Question pertaining to Casino Craps for Beginnersand come bets.

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September 8th, 2014 at 1:44:26 PM permalink

Whats that suppose to mean?

beachbumbabs

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September 8th, 2014 at 1:52:16 PM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
Whats that suppose to mean?

Rocky,

He's referring to your putting a craps system link in your first post here and hyping it. If you want to discuss craps math, you're welcome to be here. If you're hyping a system, expect to be shown the door per the forum's rules. What is your preference?

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

grimreaper1014

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September 8th, 2014 at 1:57:20 PM permalink

I'm not hyping a system at all. Its this sites own method. I am just asking a question about it is all. I'm just a beginner that watched a beginners video and I have a question about whether or not I should do something one way as appose to doing it another way that is all. I don't buy into systems. I don't promote systems nothing like that. I am just a beginner trying to learn more about craps.

beachbumbabs

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September 8th, 2014 at 1:59:48 PM permalink

Your best bet on getting coherent and diverse answers will be to detail as simply as possible how you were betting, then ask your questions specific to that. Use short paragraphs; it's hard to read as you posted it. Good luck and I hope some of the experts will help you. (I am not one).

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

grimreaper1014

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September 8th, 2014 at 2:02:02 PM permalink

Okay thanks for your advice. Sorry about that I will explain in better detail a little later. After posting it I did realize it was a little complicated to understand. I have to take my son to football practice then I will revise my first post.

beachbumbabs

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September 8th, 2014 at 2:02:14 PM permalink

I will add that the dealers are (generally speaking) encouraged to get you to make bets that have a higher house edge, so while I'm not making a judgment on the particular dealer's suggestion you mentioned, keep in mind they may have an agenda.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

grimreaper1014

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September 8th, 2014 at 2:06:47 PM permalink

Exactly thats what I noticed the first night at the first casino. Therefore, the second night at a different casino I was skeptical to accept dealer advice. I think if I am understanding what was demonstrated in the video the reason to place a come bet is to get your bet to slide up onto a number so you can back it with odds which pays better than placing place bets. Where as if you just placed place bets to begin with as the dealer suggested you would get paid less because your getting paid casino odds? I'm not sure if this is correct I am hoping someone will come along and answer that.

beachbumbabs

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September 8th, 2014 at 2:09:31 PM permalink

There's actually a long and recent thread on this very question, should be in this sub-forum. If you search from the dark blue line top right, use the words "come, place, odds, craps bets" I think it will come up on the first page; look for something dated July/August 2014.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

Ahigh

Ahigh

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September 8th, 2014 at 3:20:00 PM permalink

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/2/

1) Look at the edge per roll
2) Choose a bet with the lowest edge per roll
3) If you choose a bet that does not have the lowest edge per roll, choose the bet with the next to the lowest edge per roll
4) If you want more action, max out your lay odds (or odds)
5) Be patient

That's pretty much it.

If you don't bet more than one bet that has an edge at a time you're better off. That's the end of that story, pretty much.

Anything else, you're not going to do as well. The end.

Final parting words, don't bet the come unless you work the odds on the comeout.

Craps is simple if you want to get the best deal.

There are lots of ways to screw it up.

aahigh.com

DJTeddyBear

DJTeddyBear

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September 8th, 2014 at 3:25:40 PM permalink

The concept of a come bet requiring two hits is flawed for a variety of reasons. The initial roll could be a 7 or 11, meaning you could have won right there. Or it could have been a 2, 3, or 12 to lose.

By contrast, Place bets would have lost on the 7, but had no action on any other number other than the number it was place on.

If you do all the math, the result is the come bet with full odds IS better than the place bets. But is it significantly better? Define "significantly".

One problem with come bets is that "full odds" thing. If you're at a 3-4-5 table (which is typical), a $5 come bet where a 6 or 8 is rolled needs $25 for full odds. By contrast, the minimum for the place bet is $6. A $10 come needs $50 for full odds. Are you comfortable with those kinds of bets? Can your bankroll handle it? If you do come bets (or pass line bets) and don't take full odds, you're giving up extra house edge.

That dealer probably knew that your come bet would not be getting full odds. So in that case, yeah, the dealer may have been giving you good advice to do place bets, but the advice was not about the math and edge, but about your bankroll. And, being a novice, getting paid sooner with the bets remaining active, would seem good - good enough for you to start taking the dealer's advice about other bets. And THAT'S where they will really get you. If a dealer starts recommending any of the bets in the middle of the table, don't listen. Those are all high house edge bets. How do you know? Because the minimum for those bets is only $1. The casino allows bets lower than the table minimum to encourage the bet, because they are such lousy bets.

Bottom line, as a beginner, Just stick with a couple place bets. If you're shooting, add a minimum pass line bet, and back it up with odds. Once you get more comfortable with the game and your bankroll increases, lingo and speed of the action, then you can start adding other bets like the come with full odds, and buying the 4 & 10.

For more info, check out the Wizard's page about craps:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

Ahigh

Ahigh

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September 8th, 2014 at 3:35:30 PM permalink

Beginners should not bet the come bet if they want to bet odds IMO.

aahigh.com

mustangsally

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September 8th, 2014 at 3:43:03 PM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
Sorry if this is a bit confusing I am just trying to learn which way is the better bet and why.

what was confusing was the formatting on your first post.
I gave up trying to read it

the better bet, in my opinion, as many will give you their opinions too,

is to bet on the number that will win on the very next roll.

sounds to me you are playing the "game of craps" and all those bets are sucker bets except for the odds bets and you should be betting on the result of the next roll of the dice. forget about the game of craps. it is a loser game for all except those that can increase their winning rates for the bets they do make. <hint> <hint>

Nows,
there are only 11 values the dice can be on the very next roll.
some roll more than others. Learn them

learning Craps is like trying to eat an Elephant in a few bites.
aints goin' to be dunn

Break up the next roll into Chewable Morsels
like
like
7 and Field and 5,6 or8

Hey, 3 bets that covers the very next roll
the very next roll will be one of those 3 bets, true
kick some ass and win!

also, watch and listen to the dice and then bet to win

playing craps = fun
winning at craps = more fun

got it?
hehe

or do you really want to play almost forever, win all the casinos money and buy the world to be King?

hahaha

Sally

Ahigh, you finish that simulation yet?
shhhh

I Heart Vi Hart

mustangsally

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September 8th, 2014 at 3:46:06 PM permalink

Quote: Ahigh
Beginners should not bet the come bet if they want to bet odds IMO.

all craps players are either Beginners or Experts
nothing else exists

OP appears to be a beginner

Ahigh
what are you?

Sally

have you finished that simulation yet?

added for flavor:
I calculate starting simple
RoR and target hitting

> #even money matrix
>  p <- 0.493 ###enter
>  q <- 1-p
>  #vP <- c(0,0,1,0,0)
>  target <- 100 ###enter
>  m <- target-1
>  vQ <- c(rep(1,m))
>  
> A = matrix(0,m+2,m+2,dimnames = list(c(1:(m+1),0),c(1:(m+1),0)))
> A[m+2,m+2] = 1
> A[m+1,m+1] = 1
> A[1,m+2]=q
> A[m,m+1]=p
> A[1:(m-1),2:m] = diag(p,m-1,m-1)
> #A
> S <- A[1:m,1:m]
> diag(S[-1,])<- q
> #S
> 
> T <- A[1:m,(m+1):(m+2)]
> #T
> I <- diag(m)
> #I
> Q <-solve(I-S) # Gives Matrix Q
> #Q
> Q %*% vQ # gives Matrix Mu
         [,1]
1    58.29779
2   116.22270
3   173.76414
4   230.91122
5   287.65274
6   343.97718
7   399.87270
8   455.32712
9   510.32792
10  564.86220
11  618.91673
12  672.47788
13  725.53163
14  778.06359
15  830.05893
16  881.50241
17  932.37836
18  982.67067
19 1032.36276
20 1081.43759
21 1129.87763
22 1177.66484
23 1224.78071
24 1271.20614
25 1316.92156
26 1361.90677
27 1406.14107
28 1449.60311
29 1492.27097
30 1534.12210
31 1575.13329
32 1615.28071
33 1654.53982
34 1692.88540
35 1730.29150
36 1766.73144
37 1802.17780
38 1836.60234
39 1869.97606
40 1902.26912
41 1933.45082
42 1963.48961
43 1992.35303
44 2020.00770
45 2046.41930
46 2071.55253
47 2095.37109
48 2117.83763
49 2138.91377
50 2158.56003
51 2176.73579
52 2193.39931
53 2208.50763
54 2222.01659
55 2233.88078
56 2244.05348
57 2252.48667
58 2259.13094
59 2263.93549
60 2266.84808
61 2267.81499
62 2266.78095
63 2263.68916
64 2258.48117
65 2251.09688
66 2241.47450
67 2229.55048
68 2215.25944
69 2198.53417
70 2179.30555
71 2157.50249
72 2133.05187
73 2105.87852
74 2075.90511
75 2043.05214
76 2007.23782
77 1968.37807
78 1926.38639
79 1881.17386
80 1832.64900
81 1780.71776
82 1725.28340
83 1666.24644
84 1603.50458
85 1536.95260
86 1466.48231
87 1391.98244
88 1313.33856
89 1230.43298
90 1143.14470
91 1051.34923
92  954.91861
93  853.72119
94  747.62161
95  636.48066
96  520.15519
97  398.49796
98  271.35756
99  138.57828
> Q %*% T # gives Matrix SteadyState
           100          0
1  0.001838309 0.99816169
2  0.003728822 0.99627118
3  0.005673020 0.99432698
4  0.007672429 0.99232757
5  0.009728617 0.99027138
6  0.011843195 0.98815681
7  0.014017822 0.98598218
8  0.016254203 0.98374580
9  0.018554092 0.98144591
10 0.020919292 0.97908071
11 0.023351658 0.97664834
12 0.025853097 0.97414690
13 0.028425572 0.97157443
14 0.031071098 0.96892890
15 0.033791750 0.96620825
16 0.036589663 0.96341034
17 0.039467029 0.96053297
18 0.042426106 0.95757389
19 0.045469213 0.95453079
20 0.048598737 0.95140126
21 0.051817132 0.94818287
22 0.055126922 0.94487308
23 0.058530701 0.94146930
24 0.062031140 0.93796886
25 0.065630982 0.93436902
26 0.069333052 0.93066695
27 0.073140251 0.92685975
28 0.077055565 0.92294444
29 0.081082064 0.91891794
30 0.085222907 0.91477709
31 0.089481339 0.91051866
32 0.093860700 0.90613930
33 0.098364425 0.90163558
34 0.102996044 0.89700396
35 0.107759190 0.89224081
36 0.112657598 0.88734240
37 0.117695109 0.88230489
38 0.122875672 0.87712433
39 0.128203351 0.87179665
40 0.133682324 0.86631768
41 0.139316885 0.86068311
42 0.145111455 0.85488855
43 0.151070576 0.84892942
44 0.157198922 0.84280108
45 0.163501298 0.83649870
46 0.169982645 0.83001735
47 0.176648048 0.82335195
48 0.183502732 0.81649727
49 0.190552072 0.80944793
50 0.197801596 0.80219840
51 0.205256989 0.79474301
52 0.212924097 0.78707590
53 0.220808932 0.77919107
54 0.228917677 0.77108232
55 0.237256691 0.76274331
56 0.245832513 0.75416749
57 0.254651867 0.74534813
58 0.263721669 0.73627833
59 0.273049032 0.72695097
60 0.282641269 0.71735873
61 0.292505902 0.70749410
62 0.302650666 0.69734933
63 0.313083518 0.68691648
64 0.323812637 0.67618736
65 0.334846437 0.66515356
66 0.346193569 0.65380643
67 0.357862933 0.64213707
68 0.369863678 0.63013632
69 0.382205216 0.61779478
70 0.394897223 0.60510278
71 0.407949652 0.59205035
72 0.421372738 0.57862726
73 0.435177007 0.56482299
74 0.449373284 0.55062672
75 0.463972701 0.53602730
76 0.478986705 0.52101330
77 0.494427071 0.50557293
78 0.510305905 0.48969409
79 0.526635660 0.47336434
80 0.543429140 0.45657086
81 0.560699514 0.43930049
82 0.578460324 0.42153968
83 0.596725498 0.40327450
84 0.615509359 0.38449064
85 0.634826636 0.36517336
86 0.654692476 0.34530752
87 0.675122458 0.32487754
88 0.696132602 0.30386740
89 0.717739382 0.28226062
90 0.739959743 0.26004026
91 0.762811107 0.23718889
92 0.786311395 0.21368860
93 0.810479034 0.18952097
94 0.835332975 0.16466703
95 0.860892707 0.13910729
96 0.887178274 0.11282173
97 0.914210286 0.08578971
98 0.942009942 0.05799006
99 0.970599041 0.02940096
>

I Heart Vi Hart

grimreaper1014

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September 8th, 2014 at 4:56:25 PM permalink

When I went to the second casino it had a sign that said you could take up to 10x odds. I never took 10x odds on any of my pass line bets or my come bets. Therefore, I was playing to the casinos advantage right? I only took $400 with me yesterday as that was all I was willing to lose. I have actually increased it to $700 now. Therefore, my bankroll would be $700 now as that is what I could lose without it affecting me.

I was just going by that video as I use all of the wizard of oz's cheat sheets and stuff. For example I use the blackjack and video poker cheat sheets. Then, when I saw he actually had a beginners video for craps I watched with it and just went with it thinking that was the way you play the game with the best chance of winning. I don't mess with the bets in the middle like betting on craps or hi/low yo etc.

I am actually a pretty hot shooter for being a beginner. I watched some videos on dice control and that seamed to help me control my rolls better. However, I have not mastered being able to hit my point or numbers. They seam to be very random. I normally use the all 7's set for the come out and the hard way set there after. I shot about 10 times yesterday and 7'd out I think once on my 3rd roll. On all the other rolls I threw about 20 to 30 times I believe. Put it this way I was shooting forever.

With such a small bankroll should I always backup my pass line bet with full odds? Then make a few place bets? Can someone point me to some good videos to watch on how to learn to play craps correctly or on some reading material that will help me understand all this? I am really just learn how to play correctly and efficiently and to have the best chances at winning or taking minimal losses.

Thanks again everyone,
Rocky

grimreaper1014

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Posts: 26

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September 8th, 2014 at 5:08:50 PM permalink

Quote: DJTeddyBear
The concept of a come bet requiring two hits is flawed for a variety of reasons. The initial roll could be a 7 or 11, meaning you could have won right there. Or it could have been a 2, 3, or 12 to lose.

By contrast, Place bets would have lost on the 7, but had no action on any other number other than the number it was place on.

If you do all the math, the result is the come bet with full odds IS better than the place bets. But is it significantly better? Define "significantly".

One problem with come bets is that "full odds" thing. If you're at a 3-4-5 table (which is typical), a $5 come bet where a 6 or 8 is rolled needs $25 for full odds. By contrast, the minimum for the place bet is $6. A $10 come needs $50 for full odds. Are you comfortable with those kinds of bets? Can your bankroll handle it? If you do come bets (or pass line bets) and don't take full odds, you're giving up extra house edge.

That dealer probably knew that your come bet would not be getting full odds. So in that case, yeah, the dealer may have been giving you good advice to do place bets, but the advice was not about the math and edge, but about your bankroll. And, being a novice, getting paid sooner with the bets remaining active, would seem good - good enough for you to start taking the dealer's advice about other bets. And THAT'S where they will really get you. If a dealer starts recommending any of the bets in the middle of the table, don't listen. Those are all high house edge bets. How do you know? Because the minimum for those bets is only $1. The casino allows bets lower than the table minimum to encourage the bet, because they are such lousy bets.

Bottom line, as a beginner, Just stick with a couple place bets. If you're shooting, add a minimum pass line bet, and back it up with odds. Once you get more comfortable with the game and your bankroll increases, lingo and speed of the action, then you can start adding other bets like the come with full odds, and buying the 4 & 10.

For more info, check out the Wizard's page about craps:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

That must of been why he recommended it then but just didn't explain it correctly to me. I wasn't taking full odds on any of my come bets. I was just backing them all up like 2 or 3 times. The same went for the pass line. Therefore, I guess what he was telling me was correct as I am not comfortable putting $5 on the pass line then backing it with 10x odds and backing all my come bets with anywhere from $15 to $25. Therefore, I think I just came up with the best way for me to play. Please correct me if I am wrong. With such a small bankroll it would be better for me to do like $5 or $10 on the pass line then backing it a few times and putting up a place bet of $6 on both the 6 and the 8 as they are the most frequently rolled numbers besides the 7. Then, sometimes depending on the shooter to press the 6 or 8 here and there and take the bets down when the shooter gets deeper into their roll? Then, when I get up maybe increase to a 3rd place bet?

beachbumbabs

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Posts: 14268

Joined: May 21, 2013

September 8th, 2014 at 6:05:17 PM permalink

For what it's worth, I'm a beginner, and your revised bet pattern is exactly what I have been doing, and it's been very successful for me. As I said, I'm not an expert; please do keep that in mind.

If the point is a 6 or 8, and I'm already placed on them (something else was the first point/previous points), I will have the point bet moved to the 5 or 9, then repopulate after the point is made. If the shooter is rolling really well, I'll have all 4 numbers before long, and keep them riding. I haven't been placing the 4 or 10.

Oh, and I can't stay off the all/tall/small or FireBet if either is on the table. And they've paid very well for me, but they're high-house edge bets, too. However, they're way too much fun not to try a 1-5 bet.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

DJTeddyBear

DJTeddyBear

Threads: 210
Posts: 11059

Joined: Nov 2, 2009

September 8th, 2014 at 6:53:17 PM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
With such a small bankroll it would be better for me to do like $5 or $10 on the pass line then backing it a few times...

$10? No - unless you're at a $10 table.
If it's a $5 table, you're better off sticking with a $5 pass and put the extra $5 towards the odds.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ �� Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

AxelWolf

AxelWolf

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September 8th, 2014 at 8:12:07 PM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
Hi guys,

I just started playing craps.

Get out now while you still can!!!

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

AxelWolf

AxelWolf

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Joined: Oct 10, 2012

September 8th, 2014 at 8:12:23 PM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
Hi guys,

I just started playing craps.

Get out now while you still can!!!

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

FleaStiff

FleaStiff

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September 8th, 2014 at 11:43:16 PM permalink

Quote: beachbumbabs
keep in mind they may have an agenda.

Dealers may be too ignorant to have an agenda. Dealers like to keep the game going and its like a bartender selling booze, he wants to sell booze not debate the merits of blondes over redheads. Many dealers do not play craps well. If a dealer does know about this "come bet" versus "place bet" stuff, he is most likely going to know that its a question similar to 'blondes' and 'redheads', it ain't never gonna be settled. He is there to keep the game going. The dealer is not there to debate an already fine point. If you have a preference between come bets and place bets.... go for it. If you really don't care, then just plunk your money down.

Its like asking between Right Side bettors and Wrong Side Bettors .... the math works out to "such a smidgen of a difference" that it is not worthy of debate.

grimreaper1014

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Joined: Sep 8, 2014

September 9th, 2014 at 3:07:55 AM permalink

Thanks for your reply fleastiff. That is exactly what I was looking for. This actually worked for me the other night. However, I think if one is going to do come bets you got to back them with full odds which I was not doing because I didn't know. Its probably a good thing I didn't know as I could of easily gotten wiped out just as easily as I did good that day. I don't think it is very wise for me to make those large bets when playing with suck a small bankroll. What I really need to do is learn that percentage chart that was posted as recommended earlier and try to find bets with good odds with minimal losses sustained over an hours time. The reason being is when I go to the casino I normally go for the day sometimes I stay over night just to have fun
Therefore, it is about longevity and fun for me.

FleaStiff

FleaStiff

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Joined: Oct 19, 2009

September 9th, 2014 at 3:47:13 AM permalink

It is never necessary to either take odds or lay odds on a bet. It is an option the casino offers to attract players. In a market where its a monopoly odds might not even be offered, if its a competitive market odds will be offered so that those players who like the odds can have them for free and players, always like hearing that word "free". Some players think its a bargain, some think its a deceptive trick, which ever way you think, the house just wants to keep the dice flying. They won't debate with you but they will offer some pretty nifty statements on the issue and they will issue them in an authoritative manner even if its the dealer's second week on craps.

Sonny44

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Posts: 217

Joined: May 13, 2013

September 9th, 2014 at 12:10:11 PM permalink

I question taking full odds on PL & Come bets. It all depends on how much you're willing to lose. (The dice probabilities are always intact.) It all gets back to size of your bankroll. Taking/laying full odds doesn't guarantee a win any more than lesser odds. And, even with lesser odds, a come bet pays better than a nearly equal place bet. For example, $12 on a place 6 or 8 wins $14. A $5 flat with $10 odds ($15) with a PL/Come bet pays $17.

And, again, depending on your BR, it's not a good idea to have either many place or come bets. Big BR, lots of place/come bets, & vice-versa. It all gets back to what you're willing to lose; the wins take care of themselves. Test the water with your toe; don't jump in all at once.

odiousgambit

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September 9th, 2014 at 1:02:01 PM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
playing with suck a small bankroll

Your Freudian slip is telling. You seem to want a lot of action, but have a small bankroll. This just does not work out well with Craps.

As far as the free odds go, they can be a ticket to lower HE on your action or a ticket to ruin. Consider your next statement.

Quote:
The reason being is when I go to the casino I normally go for the day sometimes I stay over night just to have fun
Therefore, it is about longevity and fun for me.

You have gotten deeply into all the complications of Craps but have seemingly not asked the question "how much should I expect to lose on a daily basis?" If you had asked this and searched for the answer, you would be mentioning that the free odds seem to be no help at all. Or perhaps you would have concluded that there is one way they can help, and that is to know what your total action is and have the free odds be a portion of that action. Here is the right and wrong of that:

*player likes to bet $20 at a time. He learns about free odds and bets $20 then adds full odds behind that bet "to win more". WRONG.

*same player bets the min [say $10] then puts $10 behind that bet in free odds. Total bet stays $20. RIGHT

WHY: the right way takes the same amount of action [or less] and exposes it to the free odds.

Oh, btw, if you use free odds expect there to be days where you lose 40 times expected value, weeks/months where it approaches 20 times. You can also be ahead of the game, but I would never tell someone to expect that.

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: �Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!� She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

grimreaper1014

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September 9th, 2014 at 9:05:02 PM permalink

Well, I guess I should start off by saying I went to the same casino today and today was terrible. I gave up everything I won Sunday which was roughly $300. I think i won two passline bets during the few hours i was there. Everyone was having a terrible day. Everyone was just feeding hundred after hundred mhself included. There is clearly a lot more i have to learn about this game. I just wish i knew the best places to start. This is only my thrid time ever playing. I knew absolutely nothing about the game previous to a week ago.

Now that I have been to this casino 2 times on my own and its only an hour away I am comfortable spending a few hours playing craps as oppose to driving and your and a half to two hours to my old casino. The reason why I said I spend a long time is because when I use to drive almost two hours it really sucked to turn around and come home so quick. Therefore, I would have long nights of bj and Texas holdem. Now I am happy with just a few hours hell even an hour of fun is fine.

mustangsally

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September 9th, 2014 at 9:15:40 PM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
Well, I guess I should start off by saying I went to the same casino today and today was terrible. I gave up everything I won Sunday which was roughly $300. I think i won two passline bets during the few hours i was there. Everyone was having a terrible day. Everyone was just feeding hundred after hundred mhself included.

YES!
I love to hear about the slaughters
Thank you for sharing

a hint to any beginner

the best bets on the craps table are the ones not marked on the felt
like the dont pass lay odds and Lay bets
the dont pass is a sucker bet btw so make a limited number of them (lifetime bets)
unless you know they will win more than the pass line.

once you start to know... try switching sides after talking and listening to the dice
You should have noticed how all male craps players only talk to the dice and NEVER listen to them.
Venus and Mars I tells ya

If you do not have fun playing craps - win or lose
stop playing and do somethin else

gambling is all about having fun

Sally always wins

I Heart Vi Hart

AxelWolf

AxelWolf

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September 9th, 2014 at 9:31:34 PM permalink

Quote: mustangsally

gambling is all about having fun

Sally always wins

It's about winning. It's rare gambling is fun for 99% of players that lose.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

Sonny44

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September 10th, 2014 at 8:04:21 AM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
Well, I guess I should start off by saying I went to the same casino today and today was terrible. I gave up everything I won Sunday which was roughly $300. ... There is clearly a lot more i have to learn about this game. I just wish i knew the best places to start.

I started playing craps (& gambling, itself) 2 years ago next month. I'd read an article, got interested, but the first thing I did before going to my first table was buy an introductory book to craps. It was the best $15 I've invested. It was brief, explained all the important things like the dice pyramid, the bets, money management, & a brief offering of a system the author has used. Well written. The author has a good, balanced approach, giving a good attitude to bring to the table.

The book is, "No-Nonsense Craps," by Richard Orlyn. Available at Amazon. At least it was a foundation to start with. Another good book is "Craps: Everything You Need to Know," by Nino Nistri. You can get this book by going to The Craps Forum and looking for his forum moniker, "BasicStrategy777." I've bought other books & read online accounts, but these two books are all you need at this point, but I'd start with Orlyn's.

Orlyn has some good pointers on money management, which you seem to be ignorant of. So does Nistri. Managing your money is as important as knowing the bets, etc. It'll take some time & experience at the tables for you to settle into a style of play that suits your personality. Forums like this & the Craps Forum are excellent sources to ask questions, get advice, and learn others' experiences.

But, I'd say get these two books and read them, preferably before going to another table. Good Luck!

grimreaper1014

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September 10th, 2014 at 10:16:29 AM permalink

Thanks for your replies everyone. I really appreciate it. I think my problem yesterday was I just was not shooting the dice like I did the night when I won. I was releasing the dice 3/4 of the way threw my swing and throwing them too hard. Where as the first night I was releasing them when they were flat or parallel to the table and shooting softly. Therefore, my dice where hitting hard and hitting chips etc. It seamed like every time someone hit a chip stack yesterday they would 7 out.

I think I am also going to go back to my original betting technique which I learned in that beginners video. I think I am going to make a pass line bet of $5 and back it up with free odds once the point is established. Also, I am going to go back to betting the come and backing it properly with free odds. Two come bets until I'm up then increase it to three. Yesterday I was betting $5 on the pass line and backing it with $5. Then, I would place the 6 for $6 and the 8 for $6. This just did not seam to be working well.

I agree with you Sonny. I am very ignorant to money management. I need to come up with some type of betting system that will allow me to sustain minimal losses over a certain period of time instead of just betting all wild like I do and randomly. The fact of the matter is I am terrible at math and craps has ALOT of math. Can someone recommend me a betting strategy for playing with a couple hundred dollars? One where I will sustain minimal losses and will allow me to play for a few hours or tell me how I can come up with a betting strategy that will help me manage my money?

I ended up ordering a few things from Amazon today. I ordered some dice http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000RQ0GLU/ref=pe_385040_30332200_TE_item, Learn to Play Craps from Part-time Dice Pros by C. "Judge" Johnson and Bryan Bonshell, Get the Edge at Craps (Scoblete Get-The-Edge Guide) by Sharpshooter, and No-Nonsense Craps: The Consummate Guide to Winning at the Crap Table by Richard Orlyn. I figure this way I can work on mastering my dice sets and also do some reading to learn more about craps. If there is anything else you guys can recommend to me I am all ears. I really enjoy playing this game and would like to learn as much as possible. I am suppose to be going to the casino tomorrow morning with my mom.

Thanks again everyone,
Rocky

beachbumbabs

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September 10th, 2014 at 10:20:08 AM permalink

Rocky,

I genuinely doubt it had anything to do with how you were throwing the dice. But it's supposed to be entertainment, so do what you enjoy and hope for good results. Have fun, let us know how you're doing.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

mustangsally

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September 10th, 2014 at 10:33:18 AM permalink

Quote: grimreaper1014
Thanks for your replies everyone.

you are welcome

Quote: grimreaper1014
I need to come up with some type of betting system that will allow me to sustain minimal losses over a certain period of time instead of just betting all wild like I do and randomly.

"minimal losses"
there are no betting systems that do that for any one session played.
not one
none
zero
nada
0

The probability of a maximum loss > 0

prove it is not
added: unless variance = 0

Quote: grimreaper1014
The fact of the matter is I am terrible at math and craps has ALOT of math.

no it does not
example
$5 pass line and $10 odds does not require any math.
none
nada
zero
0
zip

Quote: grimreaper1014
Can someone recommend me a betting strategy for playing with a couple hundred dollars?

you must state the reason you play
it can only be
#1) for maximum length of play with min ruin probability
#2) double my starting bankroll - highest success probability wanted

any other reason to play craps is meaningless and falls into the "for fun only - anything goes" category

even IF you have a bankroll of $10 million US, every craps player would end up ruined at some point, every one
why?
the house edge

added: of course every male craps player would just blame the total ruin on their throw of the dice
as the casino only wins because of bad-poor shooters - mostly all male ones
hahaha

Sally

I Heart Vi Hart

mustangsally

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September 10th, 2014 at 10:44:00 AM permalink

Quote: beachbumbabs
Rocky,

I genuinely doubt it had anything to do with how you were throwing the dice.

but public perception is the throw of the dice had everything to do with it.
not that one can't bet against the dice

Quote: beachbumbabs
But it's supposed to be entertainment, so do what you enjoy and hope for good results. Have fun, let us know how you're doing.

no sugar coating the obvious
public perception
craps players that lose have no fun playing craps
craps players that win have fun playing craps

fun <> the male ego

Sally

I Heart Vi Hart

grimreaper1014

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September 10th, 2014 at 10:46:45 AM permalink

beachbumbabs - Your right it just seams like when the dice hit too hard they roll all crazy which always seams to be a bad thing lol. At lease for me anyways. For me the game is very entertaining. I have ALOT of fun playing it which is why I crossed over to it from Texas Holdem Ultimate which seamed boring sitting around waiting for cards and blackjack. I do like both I just don't have the amount of fun I have when playing craps. The excitement and the rush when you shooting good and hitting your numbers or point is unmatched for me.

Sally - Thanks for all your replies. You have been very helpful. Sometimes a little over my head being so new to craps but I do understand a lot of what your saying and really appreciate the advice and detail in which you go into. As for stating the reason I play I guess it would depend on which casino I go too. If I go to the one which is 1 1/2 to 2 hours away I am definitely playing for maximum length of time because I don't like to leave as soon as I get there lol. However, I think I will be playing more at the closer one which I am playing tomorrow so my mission would be to double my starting bankroll which will be $200 or $300.

* Edit - I'm not saying that the way I was rolling had everything to do with why I lost yesterday. I know a lot of it had to do with it just being a bad day because everyone was having the same problem. The other factor was simply lack of knowledge for the game of craps. However, even though I lost it was still entertaining for me.

Sonny44

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September 10th, 2014 at 10:49:20 AM permalink

Rocky,

I recommend reading Orlyn's book first. Go slow with your craps education. Scoblete promotes dice influencing, which is something for later, maybe much later. I'm no good at math, either. Just keep it simple, because even the simple (figuring odds, payouts, bet amounts, etc.) is complex enough for our types. I've settled on Orlyn's strategy, which involves a combination of PL, Come, and Place betting. I've modified that strategy and have played several sessions with it. You may or may not like it.

It wins/loses like other systems, but offers ample table time, and keeps wins/loses to a minimum. I have found that even knowledgeable betting wins/loses almost equally, regardless of what you do. There is no such thing as a consistent winner/loser. Also, the more you bet the more you stand to lose, and this is where money management comes in.

So, progress slowly, use your table experiences, study more, try this, try that. Eventually, you'll find a method that suits you and your bankroll. As they say, experience is the best teacher.

grimreaper1014

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September 10th, 2014 at 10:59:36 AM permalink

Thanks for your reply Sonny. I greatly appreciate it. I will take your advice and read that book first. I hate to read but I will force myself to read it. It is easier for me to read stuff I am really interested in so hopefully it will be a pretty easy and fun read for me. I combination of PL, Come, and PB's yet. Normally I go with PL with odds and either Come bets or PB's. Depending on how much I am up will depend on how many Come bets or PB's I will have up at any given time.

One thing I have learned is regardless what people say any strategy or betting system is susceptible to losses. You are very right about that. I definitely need to learn more about managing my money better as I have even noticed this is a real problem for me.

I am definitely trying to read everything I can get my hands and eyes on lol. Studying this game is pretty much all I have been doing the last week or so since I first played it. I plan to get as much experience I can as I know that is always the best teacher. I just hope I don't go broke in the process lol. Thanks again bro I appreciate your time and advice!

chatfield24

chatfield24

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September 11th, 2014 at 10:15:56 AM permalink

Reducing the casino advantage with odds at craps is not necessarily a better bet. As I explain to other craps players, the casino is taking a smaller percentage of a larger bet.
Example: the house advantage for the Pass Line bet is 1.41%. Imaging betting a chip 36 times on the pass line, and every combination comes up once. The player loses 1.41% of 36 chips, which is 0.51 chips. Now do the same with single odds. The house advantage with single odds is 0.85%. Since a point number comes up 24 times, that means a total of 60 chips bet (12 for Seven and Craps, and 48 for the point number with single odds). 0.85% of 60 chips is 0.51 chips.

For the newbie, to stay at the table the longest means a Pass Line bet without odds.
If the table is warm or better, than adding single odds or more is desirable.
But this is just basic betting strategy. Minimal bets when the table is cold, and betting more when conditions seem favorable.
If only we could identify those situations better!

Using Odds increases variation, but it does not increase the expected loss, IN THE LONG RUN. But the only "player" at the table there for the long run statistically is the house.

Every craps player knows a cold table will turn eventually. He only needs unlimited time and an unlimited bankroll. This is in essence the casino advantage- it has both and the player has neither. That is why it is so important for the player, when luck is on his or her side, to walk away with a profit. Because the table will turn.

Dicenor33

Dicenor33

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September 11th, 2014 at 11:03:28 AM permalink

Bet "inside" plus single odds. Go progressive, it's your only chance to capitalize on a "Monster" roll should it ever come. Never spend hours playing, it might be your best defense against the house. You can have fun by watching other players.

odiousgambit

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September 11th, 2014 at 11:14:36 AM permalink

Quote: mustangsally
of course every male craps player would just blame the total ruin on their throw of the dice
as the casino only wins because of bad-poor shooters - mostly all male ones
hahaha

Sally

Ha! there was a really dumb FEMALE craps player on TV last night. Touted as an expert too, because she won at poker [what?]. She was claiming you could be an advantage player in Craps just by making the right bets.

added: this was on the Discovery channel programs

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: �Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!� She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

mustangsally

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September 11th, 2014 at 11:25:11 AM permalink

Quote: odiousgambit
Ha! there was a really dumb FEMALE craps player on TV last night. Touted as an expert too, because she won at poker [what?]. She was claiming you could be an advantage player in Craps just by making the right bets.

one can easily have an advantage over casino craps by just making the right bets at the right time, in other words, increasing your winning probability

this is so easy even an 11 year old understands this

you must be over 30

It is how I am +EV for all my Lay bets with vig paid up front
I have now won every possible Lay bet available from 2 to 6 and 8 to 12
the last 12 was wild!

I be there in a few weeks again
Ha!
Sally

I Heart Vi Hart

Sonny44

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September 11th, 2014 at 11:58:55 AM permalink

Quote: mustangsally
Quote: odiousgambit
Ha! there was a really dumb FEMALE craps player on TV last night. Touted as an expert too, because she won at poker [what?]. She was claiming you could be an advantage player in Craps just by making the right bets.

one can easily have an advantage over casino craps by just making the right bets at the right time, in other words, increasing your winning probability Sally

No one knows when the devil will show. Anyone who thinks he/she can predict that is a sucker.

odiousgambit

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September 11th, 2014 at 12:01:53 PM permalink

Quote: mustangsally
this is so easy even an 11 year old understands this

that is called baiting a male!

Quote: mustangsally
you must be over 30

I am often mistaken for someone under 30 [not]

Quote: mustangsally
It is how I am +EV for all my Lay bets with vig paid up front

vig and +EV in the same sentence. That's the Sally I know!

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: �Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!� She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

mustangsally

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September 11th, 2014 at 12:24:32 PM permalink

Quote: Sonny44
Quote: mustangsally
Quote: odiousgambit
Ha! there was a really dumb FEMALE craps player on TV last night. Touted as an expert too, because she won at poker [what?]. She was claiming you could be an advantage player in Craps just by making the right bets.

one can easily have an advantage over casino craps by just making the right bets at the right time, in other words, increasing your winning probability Sally

No one knows when the devil will show. Anyone who thinks he/she can predict that is a sucker.

that is why I am not a sucker as I only increase my winning probabilities over actual bets made and resolved.
There is a trick to it but no male will ever learn the trick.
ask my husband as he gets pissed off by me winning more than math probability for one event shows.

I still win
except for that ATS bet

Sally

I Heart Vi Hart

mustangsally

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September 11th, 2014 at 12:27:09 PM permalink

Quote: odiousgambit
I am often mistaken for someone under 30 [not]

by those over 60 no doubt
I still get carded every time when I gamble in a casino
I look 16 they say
and I say I look over 30, but I thank them anyways

Sally

I Heart Vi Hart

petroglyph

petroglyph

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September 11th, 2014 at 1:05:51 PM permalink

Quote: mustangsally
Quote: odiousgambit
Ha! there was a really dumb FEMALE craps player on TV last night. Touted as an expert too, because she won at poker [what?]. She was claiming you could be an advantage player in Craps just by making the right bets.
one can easily have an advantage over casino craps by just making the right bets at the right time, in other words, increasing your winning probability

this is so easy even an 11 year old understands this

you must be over 30

It is how I am +EV for all my Lay bets with vig paid up front
I have now won every possible Lay bet available from 2 to 6 and 8 to 12
the last 12 was wild!

I be there in a few weeks again
Ha!
Sally

How you gonna get there Sally?........Ride?

We all know women can't drive, especially if under 30

Your day will come, now there's a bet.

For crying out loud Sally, have a hart.

thecesspit

thecesspit

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September 11th, 2014 at 1:10:34 PM permalink

Quote: mustangsally
Quote: odiousgambit
Ha! there was a really dumb FEMALE craps player on TV last night. Touted as an expert too, because she won at poker [what?]. She was claiming you could be an advantage player in Craps just by making the right bets.
one can easily have an advantage over casino craps by just making the right bets at the right time, in other words, increasing your winning probability

this is so easy even an 11 year old understands this

you must be over 30

It is how I am +EV for all my Lay bets with vig paid up front

Surely you mean +AV for all your lay bets.

If the bet has happened, it's no longer expected.

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

mustangsally

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September 11th, 2014 at 5:40:38 PM permalink

Quote: thecesspit
Quote: mustangsally
Quote: odiousgambit
Ha! there was a really dumb FEMALE craps player on TV last night. Touted as an expert too, because she won at poker [what?]. She was claiming you could be an advantage player in Craps just by making the right bets.
one can easily have an advantage over casino craps by just making the right bets at the right time, in other words, increasing your winning probability

this is so easy even an 11 year old understands this

you must be over 30

It is how I am +EV for all my Lay bets with vig paid up front

Surely you mean +AV for all your lay bets.

If the bet has happened, it's no longer expected.

yes +EV
I expect it

you being a male can never understand that my probability of winning a Lay 4 does not equal always 6/9
it is much higher

Just ask Ahigh's wife (his woman), she knows
Ahigh, gots that sim done for us yet?

thank you handsome
Sally

I Heart Vi Hart

odiousgambit