Laying odds on the 4 & 10 (pass & Don't pass)

How much odds do you guys usually lay on a 4 or 10 as compared to the other points? When I play the don't pass I lay the least amount of odds on the 4 & 10. Some of my biggest losses were from putting a huge lay bet behind my don't pass only to have the shooter immediately roll the 4 or 10. I find that if you are playing the don't pass and they make a couple of 4's and 10's, it's very hard to come back from that since winning only pays you half. Now I know people are going to say "according to Win Craps you should break even over the long run", now that's over the long run, I was on a table today where the shooter made the point of 4 3 times in a row but couldn't make the 6. In the short term I've been on tables where the 4 & 10 were made more often than the 7.

Now when playing the passline I'm sometimes afraid to put down a big odds bet on the 4 & 10 unless I'm way up. If I'm down a lot it's very difficult for me to justify putting a bet down that I have a 33.3% chance of winning, even though it's going to pay me double if it hits and over 1,000,000 rolls I will break even. If I'm down to my last $100 and the point is 4 or 10 and I'm on the passline I usually don't put anything down or like $5

How much do odds do you like to bet on 4 or 10's passline or don't pass players compared to what you would put down on a 5, 6, 8, or 9?

IF I'm on the pass line, then I'll typically bet 3/4/5x, or just 2/2/2x odds, depending on how much $$ I have. I don't bet based on how much in chips I have, because I typically have way more in my pocket than I do in chips.

On the don't pass, typically will lay max odds on 4/5/9/10 and typically won't lay any odds against 6/8. Sometimes I'll even over lay the 4/10.

Then again, I don't play craps much since there's no edge. Have yet to play craps with an edge, but the day I do, I'll play as long as the edge presents itself.

Lay max odds and pay no attention to you past luck with any points. To keep it sane, just don't keep betting the DC, have a stopping point so you don't have too much in action.

You know damn well the Wizard would be clucking at you for cutting back on the odds based on the past luck you had on the number.

Quote: odiousgambit

Lay max odds and pay no attention to you past luck with any points. To keep it sane, just don't keep betting the DC, have a stopping point so you don't have too much in action.

You know damn well the Wizard would be clucking at you for cutting back on the odds based on the past luck you had on the number.

Very good response.
I feel happier about some things, such as a DC bet that travels to the Four or Ten, but I neither increase nor decrease the money on it than if it had traveled to the SIX or the Eight.

Its RANDOM.

Quote: guitarmandp

How much do odds do you like to bet on 4 or 10's passline or don't pass players compared to what you would put down on a 5, 6, 8, or 9?

Playing pass line (and come) I typically bet single to double odds on 4,5,9,10 and double to triple odds on 6 and 8, depending on how I am doing. Sure sometimes the point hist when I under-bet it, and sometimes the 6 and 8 are wiped out by a 7-out in record time. And sometimes the reverse is true.

I've noticed that I need to be comfortable making a bet, or comfortable with the risk of making a baet, before I can make it habitually. For example, the good play is to let odds on come bets work on the come out roll. I know this, I even know why this is, and I rarely do it. Why? because I keep fretting about the big, bad seven which will eat my bets and not even spare the odds. The risk just seems too high and I'm uncomfortable with it.

It used to be that way with come bets at all, too, but I've gotten over it. What helped me was precise data on the risk vs reward I could expect, and practicing with Wincraps or other free craps games.

On a 3-4-5X table I will often play 3-4-3X odds.

On a $10 line wager, that's $36 on point of 6/8 and $60 on all other points.

I know that mathematically this is a worse bet than laying full odds on all points.

If I'm at a $5 table, I sometimes do the same thing - $18/30/30 but for some reason the lower the original wager the easier it is for me to lay max odds.

I know that this plan is not logical.

I rarely make any other bet - I tend to play strictly DP+odds.

Today I had $175 in green chips and I wanted another green chip and the point was 10 so I did something that I now regret. I laid two green chips behind my $30 don't pass bet (point was 10) and I also put a hard 10 down for $10. A 10 immediately rolls easy! I lost $100 on that bet! Since I had the hard 10 covered, only one combination could kill me and guess what it did! Earlier at the table 4 or 10 was the point like 5 times in a row and only once did the shooter not make it. You can preach to me about odds all you want, the risk of losing $50 is not worth the reward of winning $25. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Quote: guitarmandp

Today I had $175 in green chips and I wanted another green chip and the point was 10 so I did something that I now regret. I laid two green chips behind my $30 don't pass bet (point was 10) and I also put a hard 10 down for $10. A 10 immediately rolls easy! I lost $100 on that bet! Since I had the hard 10 covered, only one combination could kill me and guess what it did! Earlier at the table 4 or 10 was the point like 5 times in a row and only once did the shooter not make it. You can preach to me about odds all you want, the risk of losing $50 is not worth the reward of winning $25. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Two combinations could kill you. 4-6 and 6-4.

Quote: guitarmandp

Today I had $175 in green chips and I wanted another green chip and the point was 10 so I did something that I now regret. I laid two green chips behind my $30 don't pass bet (point was 10) and I also put a hard 10 down for $10. A 10 immediately rolls easy! I lost $100 on that bet! Since I had the hard 10 covered, only one combination could kill me and guess what it did! Earlier at the table 4 or 10 was the point like 5 times in a row and only once did the shooter not make it. You can preach to me about odds all you want, the risk of losing $50 is not worth the reward of winning $25. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

There is one thing that you forget.... Its an oldie but goodie..... Its called "Sh*t Happens" LOL

One little suggestion I have for that might help in that situation is this... If you are playing the DP and a player hits 2 points and knocks you off. Leave him alone and wait for the next shooter. There are more than enough shooters that will throw a seven for you that to get murdered on the one "good roll".

Another one is "thou shall not Hedge".. If you are playing the DP and feel the need to cover your bet... Your mind is telling you to take it down.... Most players get very nervous when there don't pass bet lingers for 9-13 rolls. But what you should realize is that the odds are in your favor, stay with it.... But if you see a guy who is repeating numbers, and you get knocked off, just wait for the next shooter. Its simple...

You may have loss that one result, but as you play more, that loss will be an after thought....

Quote: guitarmandp

Today I had $175 in green chips and I wanted another green chip and the point was 10 so I did something that I now regret. I laid two green chips behind my $30 don't pass bet (point was 10) and I also put a hard 10 down for $10.

The difference between wanting and needing gets me many times.

Why do you $30 don't pass bet?
Is this your system of play always?

That can not be the table minimum. just my opinion.

At $10 don't pass bet and always lay 2x odds ($40,$30 and $24) one would still have an average bet of $30
and would easily lose less over time verses always betting $30. not just my opinion.

Sure the comps would be way less than betting $30 dpass every come out roll

but I have a feeling they could overcome an actual session loss.

Here is an example of this over the Zumma actual casino dice rolls
s1 = $10 don't pass bet and always lay 2x odds
s2 = $30 don't pass bet
They were offered unlimited casino credit so they had no problem making every bet they wanted to make.

s1 had a session loss of $195 and was way way down at one point
Looks like the comps at cash back ($435) gave s1 a session win.
sweet sugar sugar Sugar

s2 lost way more and was even way down at one point.
comps were way higher than s1 as it should be but not enough cash back to erase the session loss.
That had to be paid (the large loss) and not much of a sugar sugar taste from that.

of course, no don't pass player would ever just make bets without ever laying the odds in my opinion. I know I am wrong thinking that way.
at least we would hope not

my opinion, I would rather like being in s1 shoes than s2 shoes
more fun pulling out a win from cash back with comps when more of your money is on the odds bets

this was fun
Sally

The only points I lay usually are the 6 & 8. Today I got to the casino and the first two points were both 4. I laid $20 just for kicks and lost both times. I wouldn't have had minded if those odds paid even money but they don't., so I stuck to my normal strategy and won $427 (I left $12 for tips so actually $415)

I don't care about wincraps. I saw a guy walk up to the table today and put down a $200 hard 6, hit and leave. What would win craps say about that? After over 1 million rolls you might break even laying odds so I get it, it but in a 4 hour session your not going to have 1 million rolls of the dice and anything can happen in those 4 hours.

I imagine that if you bet $200 on the Hard 6 in WinCraps that you would win that bet about as often as you would in real life.

I know there's a lot of "you only get one session - your entire life" around here but most folks consider a session to be a particular visit to the craps table.

If I walk up, buy in, play a while, then walk away - whether busted, flush or somewhere in-between - that's a session. Tomorrow is another day. Hell, if I do it again a few hours later in a different casino it's a different session in my mind.

WinCraps is the same way. Especially if you re-seed the RNG with a random number every time.

Quote: guitarmandp

I don't care about wincraps. I saw a guy walk up to the table today and put down a $200 hard 6, hit and leave. What would win craps say about that? After over 1 million rolls you might break even laying odds so I get it, it but in a 4 hour session your not going to have 1 million rolls of the dice and anything can happen in those 4 hours.

In part it depends how much you play. In part, too, how much money you spend when playing.

A tourist who won't be playing craps for money again for years is not the same as someone who plays every month, or every year. I play several sessions during my yearly trips. Mostly I do ok, but then I stick to pass, come, place 6 & 8 and only one or two hardways as two-way to split with the dealers. Sometimes these hit, sometimes not.

If you see someone buy in, palce a hardway for $200, hit it, and leave, you'd have a hard time telling them "Hey, you made a horrible bet." But if they do this often, they'll likely be way down over their lifetime of play.

I play mostly for the enjoyment I get. With my bankroll I wouldn't bet $200 on a hardway ever. If I won it would be great. I'd be able to play "for free" the rest of the trip at mroe reasonable levels. But odds are I'd lose that hardway.

Last trip when I hit the horn bet three times in a row in bubble craps, I stopped playing it. It stopped hitting, too ;)

Quote: guitarmandp

The only points I lay usually are the 6 & 8. Today I got to the casino and the first two points were both 4. I laid $20 just for kicks and lost both times. I wouldn't have had minded if those odds paid even money but they don't., so I stuck to my normal strategy and won $427 (I left $12 for tips so actually $415)

I don't care about wincraps. I saw a guy walk up to the table today and put down a $200 hard 6, hit and leave. What would win craps say about that? After over 1 million rolls you might break even laying odds so I get it, it but in a 4 hour session your not going to have 1 million rolls of the dice and anything can happen in those 4 hours.

The fact that you (and others) don't care about the house edge is exactly why the casinos win so much money.

The fact that anything can happen is why you keep going back and the house edge is why you end up losing. Do you think the casino cares if that guy left after hitting one bet? He will be back. What does the casino care if he loses that money (and more) back today or next week? Either way, he's just holding it for them.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

The fact that you (and others) don't care about the house edge is exactly why the casinos win so much money.

The fact that anything can happen is why you keep going back and the house edge is why you end up losing. Do you think the casino cares if that guy left after hitting one bet? He will be back. What does the casino care if he loses that money (and more) back today or next week? Either way, he's just holding it for them.

Casinos realize that some players can and do win and not give the money back (at their casino).

A player who plays closer to the table max and wins and leaves with a big enough win without bringing the money back can be something that they get concerned about.

Many of the casinos that have table games geared for repeat players will lower their limits to $300 to $500 just for this reason.

Yesterday, I saw a guy that I know walk with $12,000 from the blackjack table at the Silverton from a much smaller buy-in. He's gambling big frequently over there (I watched him lose $5,000 on craps and then come back with 10 purple chips to cover his marker in the middle of his blackjack play). But I'm pretty sure that they are concerned about him losing that money at one of the other casinos that he visits regularly before giving it back to the Silverton.

The guy who manages these types of things is Wayne, and he's told me specifically and personally that he would prefer that they go to a $500 limit at the Silverton because they don't have ENOUGH players like this and it can affect their bottom line if they get unlucky on someone max-betting.

You can read the earnings reports for casinos and realize that a casino can be unlucky for 3 months or 4 months and even lose for that long a period of time and it doesn't mean anything is wrong. It just means the biggest fish are winning at that moment.

But the casinos play for the long run. Not on a player-by-player basis, but they require having a high enough number of players at the highest denomination bets in order to not be vulnerable to exposure on games with low house edges.

But players can get lucky and be lifetime winners with regular play. And it doesn't mean anything is wrong.

I've seen a max-bet field better go from $2,000 to $24,000 at the Silverton .. tipping over $2,500 along the way before giving it all back. He was max-betting the field. They definitely took notice of that, even though it was the field, and the casino got lucky because he could have won $100,000 the way he was betting (recklessly at max).

The Wynn it wouldn't matter, but the Silverton? Different.

Sorry to wake up an old thread but I have a question on laying the 4 and 10. Assume this is a lay bet, as opposed to laying free odds. I apologize for my ignorance on this. The question is, as a general practice, does the player have to pre-pay the commission or only on a win? Let me know if it varies by the point you're laying.

Thank you.

Quote: Wizard

Sorry to wake up an old thread but I have a question on laying the 4 and 10. Assume this is a lay bet, as opposed to laying free odds. I apologize for my ignorance on this. The question is, as a general practice, does the player have to pre-pay the commission or only on a win? Let me know if it varies by the point you're laying.

Thank you.

I believe it varies by casino. My local the vig is collected only on the win.I believe there are some casinos that take up front vig which of course makes the bet much worse.

I sent Ahigh a message asking this question. I hope he won't mind me quoting his answer:

Quote: Ahigh

The simple rule: always win a multiple of $20 and you pay $1 for each $20 of the win

More complex rules:

Vig is only $1 for each of up to two green chips in the win if there are no smaller denomination than green in the win. So winning one or two green chips with each pay saves you $0.25 and $0.50 respectively in the vig.

Examples:
win vig
$5 1
$10 1
$20 1
$25 1*
$26 2
$50 2*
$51 3
$60 3
$61 4
$80 4
$81 5
$99 5

Each $100 won is $5 -- modulus 100 is treated the same as if the win is less than 100 .. add them up you have total vig

Beyond that you have:

Silver Sevens and Fiesta Rancho:
* Only two places I've ever known that do vig on the win on all six numbers

MGM Properties
* Vig on the win on the 4/10 only

All others
* Vig up front -- vig returned if bet taken down

I recall vig on wins only at several downtown properties. The Downtown Grand even had no vig 4/10 bets for a while. I don't know if they are still doing that promotion.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I recall vig on wins only at several downtown properties. The Downtown Grand even had no vig 4/10 bets for a while. I don't know if they are still doing that promotion.

He is asking about lay bets. I think DG had no vig on buy bets.

Here in MS, the answer is also casino dependent. Funny cause all (4, 5, 9, 10) buy bets are vig on win.