Craps: "You can leave it up."

While at Belterra in Vevay, Indiana, my wife and I were playing Craps. She did her thing, playing pass line with odds, and I was doing mine, the same with come bets. I had a 5 and an 8 coming, $5 each with $10 odds. I had a pass line bet on a working point of 9, $5 with $10. The 9 hit, I get paid, and start a new pass line bet. I ask for my odds to be working on the come out roll. The bittersweet 7 comes up, winning the pass, losing the come bets with odds.

But wait! The dealer says, "Do you want to leave it up?" I asked how much that was, because this was the first time I had ever been asked that, and wanted to make sure I understood what he was asking. "$30," the total of my come bets + odds. I said yes, and handed over the $30.

A bit later, the same situation occurred, and I put up another $30. This time, the stick spoke up, and said something along the lines of, "That's probably not your best bet."

Sidenote: I also saw a fellow player with come bets, with odds, but not working the odds. He only had to put up $5 per come bet to "leave it up," as the odds were not in jeopardy.

I didn't want to make this thread into a poll, as the answers I expect to hear could run the gamut. In general...

When asked if you'd like to leave up come bets on point numbers, is that a bargain?
Or was the stick person right, and I should've just let the bets fall and work my way back up?

Also...
Did I just end up making a put bet?
Since I was only playing double odds, I know a put bet isn't economical. Is my understanding correct, that you need to have at least 5x odds for a put bet to be equivalent to a come + odds?

Finally...
If it wasn't a put bet, was the dealer actually allowed to make that deal with me?

Quote: Dween

While at Belterra in Vevay, Indiana, my wife and I were playing Craps. She did her thing, playing pass line with odds, and I was doing mine, the same with come bets. I had a 5 and an 8 coming, $5 each with $10 odds. I had a pass line bet on a working point of 9, $5 with $10. The 9 hit, I get paid, and start a new pass line bet. I ask for my odds to be working on the come out roll. The bittersweet 7 comes up, winning the pass, losing the come bets with odds.

But wait! The dealer says, "Do you want to leave it up?" I asked how much that was, because this was the first time I had ever been asked that, and wanted to make sure I understood what he was asking. "$30," the total of my come bets + odds. I said yes, and handed over the $30.

A bit later, the same situation occurred, and I put up another $30. This time, the stick spoke up, and said something along the lines of, "That's probably not your best bet."

Sidenote: I also saw a fellow player with come bets, with odds, but not working the odds. He only had to put up $5 per come bet to "leave it up," as the odds were not in jeopardy.

I didn't want to make this thread into a poll, as the answers I expect to hear could run the gamut. In general...

When asked if you'd like to leave up come bets on point numbers, is that a bargain?
Or was the stick person right, and I should've just let the bets fall and work my way back up?

Also...
Did I just end up making a put bet?
Since I was only playing double odds, I know a put bet isn't economical. Is my understanding correct, that you need to have at least 5x odds for a put bet to be equivalent to a come + odds?

Finally...
If it wasn't a put bet, was the dealer actually allowed to make that deal with me?

If I understand this, you lost the 5 and 8 with odds. By allowing you to replace the come bets it would be the same thing as just putting $5 on the pass line after the point of 5 or 8 has been established (forget about the free odds because they have zero EV). So, these aren't attractive bets at all. In fact, they are worse than any prop bets on the layout, since you're denying yourself the come out roll where there are 8 ways to win and only 4 ways to lose.

You made a "put" bet when you did that.

Yes he is, unless the casino restricts put bets. Most casinos allow put bets. The ones that don't allow put bets are generally the ones with 10x (or more) odds.

You would have been better off to PLACE a $15 five or 9 ($15 pays $21), instead of put 5 w/ 10 odds (pays $20 total).

But generally, no, you don't want to make put bets unless you can take advantage of the 10x or better odds.

4x odds on the 5 or 9 // or 5x odds on the 6 or 8, will pay the same if it's a put with odds or total bet as a place bet.

ie: 5 with 20 odds on 9 will pay 5 flat + 30 odds = 35 total. Placing a $25 9 will pay $35.
5 with 25 odds on 8 will pay 5 flat + 30 odds = 35 total. Placing a $30 8 will pay $35.

5 with 18 odds on 9 will pay 5 flat + 27 odds = 32 total. Placing a $23 9 would pay $32.20 (obviously you don't get the extra $0.20, but you see the point, placing would be better).
5 with 23 odds will pay 5 flat + 27.6 = 32.6 total. Placing a $28 8 would pay $32.66666 (again, you don't get that extra $0.66, but placing would be better).

PS: I'm not saying someone would make a $23 place bet on the 9 or a $28 place on 8, just showing what the return would be if you did, to show at which point a put bet or a place bet make more sense.

If you're at the break-even point and have the option, you'd be better off by making a COME BET and letting it travel to the number, because you have +EV on the come-out roll. After that, just put your odds on top. Of course, this'd mean that you can't pick which number you get, unlike a place or put bet where you can say "I want it on the 8" or w/e.



The 4 and 10 act a bit differently because you can place (9:5 payout) the bet, buy it (upfront or after). But, you should not make a put bet if you have 3x odds (5 with 15). 5 with 15 pays $35 total, whereas a $20 buy would pay $39.

Yes, these were indeed "Put Bets"... a "phantom" line bet is made, the bettor gives up the right to win on a 7, the bet is deemed to have "travelled" to a specific line number and to include odds on that phantom line bet. Yes somewhere around 5x odds it

Sometimes the action is real fast at a table but always feel free to ASK the dealer what is happening. If they have time they will tell you... its their job and often its a big difference in their tips too.

I was afraid that I was getting a bit of a shaft on placing these bets, but I was also on quite an upswing, and luckily one of those points hit immediately after. Granted, I understand now that I might've lost a dollar or two vs. a place bet, or even waiting for the number to hit on a separate come bet... I think the stick saw I was tipping quite a bit, and wanted to subtly let me know I was making a worse bet by "leaving it up." I would've asked the dealers about the bet, but I was going to a show (Family Feud Live, great fun!), and they had to pay off a 5-hit Fire bet (which I didn't bet, bah!).

Thanks for the information. This is exactly why WoV is such a phenomenal site.

Thank you so much for this question! The same thing happened to me over this past weekend.

My come on 6 won, and dealer asked if I wanted to keep it on. I said ok. Dealer gave me the winnings, and kept my original bet on 6. I thought it was a good deal because my flawed thinking was 'Hey, this is good, i get to keep my odds up without having to pay for another come bet'. But now I see the error in my logic:

• My original $5 bet was still being left up. This bet would pay 1 to 1. I am missing the come out roll, that is bad

A similar thing happened the next day. I had don't come on 10. I won. I asked Dealer if I could leave it on. He said i would have to pay $1 and the odds don't pay as much. He then placed a 'LAY' chip on top of my bet. I don't really understand what happened, but I realized I wasn't in Kansas anymore and asked for the bet back.

Quote: Avincow

Thank you so much for this question! The same thing happened to me over this past weekend.

I see players ask dealers if they can keep them up
I never have made a come bet except for the pass line bet

Quote: Avincow

A similar thing happened the next day.
I had don't come on 10.
I won.
I asked Dealer if I could leave it on.
He said i would have to pay $1 and the odds don't pay as much.

He should have answered "no" first to your question
as a don't come must come down after a win

and then explain what a Lay bet is

I love Lay bets, especially against a shooters point, when they and I know the point will not win.
I ask them

Quote: Avincow

He then placed a 'LAY' chip on top of my bet.
I don't really understand what happened, but I realized I wasn't in Kansas anymore and asked for the bet back.

Kansas, ouch.
the Lay 10 bet has a 66.67% chance of winning, nice

did it win, if you left it and for how much was the attempted Lay?
I hope it was for $40 to win $20
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

Kansas, ouch.
the Lay 10 bet has a 66.67% chance of winning, nice

did it win, if you left it and for how much was the attempted Lay?
I hope it was for $40 to win $20
Sally

The Don't Come was definitely a $5 bet with somewhere between $25-50 odds I believe. The Lay bet would have cost $1 (I guess this is considered commission). Now that I am reading Wizard's Craps page this makes a lot more sense. I probably had around $40 on there, so i could have won $20. 5% commission of the win ($20) would have been $1. Btw, i think it won.