Keeping come bets up

I've been playing craps for about 6 months, and still feel like a noob. I'm rusty on odds, so explain to me if this is a mistake in my favor, or a mistake on my part.

Short version: a casino allowed me to leave my come bet with odds up when I hit the point. Is this normal? Do the odds say I should do it?

Long version:

I've got a $5 come bet. A 4 is rolled. I put a $5 odds bet on it. Another 4 is rolled. I get paid $15, and the dealer asks if I want to keep my bet up or take it down.

To the math! If I keep it up, the bet will be resolved on one of 9 possible rolls: three ways to roll a 4 and six ways to roll a 7. I'll lose the $10 twice as often as I win another $15, for an EV of -$5.

But the 1/3 of the time I win $15, the bet can stay up again, and a third of the time I'll win another $15 (so a +$5 EV, right?). That puts me even, and I've still got my $10 out there to try and win again.

I think there's calculus involved here (a third of a third of a third ad infinitum), and that's where I'm rusty.

Is the casino making the mistake allowing me to keep it up, or am I making the mistake in saying yes? Where's the mistake in my math?

I have to think they allow put bets

if so the money to keep the bets up comes from your winnings, might as well come from your pocket.

something tells me you are allowing this to confuse you

basically, put bets are a bad idea, since you place the non-odds money at worse odds than allowing the bet to get there the normal way ... although if something like 10x odds are in play, they can be better than place bets, it has been said.

I think the dealer was asking if you wanted to keep your odds on the 4 up. The $5 flat bet (which pays even money) has to stay there. If it can be taken down, then taking it down is always the best choice. That bet is -EV.

$5 flat with $5 odds pays $15 1/3 of the time and loses $10 2/3 of the time:

15*(1/3) - 10*(2/3) = (15-20)/3 = -5/3

Which translates to: you expect to lose $5 for every 3 decisions. In other words, you expect to lose $5/3 per decision ($1.66). No calculus needed.

Quote: travisl

I've got a $5 come bet. A 4 is rolled. I put a $5 odds bet on it. Another 4 is rolled. I get paid $15, and the dealer asks if I want to keep my bet up or take it down.

As OG said, this is nothing more than a PUT bet. This is not a perfect rule, but it is close. If you have 6x or more odds, a PUT bet is not a bad play. But in your case, you should take the bet down. You are giving the house a huge advantage by doing a PUT bet with only single odds.
I hope this is a simple explanation, void of the higher math that confounds some people.

When you make a Come bet, you have a 2:1 advantage on the next roll of the dice. 8 ways to win (7&11), only 4 ways to lose (2,3,12). However, if you don't win on the Come out roll, your bet will now be an underdog, since there are more ways to roll a 7 than any other number. Anything else becomes your new point. In your case, you have bypassed your chance of a 2:1 advantage, and put your $5 directly on the 4, where you have a 1:2 disadvantage (the seven is going to cost you the bet, twice as often as you would win).

I got lucky the first time the dealer presented that same option to me. I was playing in Tunica, MS and had made a few $5 Come bets. But I had the full $50 odds on the bets. When one of my bets hit, the dealer asked me if I wanted to stay up. I thought the same thing as you, that the dealer was doing me some sort of favor, probably because I had been tipping. Later when I worked through exactly what was happening, I realized it was nothing more than a PUT bet. And since I had been at 10x odds, it had not been a bad play to keep it up.

Quote: odiousgambit

I have to think they allow put bets ... basically, put bets are a bad idea

Quote: RaleighCraps

As OG said, this is nothing more than a PUT bet. ... in your case, you should take the bet down. You are giving the house a huge advantage by doing a PUT bet with only single odds. I hope this is a simple explanation, void of the higher math that confounds some people.

A Put bet? I'd heard of them, but never paid attention, because it wasn't one of the low house-edge bets I've tried to teach myself. Let me read a little about it and... WHAT THE HECK?? The Wizard's craps page lists the house edge on of a Put bet on the 4 at 33.33%. I'm not seeing a worse bet on the table. While I'm at it, why don't I also throw some money on big 6, big 8, the any 7, and hand a stack to a random stranger to go play on the Big Wheel for me?

Take it down, please. Take. It. Down.

Thanks for the help, folks.

who knows what the dealer thought he was doing, choosing 1 of the 2 worst possible numbers to give it a fling.

Quote: travisl

Short version: a casino allowed me to leave my come bet with odds up when I hit the point. Is this normal? Do the odds say I should do it?

Long version:

I've got a $5 come bet. A 4 is rolled. I put a $5 odds bet on it. Another 4 is rolled. I get paid $15, and the dealer asks if I want to keep my bet up or take it down.

Usually this happens when you have a come bet on a number AND another come bet in the come box. If your come point rolls, you win that bet and the odds, but your new come bet goes to the 4. This is called "off and on". You can also have "off and on with odds", in which case the dealer would give you $5 (the 2:1 payoff minus the new odds bet), and you would still have $5 plus $5 odds on the 4.

If you did not have a bet in the come box, then the dealer was offering you a chance to shoot yourself in the foot, making an even-money bet on a 1:2 chance. The difference is that your come bet had a shot at the comeout roll, where it has a 2:1 player advantage.

Quote: travisl

A Put bet? ... I read a little about it and... WHAT THE HECK?? The Wizard's craps page lists the house edge on of a Put bet on the 4 at 33.33%.

Back up a second there and finish reading that paragraph you linked!

Yeah, it has a huge edge, but that's only if the put bet doesn't have odds attached - a terrible thing to do.

Let me say it another way: A Put or Place bet on the 4 or 10 will win 3 times and lose 6 times. A $5 Put bet with no odds pays $5 which is why the edge is so high. By comparison, a $5 Place bet will pay $9 for a much smaller edge. Similarly, a $10 Put bet (as $5 plus $5 odds) will pay $15, but a $10 Place bet will pay $18.

So, if the dealer was asking you if you wanted to keep the 4 in action by Placing it for $10, he was actually doing you a good thing. However, as already suggested, he might have been intending to keep it in action by Putting it for $5 + $5, or maybe even the whole $10 with no odds. Either way, no good.

Note that you can tell the difference by the position that the chips are stacked. If the table has a single line around the number boxes, Place bets straddle the line. If there is a second line so there is a space wide enough for a chip, Place bets are in this thin box. Either way, Come and Put bets are inside the bigger, numbered box.

Quote: goatcabin

Usually this happens when you have a come bet on a number AND another come bet in the come box. If your come point rolls, you win that bet and the odds, but your new come bet goes to the 4. This is called "off and on". You can also have "off and on with odds", in which case the dealer would give you $5 (the 2:1 payoff minus the new odds bet), and you would still have $5 plus $5 odds on the 4.

If you did not have a bet in the come box, then the dealer was offering you a chance to shoot yourself in the foot, making an even-money bet on a 1:2 chance. The difference is that your come bet had a shot at the comeout roll, where it has a 2:1 player advantage.

Based on the OPs quote from the dealer, the OP did not have a new Come bet on the felt. Otherwise, as you said, it would have been "Off and On for $15", and there would have been NO OPTION for remaining on the 4. It would have been mandatory.
If he had a Come Bet on the table, I would expect the dealer would have asked if he wanted to keep the $5 odds, but again, if that is all he had been betting, I can see the dealer not asking at all.

I think some of the confusion comes from not being clear that a PUT bet is the 1:1 bet on any point number of your choice (ie. a pass line bet after a point is established). It has no "odds"; but you are allowed to take odds on it immediately.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Quote: goatcabin

If you did not have a bet in the come box, then the dealer was offering you a chance to shoot yourself in the foot

Based on the OPs quote from the dealer, the OP did not have a new Come bet on the felt. Otherwise, as you said, it would have been "Off and On for $15", and there would have been NO OPTION for remaining on the 4. It would have been mandatory.

Exactly. With a come bet, the $5+$5 in the 4 box would have come down, with a $15 payout, and the $5 come bet would move into it. Right?

In this instance, there was no come bet, and I was paid $15, and asked "keep your bet up?" I said "no" the first time and got the $5+$5 back. I said "yes" subsequent times, and fortunately the gambling gods smiled on my foolishness as I rolled well enough for some players to win a four-point fire bet once I finally sevened out.

I'm talking beyond what I really know, but I think I was playing a three point Molly system with single odds. I also had a come bet on the 8 with single odds. I didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant to my question, but it's how I know I had no come bet waiting.

We have one casino here that will allow you to keep your comes bet up
by repaying the flat bets.

For me this is a bad idea for a couple of reasons... first the seven
may have indicated a change in the direction of the roll or my shot
changed. Either one may indicate a costly mistake.

I use come bets because I tend to repeat numbers even on a short roll,
maybe 4,4,4,6,9 7 and the only way to take advantage of that is a
come bet. On the other hand, when starting out I am not going more
than 2 come bets without hitting 1 or maybe some days even 1 come bet.

Each bet you have working is a different game with the casino and if you have
3 games going, you have to win all three just to break even, the casino has to
only get 1 seven to win them all.

I will replace a come that comes down only if that number has been the number
I have been hitting more than others during that roll or session.

dicesetter

to ask a player if he wants to do something he knows nothing about ... and what are the chances it is actually a good thing to do? if the bettor knew nothing about, say, the free odds bet, OK, fine, dealers do tell guys about that. Just about anything else, though, is probably a bet that carries a high house advantage.

dealers do this, so why?

sometimes the dealer just doesn't know it's a bad bet, he's just into all the intricacies, he had to learn them because players were wanting those bets.

sometimes, though, I think it is an extension of the chatter about the middle table bets, the dealer is trying to impress his boss by pushing high edge bets on the patrons, or something

I'm thinking this instance is the latter case [assuming we are right that it was a put bet with single odds]

I'm playing WinCraps, $20 PL & Come with 5X ($100) odds. When I win my Come bet, it asks me if I want to same bet the Come & the Odds and if I click OK, they both stay up. I should realize they are put bets with odds and I should be playing with 6X odds or higher if I'm going to do that.

I'm losing so bad playing the right side right now, I'm gonna switch to DP + DC with 6X Odds.

The dice pattern switched around and kept hitting points and knocking me off. Typical WinCraps for me.