Noob looking for basic strategy +

Hello to all!

I am a novice who has played a whole 30 minutes of craps. I'm looking for some clarification on this video -

I am attempting to follow the wizard's advice on playing in a way to minimize the house edge. The problem is I don't completely understand why he's making the bets he is and when to make them.

For example, I spend time playing at the bubble craps machines because of the low min. I noticed however that the odds for the don't pass/pass line are at 2x when they are clearly higher in the video. (Reason I play at the machine is because I want to practice the strategy since I really don't know what I'm doing.)

Question 1)
I start by placing 1 dollar on the don't pass line. Once a point is rolled (let's say a 4), I place 2 dollars on the odds for the don't pass line and 1 dollar on the don't come.)
Dice is rolled, it's a 5.
Now I place another 1 dollar on the don't come and 2 dollars on the odds for don't come 5?
Is my betting for the odds for the don't come 5 correct? If not, what's a proper play for this if I want to follow the wizard's strategy. He did 6x, I did 2x because I am only allowed 2x on the odds for the don't pass line. (My terminology is probably off, feel free to correct!)

Question 2)
Continuing from the previous scenario:
Dice is rolled again, this time a 4. What's my don't come odds bet now? Same as my last one from previous question?
How many times do I keep doing the don't come and back up odds bet? Do I do it until all numbers 4,5,6,8,9,10 minus the point are covered? Do I keep re-laying the odds when a don't come number is rolled?

Question 3)
Let's say I have 1 dollar on don't pass line, 2 dollars on don't pass line odds,1 dollar on don't come, 1 dollar on don't come 5, 2 dollars or whatever the proper bet is on don't come odds for 5.
Dice is rolled again (6) and it's the point, so now the point is off. I lose the don't pass line bet and the don't pass line bet odds.
Do I remove my bets for the don't come on 5 and the don't come odds for 5?
Or should I lay don't come odds on the 6 now?
What's the right play according to wizard strategy?

Question 4)
What's a proper bankroll for a 1 dollar min table with 2x odds for don't pass? 3x odds for don't pass? Does it make a difference?

Thank you very much for all answers and responses in advance! I did a little browsing but wasn't able to find any clarification on this. The wizard has helped out a lot on learning the other games, I thought this would be a good place to learn more!

I'm a Don't player and I never lay odds.
My reasoning is if you survive the come out roll.
The odds are now in your favor to win your Don't bet.
Why make additional bets such as laying odds, they do pay true odds but you win less then you bet because now the odds are in your favor.
Its kind of boring just betting the Don't but its the best bet in the game.

Playing Come Vs. Don't Come is just about the same thing.... unless you go out to four decimal places or something.

Playing Don't Come with Odds and moreover playing Don't Come with Proper Odds is an admirable goal, but it does take a larger bankroll than it you are a Right Side bettor. If you really want to just do six x... I think the machine will let you do it if you set it that way the first time.

ALWAYS learn Right Way playing ... even if you intend to always be a Don't player... Always start out by learning Right Way playing. That way you know what you and every one else are doing and will know what you are giving up to be a Don't player.

Always remember that the "odds bet" is voluntary and despite the fact that it is NOT in the casino's favor, it is NOT in your favor either. Its fair, but it will eat up your bankroll over time.

Oh, and you do not have any obligation to continue with Come bets. Its for your convenience. I usually make two or three and then wait for the shooter to finish his roll. So if I'm on the Don't it would be: One Don't Pass Bet and Two or Three Don't Come Bets. Thats all.



Good luck.

From scenario 1, yes, you are doing it right. odds have a house edge of 0%. So whether you bet 2x or 20x odds, it really doesn't matter. In the long run and given an infinite bankroll, the expectation is that you will end up right back where you started. However, the more odds you bet, the higher the swings. This could be very fun or very bad. If you are making a passline bet of $5 with 20x odds, of course you will go bust if your bankroll is only a couple hundred.

You are also making a lot of don't come bets. They have the same house edge as don't pass. However, placing multiple don't come bets means you are risking more money. Making 5 $1 don't come bets is equivalent to 1 $5 don't pass bet.

Quote: noobofodds

Now I place another 1 dollar on the don't come and 2 dollars on the odds for don't come 5?
Is my betting for the odds for the don't come 5 correct? If not, what's a proper play for this if I want to follow the wizard's strategy. He did 6x, I did 2x because I am only allowed 2x on the odds for the don't pass line. (My terminology is probably off, feel free to correct!)

When you're laying odds for a don't come or even a don't pass bet, the odds bet on the five or nine has to be in multiples of three, because the payoff is two for three. (Six ways for a seven to roll. Four ways for a five or a nine to roll).That is why the Wizard bet $6. His payoff on the odds bet will be $4. If you laid $3 odds, you would be paid $2 on that odds bet. If you lay $2 odds, you might win $1.

For the don't bettor, the advertised limit on odds is really the payoff expressed in units. In other words, a 2X limit on a $5 table would let you lay $15 against a 5 or 9 and be paid off $10.

You don't have to worry about coming down on the DC wins. The dealer will deliver the cheques to you. In fact, some layouts clearly mark the zone that players cannot enter.

Quote: noobofodds

Hello to all!



I am attempting to follow the wizard's advice on playing in a way to minimize the house edge.

Then skip craps

Quote: terapined

I'm a Don't player and I never lay odds.
Its kind of boring just betting the Don't but its the best bet in the game.

I agree, I tried doing just don't pass line but I get antsy sitting there watching everyone bet while waiting for a certain roll to come out. I also read many places that it's the best bet.

Quote: FleaStiff

Playing Come Vs. Don't Come is just about the same thing.... unless you go out to four decimal places or something.


Oh, and you do not have any obligation to continue with Come bets. Its for your convenience. I usually make two or three and then wait for the shooter to finish his roll. So if I'm on the Don't it would be: One Don't Pass Bet and Two or Three Don't Come Bets. Thats all.

Good luck.

Thanks for the well wishes! I will learn the right way first... I would get nervous playing don't pass because and if everyone else is playing pass... which seems to be the norm. The right way would be the same except for pass line vs don't pass and come vs don't come correct? Also, thanks for clarifying on how many come bets I should play!

Quote: Avincow

You are also making a lot of don't come bets. They have the same house edge as don't pass. However, placing multiple don't come bets means you are risking more money. Making 5 $1 don't come bets is equivalent to 1 $5 don't pass bet.

Thanks for the response as well as this perspective, I didn't see it like that... I have definitely felt the huge swings in either direction because of betting too many odds.

Quote: SanchoPanza

When you're laying odds for a don't come or even a don't pass bet, the odds bet on the five or nine has to be in multiples of three, because the payoff is two for three. (Six ways for a seven to roll. Four ways for a five or a nine to roll).That is why the Wizard bet $6. His payoff on the odds bet will be $4. If you laid $3 odds, you would be paid $2 on that odds bet. If you lay $2 odds, you might be $1.

For the don't bettor, the advertised limit on odds is really the payoff expressed in units. In other words, a 2X limit on a $5 table would let you lay $15 against a 5 or 9 and be paid off $10.

You don't have to worry about coming down on the DC wins. The dealer will deliver the cheques to you. In fact, some layouts clearly mark the zone that players cannot enter.

Thanks SanchoPanza! That clears up the betting method. To clarify, if I'm playing a 1 dollar min with 2x limit, I would lay $2 don't come odds on 4 or 10 for $1 payout, $3 don't come odds on 5 or 9 for payout $2, and $6 odds on 6 or 8 for payout $5.

Regarding the coming down, I was actually asking what happens if I lose, say I started with don't pass and I see the point rolled again rather than a 7. In the video, the wizard lays odds on the point after it was rolled.

Quote: AxelWolf

Then skip craps

Haha, I'm just trying to join the fun : )

Quote: terapined

I'm a Don't player and I never lay odds.
Its kind of boring just betting the Don't but its the best bet in the game.

I agree, I tried doing just don't pass line but I get antsy sitting there watching everyone bet while waiting for a certain roll to come out. I also read many places that it's the best bet.

Quote: FleaStiff

Playing Come Vs. Don't Come is just about the same thing.... unless you go out to four decimal places or something.


Oh, and you do not have any obligation to continue with Come bets. Its for your convenience. I usually make two or three and then wait for the shooter to finish his roll. So if I'm on the Don't it would be: One Don't Pass Bet and Two or Three Don't Come Bets. Thats all.

Good luck.

Thanks for the well wishes! I will learn the right way first... I would get nervous playing don't pass because and if everyone else is playing pass... which seems to be the norm. The right way would be the same except for pass line vs don't pass and come vs don't come correct? Also, thanks for clarifying on how many come bets I should play!

Quote: Avincow

You are also making a lot of don't come bets. They have the same house edge as don't pass. However, placing multiple don't come bets means you are risking more money. Making 5 $1 don't come bets is equivalent to 1 $5 don't pass bet.

Thanks for the response as well as this perspective, I didn't see it like that... I have definitely felt the huge swings in either direction because of betting too many odds.

Quote: SanchoPanza

When you're laying odds for a don't come or even a don't pass bet, the odds bet on the five or nine has to be in multiples of three, because the payoff is two for three. (Six ways for a seven to roll. Four ways for a five or a nine to roll).That is why the Wizard bet $6. His payoff on the odds bet will be $4. If you laid $3 odds, you would be paid $2 on that odds bet. If you lay $2 odds, you might be $1.

For the don't bettor, the advertised limit on odds is really the payoff expressed in units. In other words, a 2X limit on a $5 table would let you lay $15 against a 5 or 9 and be paid off $10.

You don't have to worry about coming down on the DC wins. The dealer will deliver the cheques to you. In fact, some layouts clearly mark the zone that players cannot enter.

Thanks SanchoPanza! That clears up the betting method. To clarify, if I'm playing a 1 dollar min with 2x limit, I would lay $2 don't come odds on 4 or 10 for $1 payout, $3 don't come odds on 5 or 9 for payout $2, and $6 odds on 6 or 8 for payout $5.

Regarding the coming down, I was actually asking what happens if I lose, say I started with don't pass and I see the point rolled again rather than a 7. In the video, the wizard lays odds on the point after it was rolled.

Quote: AxelWolf

Then skip craps

Haha, I'm just trying to join the fun : )

Quote: FleaStiff

Always remember that the "odds bet" is voluntary and despite the fact that it is NOT in the casino's favor, it is NOT in your favor either. Its fair, but it will eat up your bankroll over time.

While this statement is true in one sense, it misses the mark because it doesn't account for edge averaging. When you place a pass line bet, for instance, the house starts with roughly a 1.4% edge. By taking 5x odds on the point, however, you decrease the house edge to 0.3%. Effectively, by taking odds, you allow yourself to win more when you win, not just because you're betting more, but because you're getting paid more per unit bet on odds (e.g., 6/8 pay 6-to-5, whereas the original pass line bet will just be paid 1-to-1). You need this additional money to make up for the times you lose your bet. Taking odds is absolutely necessary to maximizing your chances of winning (even though, still, you will lose over time). Fleastiff's point that taking odds will eat up your bankroll is true insofar as your bankroll isn't sufficiently large to handle a reasonable number of losses. However, if you can afford to take odds without going busto, you absolutely should take MAX ODDS every single time.

This reasoning applies for DP/DC bets, as well. The reason why you max odds on those bets, even though they pay less per unit than the original DP/DC bet, is because you are more likely to win that bet now that the point has been established. You don't max your DP/DC bet and then not take odds because you will lose to 7/11 8-out-of-36 times. You avoid that risk by lowering your DP/DC bet and then maxing odds instead.

Anyway, all of this assumes you care about math and winning. If not, then go nuts and best of luck!

Quote: noobofodds

Haha, I'm just trying to join the fun : )

when-the-fun-stops

http://www.nevadacouncil.org/understanding-problem-gambling/when-the-fun-stops/

I think I have decided this is not a good site to come to for a Craps noob [to spell it your way]

I hate to say so, but even my otherwise hero, mentor, he-the-master to me-pupil, the Wizard of Odds, made a mistake by making a video for new players and advising they play the dark side. IMO this is not a good move for a newbie at all.

In addition to that, a lot of the other advise here has been dubious or incorrect. I predict that it will get worse. It is certainly incorrect to posit in darkside play "if you survive the come out roll the odds are now in your favor ... Why make additional bets such as laying odds?" This is a canard. The bets are completely independent. Do you think the Wizard would recommend a bad bet? You can see I criticized him, but rest assured, in the matter of 'bets with best odds', the Wizard never errs.

I will get to your 4 questions but let's explore why I do not think it is a good idea for a newbie to play the darkside:

*a new player is not used to observing whether the puck is on or off when he first plays. He then is likely to place chips on the Don't Pass line while the puck is on. In the site's practice game you are just not allowed to do that, but in a real casino a nasty rebuke from the Boxman is coming ... it's a bad start.

*the other players are likely to figure out the player is a newbie, and a newbie playing darkside is going to get blasted at many tables. Even the dealers might get an attitude.

*this may not apply to you, but I think for most new players they are just more likely to pick up the concept of the game by playing rightside.

*to top it off, the advantageous change in HE to the player is monumentally insignificant

Quote:

Question 1)
I start by placing 1 dollar on the don't pass line. Once a point is rolled (let's say a 4), I place 2 dollars on the odds for the don't pass line and 1 dollar on the don't come.)
Dice is rolled, it's a 5.
Now I place another 1 dollar on the don't come and 2 dollars on the odds for don't come 5?
Is my betting for the odds for the don't come 5 correct? If not, what's a proper play for this if I want to follow the wizard's strategy. He did 6x, I did 2x because I am only allowed 2x on the odds for the don't pass line. (My terminology is probably off, feel free to correct!)

You say $1 which you will not be able to bet almost anywhere, but perhaps you mean 1 unit, which is fine. On the 5 they need to pay you 2 units for every 3 you bet. So divide the 2 by 3 ... *buzzer sound* ... you have dealer who is going to take the 2 units [most likely] when you lose but only pay you as if you bet 1 unit since 2 divided by 3 is a fraction. So, darkside, you need to be able to divide the odds bet on 5 or 9 by 3. Rightside, it needs to be an even number [all such are divisible by 2] since the payoff will be 3 to 2 on that side of things. The simplicity of that is another reason to play rightside btw.

Quote:

Question 2)
Continuing from the previous scenario:
Dice is rolled again, this time a 4. What's my don't come odds bet now? Same as my last one from previous question?
How many times do I keep doing the don't come and back up odds bet? Do I do it until all numbers 4,5,6,8,9,10 minus the point are covered? Do I keep re-laying the odds when a don't come number is rolled?

Just where at the Wizard of Odds site can you quote me where he says "be sure and have all the numbers covered"? Oh, you saw that with the other players, maybe the dealers recommended it? No. If you try to get all the numbers covered you are giving too much 'action' against the House Edge [even if you have lots of dough, you should do something different]

With the 4 or 10 you can bet even numbers again, they will need to pay you 1 to 2.

Quote:

Question 3)
Let's say I have 1 dollar on don't pass line, 2 dollars on don't pass line odds,1 dollar on don't come, 1 dollar on don't come 5, 2 dollars or whatever the proper bet is on don't come odds for 5.
Dice is rolled again (6) and it's the point, so now the point is off. I lose the don't pass line bet and the don't pass line bet odds.
Do I remove my bets for the don't come on 5 and the don't come odds for 5?
Or should I lay don't come odds on the 6 now?
What's the right play according to wizard strategy?

I hope I am answering your question by telling you your odds are always 'on' betting the darkside and all losing bets are scooped up for you, you don't have to do a thing! You can take any unresolved bets down at anytime darkside too; there is no reason to do so, but for free odds it is OK. As for whether to lay don't come odds on the new number, the answer is yes, but see my last comment.

Quote:

Question 4)
What's a proper bankroll for a 1 dollar min table with 2x odds for don't pass? 3x odds for don't pass? Does it make a difference?

If you can really find a $1 table, betting about $4 but also come betting as much as possible , I'd say with about 30-40 bucks frequently at risk then have about 10 times that amount plus something additional; $800 even.

The matter of playing your free odds: it is a zero edge bet, so it is a better bet than the line bet. On the other hand, it is correct to say that 'the free odds do not help you win more money'. But there is a catch: if you like to risk more than your line bet represents, then it makes plenty of sense. If you are only comfortable with your line bet, though, it makes no sense to add the odds bet if it is more money than you wanted to risk, thinking "I have to, to win more". The best example is the guy who puts $40 as a line bet but adds no odds at a table where the minimum is $10; that player is just a fool, he could bet $10 on the line and put the rest of that money as his free odds. The other fool is the player who only wants to bet the $10 but adds odds beyond what he is comfortable with, thinking he "has to".

Quote: FleaStiff

Playing Come Vs. Don't Come is just about the same thing.... unless you go out to four decimal places or something.

Pass Line 1.41 to Don't Pass 1.36. Two decimal places =).

Quick Notes From The Don't:
- NEVER say "no action" on a DC bet. Once the point has been established YOU ARE THE FAVORITE. Some dealers will say "6 & 8 most people take no action!" This is to sucker you in to keeping your money on the DC so if/when the 7 rolls on the next roll you lose it, instead of winning it on 6 or 8. While it's true 6 & 8 are the next most likely numbers, 7 is still the most likely number. So it's better to get your money on any of the numbers first.
- BOTH sides are just as easy to learn. Most people say "learn right first" but I don't necessarily agree with that. I'm not promoting the Don't here, but if that's the side that interests you more, then you should learn it first. Reason being is the math is EXACTLY the same on pass/don't pass, but the numbers are 'flipped' so instead of getting extra money on the pass, you're getting better chances of winning more frequently (with less payout) on the don't. Either way is almost exactly the same, mathematically. When you learn the don't, whatever makes you lose on the don't would win you on the Pass. It's that simple.
- Don't ever let superstitious 'right' players make you feel like you're doing the wrong thing, or betting against them. You're not. You're playing the game against the house, and you're just betting on something different. You'd never see someone betting "red" on a roulette wheel yell at someone betting "black" when black comes up. This is the same damn thing (if I bet on black, you lose when I win). Because of the history in craps these idiots only seem to think you're betting "against" them in craps, and no other game where you do the exact same thing.

Quote: noobofodds

I agree, I tried doing just don't pass line but I get antsy sitting there watching everyone bet while waiting for a certain roll to come out. I also read many places that it's the best bet.

Sometimes the 'boring' bets are the best bets =p. I agree though. I'm a Don't Pass / Don't Come player. I sure learned the "right" way first and got murdered. Then I found out they let you bet the other way so I did, and people were like why would you switch??? ...Um, because I'm getting murdered? A lot of "right" way players are stubborn. The mentality comes from the fact that many years ago you weren't allowed to bet the don't, so EVERY craps player was a "right" way player. This set up the mentality that it's the only way to play the game. Then when the don't was offered the "purists" of the game hated on the new way to play, especially because it won when they loss.

Quote: noobofodds

Thanks SanchoPanza! That clears up the betting method. To clarify, if I'm playing a 1 dollar min with 2x limit, I would lay $2 don't come odds on 4 or 10 for $1 payout, $3 don't come odds on 5 or 9 for payout $2, and $6 odds on 6 or 8 for payout $5.

You should learn the odds behind each number and the betting becomes extremely simple. The board is symmetrical. I'm going to reference the numbers in the way that you get paid... 6 & 8 RIGHT = win 6 for betting 5 (6-5), "don't" = win 5 for betting 6 (5-6). 5 & 9 is just 3-2, and 2-3 respectively. 4 & 10 are 2-1 and 1-2 respectively.

As you've heard people say odds bets are actually 100% 'even' money bets. From the don't perspective when the 4 is rolled and you have money on the Don't Pass, that bet is now a 2-1 favorite to win, as a 7 has twice the number of combinations than a 4 does (thus will come up twice as often in the long run).

Quote: noobofodds

Regarding the coming down, I was actually asking what happens if I lose, say I started with don't pass and I see the point rolled again rather than a 7. In the video, the wizard lays odds on the point after it was rolled.)

This is because the Wizard has money on the Don't Come (DC). So when the point is hit the DC "travels" to the number that was rolled (the former point). Then he takes odds on the newly established DC bet.

Personally, as a Don't Pass / Don't Come player I like to bet the DP, and get at least a few DC's out there. The rolls where someone throws a lot of numbers (picking you off) the whole "keep betting the DC" is extremely helpful, or could get you murdered. If they keep pointing you'll lose your stack in minutes. If they pick you off 3 times then finally crap out and you had all DC's to re-cover those points, then you'll only be down just a little on what I would consider a "horrible" roll for the don'ts. It's really your decision at that point, but as long as you're playing the DP/DC with a couple you'll generally have a good time. In the end the math works out close to the same, but you'll win more frequently from the DP/DC as it's harder to pick off all of your numbers before rolling a seven.

Quote: Romes

Pass Line 1.41 to Don't Pass 1.36. Two decimal places =).

much closer if you count pushes ... but let's crunch the numbers

$10,000 in action, which would take me 40 hours at a $5 table [with line bets, also betting the come occasionally at my usual rate]

at 0.05%... the difference is $5

I see your emoticon, no worries ... LOL

Ha, quite right... for the most part ;). Except don't players usually have more action on the table (as they have to lay more to win less). If I have my DP and a few DC's out (on average), I generally have $50 per shooter (again on average) in action. If each shooter averages about 5 minutes (seen wayyy less, and wayyy more) then I'm putting $1100 in action across per hour. So it only takes me about 10 hours to put $10,000 in action over the table =).

Thus, by the time you reach those 40 hours, I'll have an estimated $20 more than you (even though mathematically we're both losing lol)

Playing the Wizards way (where you ALWAYS place the DP and non stop DC's) you obviously would have even more action per hour and thus even more than $20 after 40 hours (compared to your style of play as you mentioned above). To be honest I play the Wizard's way about 60% of the time. 25% I play 3 DC's and call it quits unless I get picked off. Finally, about 15% of the time I'll switch to the "right" if a shooter is hot (which means I'll be throwing a lot of action out betting across as well as decent odds and come bets).

Quote: Romes

even though mathematically we're both losing lol)

yes, I symbolically slap your face with my glove for claiming you lose less than I do!! LOL

actually, I am often a darkside bettor too

Quote: odiousgambit

yes, I symbolically slap your face with my glove for claiming you lose less than I do!! LOL

actually, I am often a darkside bettor too

Hahahahahahaha I love the glove comment =P. Well then, we'll have to play the Don'ts sometime together (since we often play at the same place =D )!

Quote: nodiceman

Anyway, all of this assumes you care about math and winning. If not, then go nuts and best of luck!

Oh, I care about math and winning; its just after I've been standing for a while and downwind of that cork for awhile my math ability vanishes.

You are correct though. The odds bet dilutes the house edge. 100x odds can get you down to 0.06 percent house edge which is about as low as you is ever going to go. They pay for winning, not for making the lowest HE bet in the casino. One dealer mistake or player mistake or distracted moment with a cocktail waitress will erode the HE as will your tips.

And if you are on the Don'ts, then you need more of a bankroll. I'm always tempted to feel that the dreaded Seven is getting closer and I should make even more Don't Come bets.

Quote: Romes

we'll have to play the Don'ts sometime together (since we often play at the same place =D )!

is it time to plan another WoV East?

Quote: odiousgambit

is it time to plan another WoV East?

Yesssssssssssssss! I was so mad I missed the last one =p

Quote: nodiceman

This reasoning applies for DP/DC bets, as well. The reason why you max odds on those bets, even though they pay less per unit than the original DP/DC bet, is because you are more likely to win that bet now that the point has been established. You don't max your DP/DC bet and then not take odds because you will lose to 7/11 8-out-of-36 times. You avoid that risk by lowering your DP/DC bet and then maxing odds instead.
Anyway, all of this assumes you care about math and winning. If not, then go nuts and best of luck!

Thanks for clarification nodiceman. I'll make sure to max odds, when I believe I can!

Quote: odiousgambit

The matter of playing your free odds: it is a zero edge bet, so it is a better bet than the line bet. On the other hand, it is correct to say that 'the free odds do not help you win more money'. But there is a catch: if you like to risk more than your line bet represents, then it makes plenty of sense. If you are only comfortable with your line bet, though, it makes no sense to add the odds bet if it is more money than you wanted to risk, thinking "I have to, to win more". The best example is the guy who puts $40 as a line bet but adds no odds at a table where the minimum is $10; that player is just a fool, he could bet $10 on the line and put the rest of that money as his free odds. The other fool is the player who only wants to bet the $10 but adds odds beyond what he is comfortable with, thinking he "has to".

Thanks for the long and direct answers to my questions! I appreciate the explanation of right side vs dark side. I will make sure to learn both right and wrong side to get a better scope of the game. Those two decimal places are probably not enough to warrant me to attempt to stick to wrong side only. I'm sure that $1 tables are rare, I normally play the $1 automated bubble crap machines where you "push the button" to roll. Any recommendations against this other than that I can only get table skills and experience at the table?

I will take into account the payouts when betting now, right side needs to be denominations of even numbers and dark side is denominations of whatever number I'm on ex. denominations of 3 for 5 & 9. I don't want to end with a fraction : (

As for betting amounts, I will predetermine what I want to risk before playing, then bet a part on the line and rest on odds. Let me know if any of this still sounds wrong.

Quote: Romes

You should learn the odds behind each number and the betting becomes extremely simple. The board is symmetrical. I'm going to reference the numbers in the way that you get paid... 6 & 8 RIGHT = win 6 for betting 5 (6-5), "don't" = win 5 for betting 6 (5-6). 5 & 9 is just 3-2, and 2-3 respectively. 4 & 10 are 2-1 and 1-2 respectively.

As you've heard people say odds bets are actually 100% 'even' money bets. From the don't perspective when the 4 is rolled and you have money on the Don't Pass, that bet is now a 2-1 favorite to win, as a 7 has twice the number of combinations than a 4 does (thus will come up twice as often in the long run).

Thanks you very much for clarifying this. Now I understand why the wizard bets 6x - just so it covers all denominations. In reality, it seems to me that it would be okay for me to bet $2 for 4 & 10, $6 on 6 & 8, and $3 on 5 & 9 for the don't come lay odds (assuming I'm playing $1 table). Also, the perspective on why I am a favorite to win after a 4 is rolled was really helpful; I couldn't make the connection to why a 7 is more likely after a 4 instead of another 4.

Quote: Romes

Personally, as a Don't Pass / Don't Come player I like to bet the DP, and get at least a few DC's out there. The rolls where someone throws a lot of numbers (picking you off) the whole "keep betting the DC" is extremely helpful, or could get you murdered. If they keep pointing you'll lose your stack in minutes. If they pick you off 3 times then finally crap out and you had all DC's to re-cover those points, then you'll only be down just a little on what I would consider a "horrible" roll for the don'ts. It's really your decision at that point, but as long as you're playing the DP/DC with a couple you'll generally have a good time. In the end the math works out close to the same, but you'll win more frequently from the DP/DC as it's harder to pick off all of your numbers before rolling a seven.

I still have a question regarding this however. From reading your post as well as odiousgambits' post, I should NOT cover all don't come numbers. My bankroll definitely got slaughtered when I tried to do this. You seem to suggest doing just covering three numbers for dont come and placing odds - then just waiting for a 7. If one of the three numbers gets picked off, do you then recover another one or just work with two? Or does this depend on personal preference and bankroll? Just clarifying, it looks like you recommend that it's up to me.

Thank you very much and to everyone who has responded!

It's refreshing to run into such a tactful new member, thanks.

Just remember not all the advice you will get on the internet will be good advice. For the most part, you did well this time though. [I had predicted it would get worse, so I take it back]

I would say it is more bankroll and personal preference, in that order. Whether you re-establish some bets that have been knocked off.

The main thing is do not feel compelled to do so. Relax, bet according to your own strategy and you choose what to do but don't feel compelled by some hard and fast rule of what a mathematician says is optimal.

Quote: FleaStiff

And if you are on the Don'ts, then you need more of a bankroll. I'm always tempted to feel that the dreaded Seven is getting closer and I should make even more Don't Come bets.

+1

You and odious are so right about bankroll...if you have very limited funds, DP is just too pricey. But like Odious points out, if you have $40 to gamble, it's best to figure out what the min bet on the DP/DC or P/C line is such that you can take max odds and have all $40 in play (or do so on multiple numbers). Where I play, it's a $10 min, so I load up anywhere from $60-$180 so I can get 1-3 P/DP bets out with full odds. Then I pray.

Quote: terapined

I'm a Don't player and I never lay odds.
My reasoning is if you survive the come out roll.
The odds are now in your favor to win your Don't bet.
Why make additional bets such as laying odds, they do pay true odds but you win less then you bet because now the odds are in your favor.
Its kind of boring just betting the Don't but its the best bet in the game.

Fuzzy reasoning here. If you bet the money you would have laid on odds on your next DP bet, you are subjecting it to the .140 house advantage. Minimizing flat bets minimizes expected loss.

point is 5
if you lay odds ev for that money is $0
if, instead, you put that money on your next DP bet, ev is negative
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: Avincow

From scenario 1, yes, you are doing it right. odds have a house edge of 0%. So whether you bet 2x or 20x odds, it really doesn't matter. In the long run and given an infinite bankroll, the expectation is that you will end up right back where you started. However, the more odds you bet, the higher the swings. This could be very fun or very bad. If you are making a passline bet of $5 with 20x odds, of course you will go bust if your bankroll is only a couple hundred.

You are also making a lot of don't come bets. They have the same house edge as don't pass. However, placing multiple don't come bets means you are risking more money. Making 5 $1 don't come bets is equivalent to 1 $5 don't pass bet.

Not exactly. The ev is the same either way, but the variance is higher on the 1 $5 bet. Standard deviation for the $5 bet is $4.995, for five $1 bets it's $2.24, because there are more different possible outcomes.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: FleaStiff

Playing Come Vs. Don't Come is just about the same thing.... unless you go out to four decimal places or something.

Playing Don't Come with Odds and moreover playing Don't Come with Proper Odds is an admirable goal, but it does take a larger bankroll than it you are a Right Side bettor.

Risk of ruin is really about the same on the darkside. Having to lay the long end of the odds is mostly balanced by the higher probability of winning points on DP/DC.

Quote: FleaStiff

Always remember that the "odds bet" is voluntary and despite the fact that it is NOT in the casino's favor, it is NOT in your favor either. Its fair, but it will eat up your bankroll over time.

What eats one's bankroll up over time is the HA on the flat bet. The odds bet is more of a short-term risk; the longer you play, the more likely it is that your odds bets will even out, not so for the flat bet.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: odiousgambit

I think I have decided this is not a good site to come to for a Craps noob [to spell it your way]

I hate to say so, but even my otherwise hero, mentor, he-the-master to me-pupil, the Wizard of Odds, made a mistake by making a video for new players and advising they play the dark side. IMO this is not a good move for a newbie at all.

I agree completely. If you're playing Bubble Craps, then the social aspect against darkside is missing, but you still have the problem (obvious from the OP's questions) of trying to figure out darkside odds. Even the passline is rather confusing, because of its two-part nature. It's probably a good idea to begin with more simple bets. If you can find a casino with triple-12 or -2, the field bet is not bad, and it's easy to understand -- you either win or lose and you can make the bet every roll. It also demonstrates the difference between numbers (2 3 4 9 10 11 12) and combinations (16 to win, 20 to lose). This is just to get your feet wet, not a way to play regularly. From there, maybe proceed to placing the 6 or 8, bets that don't resolve every roll. This introduces you to bets you have to give the dealer. Next would be the passline without odds, followed by taking odds. Only after all that would I recommend the don't pass. Come/DC bets and odds can be really confusing and not for newbies.

Cheers,
Alan Shank