Come Bet Reestablished?

I was at Boulder Station last night and I had 3 $5 Come Bets with $25 odds on each. When the shooter rolled a seven, instead of losing my bets the dealer told me to put down $15 and I wouldn't lose my bets and it would stay on the points. This never happened to me before and I was confused as hell! But I put down the $15 to keep my come bets. I ended up hitting all 3 bets and won about 400 bucks in less than an hour at the table. Has this happened to anybody else? If so, what do you call this bet??

You made three $5 "put" bets essentially.

Put bet. Thank You sir. I will need to look more into this.

Did he let you keep the $25 odds up on each number that you made a $5 put bet on?

I assume not; he should take the odds and allow you to replace the $5 bet, only.

Quote: MikeC

I was at Boulder Station last night and I had 3 $5 Come Bets with $25 odds on each. When the shooter rolled a seven, instead of losing my bets the dealer told me to put down $15 and I wouldn't lose my bets and it would stay on the points. This never happened to me before and I was confused as hell! But I put down the $15 to keep my come bets. I ended up hitting all 3 bets and won about 400 bucks in less than an hour at the table. Has this happened to anybody else? If so, what do you call this bet??

If they let you keep the $75 odds you had -- this is a gigantic advantage play.

If they took the odds and used your $15 to make 3 "put" bets -- you got taken advantage of. Never make a put bet unless you have a lot of odds behind it. You could instead make a place bet and get paid a bonus when you win, instead of even money on the put.

Put bets pay even money.

Place bets pay 7 to 6 on the six and eight, 7 to 5 on the five and 9, and 9 to 5 on the four and ten.

The only reason to make a put bet is if you're in a house that allows like 10x odds, then it would be worth it (if you take full odds)

Quote: MikeC

... what do you call this bet??

Technically, it is called a "put" bet. In reality, in your particular circumstances, it was a gift from the dealers and you were wise to trust the dealers despite your confusion. I hope you tipped them.

Here is the "skinny" on a "Put" bet.

Some casinos do not allow them. Some casinos allow them but the dealers ain't never heard the term "Put Bet".

In reality it ALL starts with a Pass Line Bet. Always remember that.

PassLine Bet. Contract Bet. The DICE decide if its an Immediate Win (7, 11) or an Immediate Lose (2, 3, 12) or Establish A Point (4,5,6,8,9,10). If you Establish A Point, you get to enter the "bonus round" which is Roll the Point Again to Win OR Roll a Seven to Lose.

So on a Pass Line bet you might Never get a Point Number and if you do get a point number, the Dice, not you, chose which one it is.

Exact same rules for a COME BET, the dice choose if you are betting on a ComePoint Number or not and if so which one.

A PLACE BET allows YOU to choose a specific number .... but the house is gonna clip you a little on the payoffs.

A PUT BET is a "virtual come bet" wherein you've already gone through the initial roll and your come bet then TRAVELS to a specific number selected by you. Again the house clips you a bit by taking away your initial roll of 7 or 11 to win.

In reality, you've been allowed to make a come bet that has traveled to a number selected by you and which now has zero odds on it. You can in fact make a Put Bet that already has odds on it.

Did you have good dealers? Yes.
Did you do right to trust them? Yes.
Is the bet to your advantage? No.... the house in allowing to make a Put Bet takes away some of your chances but that is a price you are paying for CHOOSING which number to put it on.
Can the bet lose? Of course.
Can the bet win? Of course.

Did you do "right"? Yes. You trusted the dealer and it later turned out that the bet won. Tip him.
In the future, know about put bets on your own and see what the house will allow.

But you did right. If its a ComeOut Roll, you will usually have your ODDS returned to you if a seven is rolled and will lose the flat bet, but if the dealers offer you a put bet, I'd go for it. You are re-establishing the flat bets.

Quote: sodawater

Put bets pay even money.
Place bets pay 7 to 6 on the six and eight, 7 to 5 on the five and 9, and 9 to 5 on the four and ten.

The flat portion of a COME bet always pays even money; the ODDS portion pays True Odds. A COME BET travels to a Dice selected number; a PUT bet is made on a Player selected number and consists of a 'flat bet plus Zero - to Table Max Odds' determined by the player.

Yes, its much better to do it at 10x odds than zero odds, particularly if you win it.

Seems to me it was a come-out roll that caused the unusual proposal. The dealer was going to give you back your odds since those bets were off, then came up with this idea. Kind of a cool idea to use the put bets to keep them up. HOWEVER this dealer was doing something that favored the house, not you. The suits should give him a medal.

*If* this happened because of a 7-out, then the dealer was risking his job. All your bets should have been collected instead. The suits would fire him if they catch him. And *that* should get caught.

Thus you should never just say "shooter rolled a 7" and think you have given enough information.

Quote: odiousgambit

HOWEVER this dealer was doing something that favored the house, not you. The suits should give him a medal.

I have to chuckle. Thinking about or wondering about when a dealer does something that favors me, it would have to be saying something like "why don't you get something to eat, we'll give you a comp."

It doesn't happen all that often really.

Quote: MikeC

I was at Boulder Station last night and I had 3 $5 Come Bets with $25 odds on each. When the shooter rolled a seven, instead of losing my bets the dealer told me to put down $15 and I wouldn't lose my bets and it would stay on the points. This never happened to me before and I was confused as hell! But I put down the $15 to keep my come bets. I ended up hitting all 3 bets and won about 400 bucks in less than an hour at the table. Has this happened to anybody else? If so, what do you call this bet??

As a general rule, just doing place bets and working them is about as effective. The rare case a put bet is better is at a place like Boulder. They have 10x odds. With 345x odds, it's never a good idea to do put bets IMO. The advantage of the place bet is that you can come down if you wish. The come bets are locked in after first roll in that situation.

Many places with low limits and 10x odds (EG: Joker's Wild) won't allow put bets anyway. The general rule is that if a put bet is to your advantage, they won't allow it. But the case you're talking about is one case when they will even for a couple of places that won't allow it if you were not already up on those come bets.

Almost EVERY place allows it on the pass line, however, because it's hard to stop since that bet's self service.

There are many MANY threads that go into tons of details on this situation and folks argue back and forth over the difference in the math between this and a place bet.

My resolution is just place the freaking number and don't confuse a dealer, especially with terms and things that they probably don't understand. At levels that a put bet is a good idea, a buy bet is not much worse. Just stay away from the 5 and 9 on the place bets, and get your 4, 6, 8, 10 back with $25 or more and you're back in business.

It can be a bad habit to get into these weird things that not every dealer at every casino is going to be comfortable with. And the lower your odds amount, the more you are just giving your money away, even if you aren't going to want to take them down possibly later.

Looking at the OP's original post, he said it happened "when the shooter rolled a seven."

I assumed he meant the shooter sevened out, but I suspect he meant that the shooter made his point and then rolled a natural seven on the ensuing come out roll.

If the seven was on the come out roll than yes, of course, he would lose his 3 $5 come bets but his odds bets on the come bets would be returned, because they weren't working on the come out.

Confusing game, at times.

I was imagining that the shooter made his point, the seven was on the comeout, sticks says "working bets have action," dealer asks, "drop me three nickels and you're back in business."

Taps the three nickels on one or more of the bets and lazily puts on his stack. Another big motivator for the dealer is stroke-reduction.

Quote: Ahigh

The advantage of the place bet is that you can come down if you wish.

what a joke (opinion)
That is no advantage. (another opinion)
It is just a player option (?)

some say it is fool's gold.

you think it is an advantage - just your opinion - so prove it to the world so all that read your many opinions on any topic
can see another opinion.
Damn I am getting fat. (not an opinion)

This is exactly what happens at a real craps table. (not an opinion)
I have a $300 place 6 and it wins. I say press to the Dealer and now it sits at $600.
(I should have just bet $600 to start with)

The very next roll one die goes off the table and rolls 37 feet away.
The shooter says nothing and the stickman pushes new dice to the shooter.

Ah, I have the advantage (option) to turn my place 6 off for the next roll
I wonder out loud how much that advantage IS as a percentage of my total wager

I also have the advantage (option) of taking my place 6 down as the ODDS for the very next roll to be a 7out has increased at least 10 fold

what should Sally do?


Ahigh says
"The advantage of the place bet is that you can come down if you wish"

of course his opinion here does
nothing to increase the chances of your place bet winning.

does it decrease the chances of your place bet losing?
What about the next time you make that place bet.
take it down before the next roll

Ahigh says
"The advantage of the place bet is that you can come down if you wish"

advantage to Sally

my opinion is that if it makes you feel better, do it, that is the advantage

oh, yeah, I listened to Ahigh's opinion, not really, and took my place 6 down.
The very next roll was a 6
advantage Sally

Quote: MikeC

Has this happened to anybody else?

yes, to me when I was 21 years old.
I rolled a 7 on the come out roll and had two come bets with odds on them.

Quote: MikeC

If so, what do you call this bet??

at the time, the dealer said I could put the come bets back up

I had no clue why and was happy to get my odds back (because at that time I played scared)
and just went about my next roll that was another 7 winner.

I had to read about put bets after that and have found many casinos do not allow them for the come bets.

Sally

Quote: mustangsally

what a joke (opinion)
That is no advantage. (another opinion)
It is just a player option (?)

some say it is fool's gold.

you think it is an advantage - just your opinion - so prove it to the world so all that read your many opinions on any topic
can see another opinion.
Damn I am getting fat. (not an opinion)

This is exactly what happens at a real craps table. (not an opinion)
I have a $300 place 6 and it wins. I say press to the Dealer and now it sits at $600.
(I should have just bet $600 to start with)

The very next roll one die goes off the table and rolls 37 feet away.
The shooter says nothing and the stickman pushes new dice to the shooter.

Ah, I have the advantage (option) to turn my place 6 off for the next roll
I wonder out loud how much that advantage IS as a percentage of my total wager

I also have the advantage (option) of taking my place 6 down as the ODDS for the very next roll to be a 7out has increased at least 10 fold

what should Sally do?


Ahigh says
"The advantage of the place bet is that you can come down if you wish"

of course his opinion here does
nothing to increase the chances of your place bet winning.

does it decrease the chances of your place bet losing?
What about the next time you make that place bet.
take it down before the next roll

Ahigh says
"The advantage of the place bet is that you can come down if you wish"

advantage to Sally

my opinion is that if it makes you feel better, do it, that is the advantage

oh, yeah, I listened to Ahigh's opinion, not really, and took my place 6 down.
The very next roll was a 6
advantage Sally

You are 100% correct making the assumption that this game is 100% about math and 0% about entertainment.

Your response has 0% entertainment value for me.

Advantages are not all mathematical.

Quote: Ahigh

You are 100% correct making the assumption that this game is 100% about math and 0% about entertainment.

Your response has 0% entertainment value for me.

Advantages are not all mathematical.

Option would be a better word to use than advantage.

I do this quite often when it seems the table is hot (I know there is no such thing) and I have a lot of numbers up, it keeps the big action going and is better then having to place all the numbers anyway. As Grandfather said in 'Little Big Man' sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't.

I have never been at a table that anyone else has done it on and have never been refused anywhere I have asked. I usually just tell the dealer right away before he has a chance to get them down to "leave them up" and hand have the chips ready.

Quote: Ahigh

Advantages are not all mathematical.

you still did not show what any advantage other than taking the bet down is.

Are you still waiting, as I am, for that simulation you coded to finish?

Here issss some of the advantages I listed

It is just a player option (option looks funny, opt ion... looks like Ion Saliu another math guru)
the advantage (option) to turn my place 6 off for the next roll
I also have the advantage (option) of taking my place 6 down

does nothing to increase the chances of your place bet winning
This, for those thinking about playing craps for the first time, is what makes playing craps the most fun. winning.

does it decrease the chances of your place bet losing?
Losing is part of the game

it makes you feel better (at that moment in time)

my example - it did not make me feel better after the next roll that counted.


Your response has 100% entertainment value for me.
Thanks!
Sally

Quote: kenarman

I have never been at a table that anyone else has done it on and have never been refused anywhere I have asked.

I have only seen this done during a Craps tournament at Primm Valley a few months ago.
One player kept doing this and the dealer had no problem with it.
345X odds
He busted out in the session I watched
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

you still did not show what any advantage other than taking the bet down is.

Are you still waiting, as I am, for that simulation you coded to finish?

Here issss some of the advantages I listed

It is just a player option (option looks funny, opt ion... looks like Ion Saliu another math guru)
the advantage (option) to turn my place 6 off for the next roll
I also have the advantage (option) of taking my place 6 down

does nothing to increase the chances of your place bet winning
This, for those thinking about playing craps for the first time, is what makes playing craps the most fun. winning.

does it decrease the chances of your place bet losing?
Losing is part of the game

it makes you feel better (at that moment in time)

my example - it did not make me feel better after the next roll that counted.


Your response has 100% entertainment value for me.
Thanks!
Sally

AHigh clearly meant place bets are favorable, not advantageous, over a contract come/put bet in, and only in, the sense that the former can be removed while the latter cannot. He did not mean an advantage in the house edge sense.

As I pointed out earlier, this topic has been beat to death and many MANY threads argue over the math of the put bet.

I wanted to make a suggestion based on practical concerns. If math is your god, make sure you're on a 10x or higher table and always taking 10x odds and do your put bets when that's the biggest concern you have. But you should already be working your odds on the comeout for a better advantage anyway, so the entire discussion is completely moot for someone who is already smart enough to know that more than 29% of all rolls are comeout rolls and you're mathematically challenged to have them turned off that frequently.

I stand by my assertions. Go check those threads for the math if you wish. It's been covered plenty.

The value of the put bet is for math-centered folks to argue about splitting hairs.

You want the better math advice, work the odds on the comeout!

Quote: Ahigh

I wanted to make a suggestion based on practical concerns.

everyone is free to offer their opinion(s) on any topic in any thread.
put bets rule!

down with odds

or is that
NO down with odds (mixing come bets and place bets)

Quote: Ahigh

You want the better math advice, work the odds on the comeout!

OP did not ask for any but some might wants

"work the odds on the comeout!"
Nice opinion
but but
bad math advice
(opinion backed by math - no unlimited bankroll per session and never trillions^trillions of rolls per hour - real craps)

becuz itz increases one's (1s) Risk of Ruin
and
for most craps players (real and fake) that that that
takes away ALL the fun of playing Craps.

my opinion here,
never work your come bet odds on any come out roll unless
you can "deal with less fun" losing more.
It is gambling.

Sally

I'll say it again, but this subject (put bets) has been discussed to death. Opinion or not, it's a tired and old argument that is address in the Wizard's main page on the game.

Quote: WizardSite

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

Put Bets

In craps, the player may skip the come out roll on a pass or come bet. Such a late bet on the pass and come is known as a "put bet." Much of the value in pass and come bets is in the come out roll, so skipping it carries a high house edge. To be specific, 33.33% on the 4 and 10, 20.00% on the 5 and 9, and 9.09% on the 6 and 8, on a per bet resolved basis. However, you can combine a put bet with an odds bet, bringing down the overall house edge. Here are the breakeven points, according to point.

6 and 8: Bettor must combine a put bet with 5X odds to have the same overall house edge of 1.52% as a place bet.
5 and 9: Bettor must combine a put bet with 4X odds to have the same overall house edge of 4.00% as a place bet.
4 and 10: Bettor must combine a put bet with 19X odds to have the same overall house edge of 1.67% as a buy bet, assuming the commission is paid on a win only. If the commission is always paid then the bettor must combine a put with with 6X odds to match the 4.76% house edge.

At casinos that offer 3-4-5X odds, or worse, there is no reason to make a put bet, because you will do equal or bettor to make a place or buy bet.

Forgive me for being practical in effectively saying 'meh' to these bets.

Quote: mustangsally

Nice opinion
but but
bad math advice

you and the Wizard should duke it out on that one

Quote:

never work your come bet odds on any come out roll unless
you can "deal with less fun" losing more

why do you lose more on a bet with 0% HE?

Quote: Ahigh

I'll say it again, but this subject (put bets) has been discussed to death. Opinion or not, it's a tired and old argument that is address in the Wizard's main page on the game.

Quote: WizardSite

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

Put Bets

In craps, the player may skip the come out roll on a pass or come bet. Such a late bet on the pass and come is known as a "put bet." Much of the value in pass and come bets is in the come out roll, so skipping it carries a high house edge. To be specific, 33.33% on the 4 and 10, 20.00% on the 5 and 9, and 9.09% on the 6 and 8, on a per bet resolved basis. However, you can combine a put bet with an odds bet, bringing down the overall house edge. Here are the breakeven points, according to point.

6 and 8: Bettor must combine a put bet with 5X odds to have the same overall house edge of 1.52% as a place bet.
5 and 9: Bettor must combine a put bet with 4X odds to have the same overall house edge of 4.00% as a place bet.
4 and 10: Bettor must combine a put bet with 19X odds to have the same overall house edge of 1.67% as a buy bet, assuming the commission is paid on a win only. If the commission is always paid then the bettor must combine a put with with 6X odds to match the 4.76% house edge.

At casinos that offer 3-4-5X odds, or worse, there is no reason to make a put bet, because you will do equal or bettor to make a place or buy bet.

Forgive me for being practical in effectively saying 'meh' to these bets.

I don't think that using the put to keep your come bets up has the same odds as the above. The main problem with a put that the Wiz identifies is that you make it after the come out roll where a right side bet has the advantage thus loosing that advantage. When you keep your bets up after a come out roll 7 the next roll is still a come out roll so you don't give up that advantage.

Quote: kenarman

I don't think that using the put to keep your come bets up has the same odds as the above.

Yeah, it does. The math doesn't care if it's a pass line or a come bet.

Quote: Ahigh

Yeah, it does. The math doesn't care if it's a pass line or a come bet.

In craps, the player may skip the come out roll on a pass or come bet. Such a late bet on the pass and come is known as a "put bet." Much of the value in pass and come bets is in the come out roll, so skipping it carries a high house edge. Direct from the Wiz's post that quoted.

The bet we are discussing does not skip the come out roll.

Quote: kenarman

In craps, the player may skip the come out roll on a pass or come bet. Such a late bet on the pass and come is known as a "put bet." Much of the value in pass and come bets is in the come out roll, so skipping it carries a high house edge. Direct from the Wiz's post that quoted.

The bet we are discussing does not skip the come out roll.

The come out roll for a come bet is the first roll when the bet is in the "come" area.

Instead of marking the point, the bet "travels" to the number that rolled on the first roll if it's a 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, or 10.

If you read the original post, you will see that the poster was doing 5x odds ($25) on $5 come bets. He had three come bets that traveled to three numbers, each of them having $25 odds (5x). Then the point was made, and his odds were off. The shooter rolled a seven winner, and when the stick man says "working bets have action, save odds" instead of returning the odds, the dealer asks for the $15 for the working bets. Each of these working bets were not on the comeout roll like the pass line was in terms of the state of the bet, they had three independent points marked, one point per each $5 come bet.

A "comeout roll" refers only to the pass line. Come bets have their points identified differently (by traveling) than the pass line (by marking with the puck).

I have made a come bet on the comeout roll, and had the bet travel to the number with the puck. If you have the right dealer, many unique things are possible.

But back to the point, the Wizard's FAQ on put bets apply. When a come bet skips the stage where it's sitting in the area marked "come" that's the "comeout roll" that it missed for that bet.

Quote: MikeC

I was at Boulder Station last night and I had 3 $5 Come Bets with $25 odds on each. When the shooter rolled a seven, instead of losing my bets the dealer told me to put down $15 and I wouldn't lose my bets and it would stay on the points. This never happened to me before and I was confused as hell! But I put down the $15 to keep my come bets. I ended up hitting all 3 bets and won about 400 bucks in less than an hour at the table. Has this happened to anybody else? If so, what do you call this bet??

As others have said, your Come bets were converted to Put bets. On a win, payouts would be the same as if you had a win on your Come bets. Of course, you had the option whether to leave them up or take them down, and continue to make Come bets, later. You did not have to toss the dealer another $15. You could have just taken the $15 loss, received back your odds & started over.

I see this as the same situation when you have a hit on a Come number you've bet on, the "off & on," except in this case it's a "take & on." "Off & on" means "payOFF the win & leave the bet ON." In your case, it means "TAKE the losing flat bets, leave the bet ON (don't return the odds bets), but player puts up another $15 flat bet." Still, all this was optional to you. You didn't have to give the dealer another $15 if you didn't want to keep those same numbers working.