A winning trip and another knucklehead

So just got back from Vegas (have been going on the Superbowl weekend for the last 10 years). Had a good run at craps, but as is usually the case, yet another knucklehead at the craps table. This time it was a guy from Jersey who just wanted to be the center of attention. He plops down $1000 and says everything on the field. So the dealers convert his money to chips and $1000 goes on the field. In the meantime, he's talking to his girlfriend and takes a step away from the table to look at a text. You would have thought he might have some interest in the roll having $1000 on the line, but nope, he completely misses the roll and the pit boss walks over and tells him he lost $1000. So he takes $500 more out of his pocket and goes all on the field. Loses again. Then he pulls another grand out, at which point I said, F it! Cash me out. I had no intention of having the game slowed to a snail's pace because this moron can't just give the dealer all his money at one time so he doesn't hold up the table every roll.

I used to let the knuckleheads really get to me too. But now I realize they will soon be gone. They either hit and leave, or they bust out in short order.
If they are really screwing up the game, then I just pull in all my bets, or throw $25 out on the DC, since I find just waiting at the craps table to be super boring.

Quote: bodyforlife

So just got back from Vegas (have been going on the Superbowl weekend for the last 10 years). Had a good run at craps, but as is usually the case, yet another knucklehead at the craps table. This time it was a guy from Jersey who just wanted to be the center of attention. He plops down $1000 and says everything on the field. So the dealers convert his money to chips and $1000 goes on the field. In the meantime, he's talking to his girlfriend and takes a step away from the table to look at a text. You would have thought he might have some interest in the roll having $1000 on the line, but nope, he completely misses the roll and the pit boss walks over and tells him he lost $1000. So he takes $500 more out of his pocket and goes all on the field. Loses again. Then he pulls another grand out, at which point I said, F it! Cash me out. I had no intention of having the game slowed to a snail's pace because this moron can't just give the dealer all his money at one time so he doesn't hold up the table every roll.

This behavior actually increases your monetary expectation. However, it ruins the entertainment value of the game, so your decision to leave may have been correct.

That would have definitely increased my entertainment value, but to each his own.

Quote: sabre

That would have definitely increased my entertainment value, but to each his own.

Admittedly, I think most people would find pleasure in seeing a clown like this lose. But I was down for that session and simply wanted to get some rolls in (it was also getaway day, so didn't exactly have an extended amount of time)

Hey, Raleigh Craps! Long time.

Quote: sodawater

This behavior actually increases your monetary expectation.

Huh? Are you just referring to the fact that, when play slows down, the expected loss/time is lower?

What I was wondering is if the 2 or 12 pays triple. And I would have been entertained.

This guy was actually saving you money if he was slowing down the game. I'm not sure why someone needs to give the dealers all there money at once, had he done that, someone would complain he's a show off(another thread someone complained someone bought in for 5k at BJ), also he's not expected too lose 3 in a row.

He's better off playing this way compared to guys who spend hours making "good bets" because his expected loss is less than $100.

Let's say he wins the first bet and walks away(people wouldn't be calling him a knucklehead) he didn't even expect to lose $30 in EV.If he wins he has impressed his GF and has a cool story to tell his friends along with an extra 1k. If he losses his GF will give him sympathy and he still has a story to tell. My young nephew takes it as a badge of honor with his friends explaining how he spent/lost 10k in Vegas, no biggie to him hes 23 and he makes 150k a year.

Quote: AxelWolf

This guy was actually saving you money if he was slowing down the game. I'm not sure why someone needs to give the dealers all there money at once, had he done that, someone would complain he's a show off(another thread someone complained someone bought in for 5k at BJ), also he's not expected too lose 3 in a row.

He's better off playing this way compared to guys who spend hours making "good bets" because his expected loss is less than $100.

Let's say he wins the first bet and walks away(people wouldn't be calling him a knucklehead) he didn't even expect to lose $30 in EV.If he wins he has impressed his GF and has a cool story to tell his friends along with an extra 1k. If he losses his GF will give him sympathy and he still has a story to tell. My young nephew takes it as a badge of honor with his friends explaining how he spent/lost 10k in Vegas, no biggie to him hes 23 and he makes 150k a year.

There are great points both 'pro' and 'con' to buy in's of larger amounts. There are also psych conditions as to the way certain players wager with the money/chips in front of them or in their pocket, out of sight. I am almost a sole baccarat only player and there are reasons as to why sometimes my buy in's are 2.5k, 5k, or even 20k cash on a table.

I'll also point out that if he's buying in with 20s, then yeah, it kind of sucks waiting for them to count out 50 bills. If he's buying in with 100s, a competent crew should be able to get that changed to chips in about 10 seconds.

I played with a guy that bought in with a wad of 40-60 singles each time he lost. That got old really fast.

It seems that I have seen this a lot lately. People just going crazy on the field and not playing anything else. I just watch in amazement of the bad play. Why not just go bet on red and have a better chance.

Quote: kmumf

It seems that I have seen this a lot lately. People just going crazy on the field and not playing anything else. I just watch in amazement of the bad play. Why not just go bet on red and have a better chance.

On a single zero game, absolutely correct. For those that say he saved me money, I would simply say that I go to Vegas to gamble, not to watch paint dry. If any of us want to save money, then we shouldn't even be on this forum (we should simply not play). And of course, there's no proof that comment is correct over a short run (and in this short run, the comment is incorrect).

I have won just the same wagering a couple grand here or there and hitting it for once, twice or three times. I have lost also. Someone that doesn't know me and saw me lose would say, what a knucklehead or schmuck. Then I do the same thing elsewhere and walk away a winner. I never sit or stand and grind it out. It all comes out in the wash in perspective as to what one wagers.

Quote: goatcabin

Hey, Raleigh Craps! Long time.

I was thinking the same thing Alan! Glad to see you back posting on here.
Your posts are always insightful and like Joe Friday used to say, "The facts ma'am. Just the facts."

Quote: Baccaratfrom79

I have won just the same wagering a couple grand here or there and hitting it for once, twice or three times. I have lost also. Someone that doesn't know me and saw me lose would say, what a knucklehead or schmuck. Then I do the same thing elsewhere and walk away a winner. I never sit or stand and grind it out. It all comes out in the wash in perspective as to what one wagers.

You completely missed the point (as did the other poster) of my use of the word "knucklehead". It had absolutely nothing to do with making a bet on the field.

Quote: bodyforlife

You completely missed the point (as did the other poster) of my use of the word "knucklehead". It had absolutely nothing to do with making a bet on the field.

I don't know much about craps as you all know, but this entire issue seems like one of the finer points of etiquette. Someone needs to write an Emily Post book on this game (I mean it; not a FAQ -- a real book, and I would buy it). It would probably sell well at the casino gift shops.

Now, I once saw someone threaten to cut someone if they ever again threw their money down to buy-in while the dice flew. I can understand that, although I think cutting someone over that seems a bit extreme, even for a second offense (but I hate violence). Should I consider that behavior akin to someone cutting in line (definitely a capital offense where I come from)? It really doesn't seem as rude as line-cutting to me.

But so far as I know no rule or etiquette exists about repeated buy-ins. In fact, I recall reading a post by one poster here who got miffed at the casino for some reason, and did similar stuff to annoy them. I presume that he wouldn't do that unless he had the table to himself though. But I dunno.

Even so, I can understand the psychology of repeated buy-ins. It indicates that the player expected to win. So you'd expect the hard-core optimists to do that a lot. I like hard-core optimists at a craps table (I bet the casinos like them even more).

So can someone enlighten me because I detest rudeness and would hate to offend anyone unintentionally? When I buy in I always try to wait for another come out roll. That doesn't always work. Sometimes the crew at a casino sees me, recognizes me, and knows I want a marker, and starts processing me in the middle of a session (by the way, what do you call that? the "not the come out roll" phase of the game where the shooter needs to make an established point?). I always apologize to the other players for slowing the game down when that happens, but no one has ever seemed to mind (and it doesn't happen that often even though I prefer to play at crowded tables). Should I tell the crew that I'll wait? That doesn't seem right either: it takes time for them to do their marker stuff, and I also don't like to tell professionals in another field how to go about their business.

All that said, I have noticed that when the pit boss (or whatever you call him) comes over to me to get me to sign my marker, he generally waits until the game has reached a slow point (usually a new shooter) but not always (but the exceptions happen during really busy times and even then they wait until a lull). Sometimes that can take a long time (as in: 15-20 minutes).

If you all think I have immense respect for the crew at a well-run casino: I do! (Someone should also include, in that etiquette book, how to tip properly.)

One the other hand, I really don't like shooting people who try to cut me. It gives me PTSD for months afterward (terrible nightmares and I sleep very poorly). I've never had to do that while gambling, although I now play at the more upscale casinos which, oddly enough, probably makes shooting someone in self-defense more likely (about 3% of the well-to-do players there make my skin crawl -- but I try to avoid them).

There's nothing wrong with buying in mid-roll. It's just like buying in mid-shoe at a BJ table. Only the superstitious think it's bad etiquette.

Concinnity, you can just tell them you'd like to wait until the end of the roll, if that's Ok.

I'm 99% sure they wouldn't like this, but might be worth a shot in case they don't mind -- get a marker at a different table, like an empty BJ game, then bring the chips over to the crowded craps table.

I don't care if someone buys in mid-roll, and I'm not superstitious in the least. But as concinnity stated, I try to be respectful of others. I think it's absolutely rude to make repeated buy ins like he did and slow the game down for other shooters (Hell, the guy could lose ten bets in a row and I'm sure he would have been mugged at that point, but some of you guys think "what's the big deal"). It's a very selfish thing to do (essentially it's an attitude that the game is only there to serve your purposes without regards to others...it's called having etiquette and common courtesy). And the comment about people getting mad because they think a person is showing off is ridiculous. A guy like this is a dime a dozen at the Wynn I've seen people buy in for half a million so no one was going to be impressed by his $8-10K in his pocket. He was simply trying to pretend he was Mr. Big Man with his entourage and no one at the table thought very highly of it (and there was plenty of grumbling going on). Ironically, the term "knucklehead" was used by the Pit Boss to describe him after I came back to pay off my marker. So even he acknowledged it. It would have been nice if he told the guy to buy in everything he wanted at once and to stop slowing down the game (or have him wait until the roll was over). I suspect he might have done that if the table was completely packed, but there was only about 6 players at the time. I believe the table manager wants the game to keep moving also since it slows down how much the casino can take in.

I have found this a most enlightening thread. And yes, no one would even notice that buy-in at Wynn.

Well, does this mean I should stop having fun at the craps tables because it slows things down? Maybe an example would help. And you know, a "Miss Manners" thread for craps definitely seems in order.

My last trip to Las Vegas, at a crowded table at Wynn (I love that place) I shot and made 4 as the point (I still don't know the term for the non-come-out phase of the game -- a little help here with terminology? saying "middle of the roll" doesn't seem right).

The crowd at the other end of the table very exuberantly asked me to roll a 4. The dealer next to me said, "They really want you to roll a 4." Of course, they had a lot of bets down on 4. I also had a tip for the dealer on the pass line.

So I said, "You guys want me to roll a 4?"

"Yes!" Lots of those. A fun bunch.

So I said, pointing to one very pretty lady among them, "If I roll a 4 will you give me a kiss?"

She said, "Yes!"

Well, depending on how they calculated things, that gave me either a 1/9 chance of a kiss, but more likely a 1/3 chance given how things work (they didn't seem like sticklers and didn't play any single roll bets). Presuming she kept the bargain. She seemed a trustworthy type.

Well, I rolled a 4. She jumped up and down, I crooked my finger at her, and she ran over and gave me a kiss. On the cheek. Oh well. No complaints and I admire her for her integrity.

Now, I don't *think* it slowed down the game, because this happened while the dealers paid everyone off at a crowded table. But it could have.

Did I do wrong in terms of etiquette?

Still, I think I'd do it again.

Fun story. No etiquette issue for me.

The correct etiquette is to wait until the dice are in the middle of the table under the control of the stickman, then do your buy-in. If I happen to walk up to a table that someone is on a roll and I don't want to stop the roll, I will ask the guy that I'm standing next to to sell me a few of his chips and at the same time explain that I don't want to stop the roll.

I never had anybody say no! But make sure that you explain why you are doing it. Nobody wants to see a roll come to a screeching halt because someone bought in for $20 all in dollar bills. Or did the same thing with all of their stripper money.

I had two guys that worked at a country bar, that would hit the local casino I was playing at a few times a month. They would buy-in with all of their tips, and the dealers would have to count out a big pile of dollar bills. They never know how much they had on the table and something this would take five minutes to count out both stacks of bills.

I finally got them to go to the cage before they came to the table. We became good friends and It didn't coast me anything to go to their bar to drink and dance. The only thing I had to pay for was the cab to get us there and back. No matter what you do, you will always have players buying in stopping rolls, so I tell the guys to get over it.

I only play on empty tables so we do not have players that don't know what they are doing. But nobody will play on an empty table, so when we start playing it doesn't take to long before you have others buying into the game!

If you feel that someone buying in is a bad thing turn off your bets. There is nothing superstitious about doing so! It's your money on the table and if a buy-in bothers you, turn off your bets.

You will always have good players and bad players on a craps table. There's nothing you can do about, so learn to live with it. But if you know the right thing to do, don't be the guy that will stop a roll because you are in such a big hurry to buy-in.

For most players table etiquette is something they learn at the tables. They do not read a book on it.
There are many things that table etiquette says you shouldn't do, the list is long, but most of them are just good old common sense things to do.

The number one thing is don't stop a roll, there are other players on the table that have a lot of money at risk, think before you leap. Money flying across the table while the dice are in the air is a no, no so are the late bets.