Free buy 10 or 4
If this is the case, doesn't a free buy bet beat a pass line with odds as far as HE?
If it's the first, then free buy is better. If it's the second, then it depends on how much there is on odds vs flat bet.
Quote: DeMangoPretty popular bet at a few casinos in NM. Buys start at $10. Also both the 2 and 12 pays triple in the field
I'm pretty sure both of those bats have a zero house advantage. I have no idea how the house makes money on those unless the dice are weighted to come up with sevens more often (which doesn't make sense) or if they expect to make it up on other bets.
Quote: hwccdealerI'm pretty sure both of those bats have a zero house advantage. I have no idea how the house makes money on those unless the dice are weighted to come up with sevens more often (which doesn't make sense) or if they expect to make it up on other bets.
How does the house make money on giving away buffets?
When I first encountered the free bet on the 4/10 at a Michigan casino almost a decade ago, I was FLABBERGASTED at its existence! Recently I am finding --tho have not yet actually played it elsewhere-- that this bet is more common than I would have EVER imagined 10-and-counting-back years ago...Presumably it brings people in. My experience at this rail has been that players bet the 4/10 not much more often than they otherwise would and continue obliviously to bet their hardways, etc in their usual manner. Like all bank craps tables this one--and I venture to guess all of them with this bet-- remains and is a virtual license to print money for this great lakes establishment.
As to the free field, I have been unable to find one -- and just posted a new thread asking if anyone knows of one. NM was mentioned here as having it at places but my inquiries (phone calls)--while far from exhausted: there are a lot of casinos in NM -- have so far revealed that some places USED TO have it but no longer do. My wild guess is --the free 4 & 10 being so successful in attracting PLAYERS -- the triple 2 & 12 was a failed experiment, attracting too much MONEY. Even newbies -- hell, especially newbies -- like the field...
The Tough Craps player of course would make >>ONLY<< those free bets on those layouts...tom p
Quote: betwthelinesAs to the free field, I have been unable to find one -- and just posted a new thread asking if anyone knows of one.
http://www.santaanastar.com/gaming/table-games/craps
It doesn't state so on their website, but they have it, if you look at the craps intro video you can see the triple on both the 2 and 12 layout, plus it's been mentioned here before.
Quote: ahiromuhttp://www.santaanastar.com/gaming/table-games/craps
It doesn't state so on their website, but they have it, if you look at the craps intro video you can see the triple on both the 2 and 12 layout, plus it's been mentioned here before.
but he says they changed that
It's not meant for you.Quote: betwthelinesForgive my naivety Axel, for I am brand new here but isn't the subtitle of this forum "Discussion about all things craps, except dice setting." ? Perhaps you are being facetious, but you did post it twice...no worries >/:^)...tom p
Its just something that re enforces my opinion... that there aren't any real DI's.
The field is 2x on the 2 and 3x on the 12.
A free buy on the place 4 and 10 with a $5 minimum.
I actually bought in for $100, was down to my last $10, rebought in for another $100 and left the table a few minutes later with $37.
It's one of those short tables that's very bouncy.
Lots of center action too.
The house can figure on making money because experience shows that as a rule the players run out of money and time before it does.Quote: hwccdealerI'm pretty sure both of those bats have a zero house advantage. I have no idea how the house makes money on those unless the dice are weighted to come up with sevens more often (which doesn't make sense) or if they expect to make it up on other bets.
It just takes a longer grind this way than those $25 and $50 minimums with so-so rules.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe house can figure on making money because experience shows that as a rule the players run out of money and time before it does.
It just takes a longer grind this way than those $25 and $50 minimums with so-so rules.
This is completely and totally incorrect. The house makes NO MONEY -- ZERO -- on 0% house edge bets because the house has a bigger bankroll.
Get this through your head because it is a common misconception. THE HOUSE GAINS NOTHING FROM HAVING A BIGGER BANKROLL.
The 0% bets are offered as a "loss-leader" (yes it costs the house money to pay dealers to book these bets, pay for lighting and felt, etc) for much the same reasons supermarkets sometimes offer items below cost: because it will bring customers in who will invariably spend money on other high-margin items.
Casinos do this all the time with free rooms, free bets, match play, free meals -- all of this is to get you in the door so you gamble at retail price.
Quote: sodawaterThis is completely and totally incorrect. The house makes NO MONEY -- ZERO -- on 0% house edge bets because the house has a bigger bankroll.
the Wizard has answered this too
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/332-question-for-the-wizard-gamblers-ruin/#post503
The fact remains that it runs counter to logic to maintain that casinos, in this case accepting bettors who wager only the buy bets with no house edge, would have a problem with variance's eating up the much smaller bankrolls of the bettors. Or even with constraints of time. It would be interesting to see whether anyone cares to opine that he or she has seen most people, including or even especially those restricted to no-edge wagers, leave the table as winners. The "hold" figures for the tables speak convincingly.Quote: sodawaterThis is completely and totally incorrect. The house makes NO MONEY -- ZERO -- on 0% house edge bets because the house has a bigger bankroll. Get this through your head because it is a common misconception. THE HOUSE GAINS NOTHING FROM HAVING A BIGGER BANKROLL. The 0% bets are offered as a "loss-leader" (yes it costs the house money to pay dealers to book these bets, pay for lighting and felt, etc) for much the same reasons supermarkets sometimes offer items below cost: because it will bring customers in who will invariably spend money on other high-margin items. Casinos do this all the time with free rooms, free bets, match play, free meals -- all of this is to get you in the door so you gamble at retail price.
Quote: SanchoPanzaThe fact remains that it runs counter to logic to maintain that casinos, in this case accepting bettors who wager only the buy bets with no house edge, would have a problem with variance's eating up the much smaller bankrolls of the bettors. Or even with constraints of time. It would be interesting to see whether anyone cares to opine that he or she has seen most people, including or even especially those restricted to no-edge wagers, leave the table as winners. The "hold" figures for the tables speak convincingly.
Okay, using this:
http://www.beatingbonuses.com/simulator_java.htm
And a custom paytable where .666666 results in -1 and .333333 results in 2 units won. Every player will start with a bankroll of fifty units and make 2,500 bets of 1 unit and I will run 100,000 such simulations five times:
Bust Rate: 47.87%
Loss: 58.11%
Gain: 41.89%
Best Win: 302 Units
Average Return: +0.02 units
Bust Rate: 47.68%
Loss: 57.77%
Gain: 42.23%
Best Win: 323 Units
Average Return: +0.32 units
Bust Rate: 47.95%
Loss: 58.21%
Gain: 41.79%
Best Win: 290 Units
Average Return: +0.04 Units
Bust Rate: 48%
Loss: 58.19%
Gain: 41.81%
Best Win: 305 Units
Average Return: -0.06 units
Bust: 47.89%
Loss: 58.15%
Gain: 41.85%
Best Win: 329 units
Average Return: -0.11 units
As you can see, it stays pretty balanced, overall, as it should.
Quote: sodawaterThis is completely and totally incorrect. The house makes NO MONEY -- ZERO -- on 0% house edge bets because the house has a bigger bankroll.
Get this through your head because it is a common misconception. THE HOUSE GAINS NOTHING FROM HAVING A BIGGER BANKROLL.
The 0% bets are offered as a "loss-leader" (yes it costs the house money to pay dealers to book these bets, pay for lighting and felt, etc) for much the same reasons supermarkets sometimes offer items below cost: because it will bring customers in who will invariably spend money on other high-margin items.
Casinos do this all the time with free rooms, free bets, match play, free meals -- all of this is to get you in the door so you gamble at retail price.
You are completely correct, Soda...Sancho and others are - or were - understandably confused possibly because of the well-documented differential between the drop and the house edge. I'm not sayin' --but it may well be the case that less than 50% of the PLAYERS who make only these free bets (something of a non sequitur in itself since there are only two KNOWN Tough Craps players IN THE ENTIRE WORLD) walk away having lost, yet OVERALL the house makes ZERO...In short I think the misperception centers around INDIVIDUAL results in terms of w/l percentages, NOT dollar amounts vs overall house results...
...I have speculated this before on this thread I think , possibly the Tough Craps thread, that the santa ana star in Albuquerque withdrew their free field bet--apparently as recently as this week--because it was not meeting their loss leader goals. My experience at a Michigan casino that has had the free 4/10 bet for at least a decade (utterly flabbergasting the Tough Craps player when he first encountered it) has been that players bet the 4/10 not much more-I suppose just slightly more-often than they otherwise would and continue obliviously to bet their hardways, etc...thus it is an effective loss leader, attracting PLAYERS...the field, on the other hand, with its action on every roll and understood more or less intuitively (hell, newbies especially are attracted to it) was probably attracting too much MONEY...tom p
PS I am still looking to find a layout with the free field
I wouldn't call those who bet the hardways "Tough Craps" players.Quote: betwthelinesMy experience at a Michigan casino that has had the free 4/10 bet for at least a decade (utterly flabbergasting the Tough Craps player when he first encountered it) has been that players bet the 4/10 not much more-I suppose just slightly more-often than they otherwise would and continue obliviously to bet their hardways, etc.
LOL who's calling them that?? No one...tom p
I am recently back from a southwestern car trek and --in fact prompted by this forum -- made a small detour to the Albuquerque area to shoot some craps!
At least 3 casinos, possibly more, in the area offer the free buy on the 4 & 10 -- a fact that by itself continues to amaze me, but also given the fact that in many excursions to casinos all over the country I have encountered this at only other place, turtle creek in Michigan, where it has existed for approx. a decade...
Santa Ana Star, Route 66 and Isleta Resort offer this no-vig bet. The free field--triple on both the 2 & 12--was offered at one time at all of these--and quite recently at SAS-- but is, sadly no longer available. I am still looking for such a bet!! HELP ANYONE??
I did not play at Isleta but the best deal in the area for the Tough Craps player is at Rt 66 where you can bet up to $500 free on the 4/10 (it was only $100 at SAS), odds are 20x and at least on the weekdays I was there they offered a $1 minimum bet until 6PM, when it changed to $3. My last session was late sun evening and the minimum then was $5.
The dice were extremely wicked and, alas, I lost my shirt...but that is nothing new now, is it...tom p
Quote: odiousgambitthe Wizard has answered this too
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/332-question-for-the-wizard-gamblers-ruin/#post503
I'm not second-guessing the Wizard's math, I presume he's 100% correct.
But I'm wondering: is there any scenario where the casino's enormous bankroll works to its advantage? If my bankroll is $100, and the casino's bankroll is $10 million, surely the house must have some sort of advantage-- at the very least, it can withstand a significantly longer losing streak than I can. But this is not the case! Apparently bankroll size is irrelevant. All that matters is the house edge, and absolutely nothing else.
Quote: renoI'm not second-guessing the Wizard's math, I presume he's 100% correct.
But I'm wondering: is there any scenario where the casino's enormous bankroll works to its advantage? If my bankroll is $100, and the casino's bankroll is $10 million, surely the house must have some sort of advantage-- at the very least, it can withstand a significantly longer losing streak than I can. But this is not the case! Apparently bankroll size is irrelevant. All that matters is the house edge, and absolutely nothing else.
For simplicity, your bankroll is $100 and the casino's bankroll is 5,904,800:
300-900-2700-8100-24300-72900-218,700-656,100-1,968,300-5,904,900
That means, with bold play, (the numbers reflected are total bankroll after wins) the player needs to win 10 consecutive such bets to bust the casino. The probability of winning is 1/3, thus:
(1/3)^10 * 5904800 = 99.9983064912
((1)-(1/3)^10) * 100 = 99.9983064912
99.9983064912 - 99.9983064912 = 0
Ergo, no House Edge.
The probability of a single player winning is: 0.00001693508, with one attempt, so it would appear the casino has an advantage as it is expected (probability) to take out a good many players before one wins. Interestingly, with this 1 in 59,049.0272263 shot at success, this even tilts against the casino (in terms of being ahead or behind overall) at a point, just one example:'
(1-0.00001693508)^40930 = 0.49999424343
It is, at that point, where probability dictates that it is more likely than not that (at least) one player should have been successful. At that point, the casino is expected to actually be down substantially, but it would all equal zero given infinite attempts. On a 1 in 59,049 cycle, though, that would take a long time to play out.
Quote: renoI'm not second-guessing the Wizard's math, I presume he's 100% correct.
But I'm wondering: is there any scenario where the casino's enormous bankroll works to its advantage? If my bankroll is $100, and the casino's bankroll is $10 million, surely the house must have some sort of advantage-- at the very least, it can withstand a significantly longer losing streak than I can. But this is not the case! Apparently bankroll size is irrelevant. All that matters is the house edge, and absolutely nothing else.
You are thinking of one player vs. the casino, instead of all players vs. the casino. Not the same thing at all.
I think it's prefectly reasonable to offer some free bets, it makes the player's money last longer and perhaps encourages them to play again as they perceived "better value". Yes, the occasional AP (or in this case 0AP!), might just play the 0%HE bets, but in the UK the max was £25 (on a £1 table).
Some time ago, especially in Scotland, Bingo halls offered 0% take (aka "Par Fee") on the main session (i.e. the books which paid the bigger prizes and "last house"). This "put money on the board", i.e. gave larger prizes, and encouraged more people in. As most people, over 95%, still bought the other books, the bingo hall still made money. A few people, like me, actually bought two sets of mains (12 books).
I think it's a nice idea, on a low stakes table, to offer something like this.
Quote: betwthelinesNew Mexico update.
I am recently back from a southwestern car trek and --in fact prompted by this forum -- made a small detour to the Albuquerque area to shoot some craps!
At least 3 casinos, possibly more, in the area offer the free buy on the 4 & 10 -- a fact that by itself continues to amaze me, but also given the fact that in many excursions to casinos all over the country I have encountered this at only other place, turtle creek in Michigan, where it has existed for approx. a decade...
Santa Ana Star, Route 66 and Isleta Resort offer this no-vig bet. The free field--triple on both the 2 & 12--was offered at one time at all of these--and quite recently at SAS-- but is, sadly no longer available. I am still looking for such a bet!! HELP ANYONE??
I did not play at Isleta but the best deal in the area for the Tough Craps player is at Rt 66 where you can bet up to $500 free on the 4/10 (it was only $100 at SAS), odds are 20x and at least on the weekdays I was there they offered a $1 minimum bet until 6PM, when it changed to $3. My last session was late sun evening and the minimum then was $5.
The dice were extremely wicked and, alas, I lost my shirt...but that is nothing new now, is it...tom p
Thank you VERY much for this, I have family in Albuquerque and was thinking I could do this while in town. The free 4 & 10 is great, but a free field bet would be a REALLY fun game in and of itself.
Quote: BoulderDamItCan someone plainly explain the free pay as if I were brand new to the game?
A "buy" bet on the 4 or 10 is a bet that wins if the 4 (or 10) is rolled before a 7. Since there are three dice combinations adding to 4 and six adding to 7, the 7 is twice as likely to show. The payoff is 2 to 1, so the expected value of the bet is zero.
six ways to lose 1 unit = 6
three ways to win 2 units = 6
Normally the house charges a 5% "vig" on this bet, $1 on a $20 bet. But in these rare cases, they do not charge the "vig", so over time the player is just as likely to be ahead as the casino is.
A "lay" bet is just the opposite, betting the 7 will show before the 4 (or 10).
(1) If there was a simple game, heads or tails, then a fair price would be "Evens". This means you stake £100 and hope to win £100, there is no House Edge, in the long run you neither win nor lose. Thus the bookie makes no money: say it takes £100 on Heads and £100 on Tails, there is no profit left over once it has paid the winning bet.
However in normal circles, the Super Bowl was a good example, they might offer 10/11 or -110: either of these means you stake £110 and hope to win £100 (+ your stake). In this instance the casino/bookmaker makes its money because on average it takes in £110 on heads and £110 on tails but only has to pay out £210 and keeps £10 profit.
(2) Craps (4 or 10). The basic game is to throw two die and bet on the total. Since each dice is six sided each of the faces 1 thru 6 have 1/6th chance of coming up, so each combination of two dice has 1/36th. This means, for instance, there are six ways to throw a total of 7 (1-6 2-5 3-4 4-3 5-2 6-1), and three ways to throw a four (1-3 2-2 3-1). The [place] bet on 4 wins if there's a 4 before a 7, all other throws are ignored. Thus a fair bet would pay 2/1, since out of the nine ways of getting a result, there are three ways to win and six ways to lose. Over the entire 36 possibilities for £100 bets, the bookie would take six "7s" (6*£100=£600) and pay out three "4s" (3*£200=£600) - i.e. no profit.
Normally casinos offer odds such as 9.5/5 (UK) or less or take a fee to make the bet (or on the winnings), thus they would still pay out on three "4s" but the total paid would be less than £600 (UK:3*£190=£570) and leave profit (£30).
In this thread some casinos are/were offering true odds for 4 (and 10) i.e. 2/1.
Hope this helps.
So after the point comes, it's laying the bet on the numbes as you would a 6 or 8?
There's no AP play on a free buy. APs aren't interested in a 0% edge. They want +EV. There's no comp hustling either, because all they have to do is tell the pit not to rate someone if all they're playing is the free buy.
Quote: BoulderDamItOh ok, I think I understand what you guys mean. It's been 10 years since I've been to Vegas and I have only played Craps at Sycuan or Barona. I think they both have this option, but I'm not sure.
So after the point comes, it's laying the bet on the numbes as you would a 6 or 8?
Neither Sycuan or Barona offers a free buy on the 4/10. Both charge $1 vig for a $25 buy. Viejas does offer a free buy.
Quote: PBguyNeither Sycuan or Barona offers a free buy on the 4/10. Both charge $1 vig for a $25 buy. Viejas does offer a free buy.
PBguy (think I understand your name now ;) ), how does that work? The Vig is paid when you bet or on the win?
I just got a couple of bucks free for my birthday for Barona, maybe I should go check it out.
Quote: BoulderDamItPBguy (think I understand your name now ;) ), how does that work? The Vig is paid when you bet or on the win?
I just got a couple of bucks free for my birthday for Barona, maybe I should go check it out.
At Barona and Sycuan if you want to buy the 4/10 it costs you $26. When you win you get paid $49. At Viejas it's a "free buy" so it costs you $25 and you get paid $49 because you pay the $1 vig on the win.
The only real difference between Barona and Viejas is that Barona shuffles the cards after every roll while at Viejas it's after each shooter 7's out.
I may be up at Barona playing tomorrow night.
Wouldn't DI's be interested? They claim to beat anenegative bets Imagine what damage they could do with this situation. I'm aamazed the casino isn't broke and DI's are still playing LVQuote: sc15offering a free buy or 20/100x odds is a much safer marketing scheme for casinos than free play or whatever.
There's no AP play on a free buy. APs aren't interested in a 0% edge. They want +EV. There's no comp hustling either, because all they have to do is tell the pit not to rate someone if all they're playing is the free buy.
Heck, as long as the 6 cards were shuffled and placed face down after every roll, the shooter could just select the sides he wanted face up and place them on the table, and it would still be a fair game, as long as the cards weren't marked or otherwise distinguishable from their backs.
I think you would also need to use two sets of 6 cards - one for each die - to prevent automatic hardways.
Quote: Dalex64It just occurred to me that card craps is the answer to the problem of not hitting the back wall on your roll.
Heck, as long as the 6 cards were shuffled and placed face down after every roll, the shooter could just select the sides he wanted face up and place them on the table, and it would still be a fair game, as long as the cards weren't marked or otherwise distinguishable from their backs.
I think you would also need to use two sets of 6 cards - one for each die - to prevent automatic hardways.
Huh? Some casinos do use two sets of six cards, but there is no reason to. If both dice point to the same card, it's a hardway; so what? What's "automatic"?
Hmm. I also just showed that you would never 7-out.
So, to eliminate the DI menace, you would need two sets of 6 cards.
Really, you wouldn't need dice at all anymore and just let the "shooter" pick two cards, but I suppose that is how you can show that the dice have no impact on the outcome, so you can play the game in California.
Quote: PBguyAt Barona and Sycuan if you want to buy the 4/10 it costs you $26. When you win you get paid $49. At Viejas it's a "free buy" so it costs you $25 and you get paid $49 because you pay the $1 vig on the win.
The only real difference between Barona and Viejas is that Barona shuffles the cards after every roll while at Viejas it's after each shooter 7's out.
I may be up at Barona playing tomorrow night.
Thanks, I completely understand now.
Vig after win is obviously better than vig before the win, but neither of those is "free" in the sense that the no-vig bet is. It's called free because you don't pay for it, lol. It has a 0% house edge.
There was a poster here (klimate something) who went to one of those casinos and played table minimum on the pass line and up to $500 or more on the free 4/10 buy, and they still comped him like a high roller. Which is terrible business practice, but good for him. This is also the guy who went broke playing 1000x odds at Riviera.
Quote: AcesAndEights
...There was a poster here (klimate something) who went to one of those casinos and played table minimum on the pass line and up to $500 or more on the free 4/10 buy, and they still comped him like a high roller. Which is terrible business practice, but good for him...
This was true at Route 66 when I played there last month. I found it hard to believe how good the comps were. The very first time I was there after just a day and 1/2 -- perhaps 10 hours at the rail -- I had enough play to get a free room at the hotel (very nice) and all the meals I needed. (the "sign up" bonus, if I recall correctly, consisted of some black jack match play plus one other thing I cant remember...) I almost certainly HAD to have been rated on the free play...
Before 6pm -- on weekdays at least -- the table minimum is $1. At one point I looked at my bets and had $50 each on the free 4&10, one $1 pass with $15 odds and one $1 come with $16 odds: $133 in play and only $2 of that was subject to vig (and only 1.4% at that).
With their 20x odds and $1 minimum (even after 6p it changed to just $3) Route 66 is in my opinion one of the best deals around for the Tough Craps player...tom p
Quote: betwthelines...I found it hard to believe how good the comps were...I almost certainly HAD to have been rated on the free play...
While I allus thought you were not comped on losses but rather level of play, a poster on that ratholing thread said some places do comp on losses so that could have been it too as I lost my ass there at rt 66...tom p
Quote: IbeatyouracesTurtle Creek no longer offers the free buy on 4 or 10.
that is NOT true!! i just made a call 30 seconds ago to the craps pit there, plus i was there on 9/12/2015 and it was free 4/10 as usual....what IS true is that the bets are no longer marked on the layout...previously "FREE BUY" was prominently marked in the 4/10 boxes...believe you me that was the FIRST thing i noticed when i walked up to the rail last month....before making any bets i immediately asked if the 4/10 was no longer free...no, it was still free and still paid fairly...and is today...i am speculating (just now actually) that the layout was changed because they now have the ATS "bonus" bet, something that i do not remember them having before (i could be wrong about that since it is something i would never bet myself) and i believe that is a proprietary bet meaning you have to use the felt provided by contractor and like virtually all layouts does not have those free bets marked...
the fact is i would have been very much surprised---shocked even! if they have discontinued these free bets since they have featured them for about ten years or more, for a while i think the only place in the country that offered such....
beatyouraces, sorry but (i am relieved to say) your facts are wrong...
tom "home runs are sometimes boring" p
