Caesars Palace changes procedures for new players

There are new procedures for the craps dealers at Caesars Palace. If a new player wants to buy in when the player has the dice -- not only are they to let the new player buy in but they don't do anything to delay the buy in. If there is money and chips being exchanged when the shooter has the dice it's okay. If someone is buying in the stickman should not delay pushing the dice to the shooter. There is no more etiquette.

I wrote about it on my website forum here: http://forum.alanbestbuys.com/showthread.php?2790-Meltdown-at-a-craps-table-at-Caesars

The table I was shooting at had a meltdown Wednesday when everything went wrong and a lot of money was lost when a new player bought in. None of the dealers delayed anything, nor did the new player, nor did the shooter -- me -- and I should have seen what was going on.

What you describe is not the worst I've seen, this business of immediately sending the dice back out can be nuts.

Frankly, I don't seriously contend that hitting hands or chips matters at all. I agree it can be a violation of etiquette though.

Playing with Teddys last Sunday, I noted he calls out "Hands!" pretty loud if it is time for him to toss and it's evident some folks on the other end are still fumbling around with something. Teddy didn't seem to set the dice and lobbed the dice pretty high, so it couldnt have been for any reason other than to avoid something that ticks a lot of players off. I've decided to emulate him on this.

They can pass the dice all they want but if it were me (as the shooter) I will wait until all transactions are complete and the table is clear.

I've done that before and the crew has responded by taking the dice back until the transaction was complete, then stick them over again.

It's all about RPM.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I wrote about it on my website forum here: http://forum.alanbestbuys.com/showthread.php?2790-Meltdown-at-a-craps-table-at-Caesars

Quote: AlanMendelson (from his forum)

...and it cost some players a lot of money.

Come on Alan, you don't actually believe in a cause and effect here, do you? The chances of a seven showing are 1 in 6, regardless of who is buying in where and what the dice hit at the other end of the table.

In fact in this situation I usually try to hit the new player on the hands, to teach them a lesson.

OG, they were moving the dice REALLY fast at Meadows. But they were also good dealers! They made quick payouts.

You should absolutely be able to buy in anytime you want. If the shooter has the dice, you should NOT make any bets or buy-ins. OG, at Meadows the guy to the right of me kept making late bets and I could tell it was really pissing the dealers off. I hinted at him many times to cut it out.

If you put money down on the table while the shooter has the dice, the dealer should call "no action on the cash, change only after the roll." If you want action immediately on your buy-in, get your money down while the dice are in the center.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Come on Alan, you don't actually believe in a cause and effect here, do you? The chances of a seven showing are 1 in 6, regardless of who is buying in where and what the dice hit at the other end of the table.

In fact in this situation I usually try to hit the new player on the hands, to teach them a lesson.

I've actually thrown dice at players if they're really being jerks. Of course I bounce it off the table first so it looks somewhat unfishy.

this is good for the game. in general, the dice should be sent as soon as possible. players don't want to stand around and wait for the game to resume, and the casino is losing money every time the dice are stuck in the center.

as for "etiquette," if players would just rid themselves of ridiculous superstitions like "new buy ins cause 7s" or "hitting a hand or some chips cause 7s," then we wouldn't have to worry about offending players. fortunately for the casinos, most players will never rid themselves of ridiculous superstitions.

Superstition or not I wouldn't want the dice to hit my hand and I never buy in until the next shooter gets the dice.

there's no reason whatsoever to wait for the next shooter to make your buy in. Just choose a moment where the dealer isn't busy paying out, and buy in. The whole concept of "it's rude" to buy in during a hand is due to the superstition that new buy ins cause 7s -- and that, itself, is due to confirmation bias because players remember when a new buy in was followed by a 7 and they forget the time a new buy in was followed by an easy 6.

On a related note, I always am very amused when I am shooting, doing well, and a die goes off the table. Players implore me to choose "same dice!" and I never do. The more hardcore fanatics will call their bets "off" for the roll after the stick dumps the bowl.

How do players even develop these illogical superstitions? I would say they are harmless, except obviously craps is a less enjoyable game if you're living in constant fear of dice going off the table, hitting a hand, a new player buying in, or someone saying the word 7. None of those things should remotely bother you, and if they do it is detracting from what should be an entertaining game.

A friend of mine is a dark side player. He always asks for different dice.

haha. the table must love that.

Quote: sodawater

haha. the table must love that.

He's had a guy take a swing at him before. Say what you will about casino security, but they get there FAST.

Quote: sodawater

On a related note, I always am very amused when I am shooting, doing well, and a die goes off the table. Players implore me to choose "same dice!" and I never do. The more hardcore fanatics will call their bets "off" for the roll after the stick dumps the bowl.

How do players even develop these illogical superstitions? I would say they are harmless, except obviously craps is a less enjoyable game if you're living in constant fear of dice going off the table, hitting a hand, a new player buying in, or someone saying the word 7. None of those things should remotely bother you, and if they do it is detracting from what should be an entertaining game.

Selective memory.

Edit: And the very next post I read is https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/17324-gambler-sues-casino-because-he-lost-while-drunk/3/#post336557

Quote: AlanMendelson

Superstition or not I wouldn't want the dice to hit my hand and I never buy in until the next shooter gets the dice.

I don't wait for a new shooter, but if the puck says "ON", I do wait for the current shooter to make his point. I don't believe it affects the dice, but it might affect the mood of other players. I have no interest in starting a session by pssng off the other players, no matter whether their thinking is illogical.

When I have the dice, I wait for my target area to clear before shooting. I don't think I have yet thrown the dice at a jerk, but I have considered it, and it's still part of my game plan.

When I was at Meadows last Sunday with the meet up. I actually hit a guy in the hands. I usually look to make sure the other end of the table is clear and I did. But whomever I hit (he wasn't with our group) make a last second bet and the dice were in the air already. He did say sorry afterword, and there was no harm done, but odiousgambit is right the stickman was pushing the dice out fast. My question is why would Caesars do this? It seems that any increase in revenue would be more than offset by pissed off players taking their action elsewhere.

Same, I don't wait for a new shooter, but it's just an asshole move to buy in (slow down the table) when the lammer is on.

It sounds like mimbo and I play this the same way. If I'm passed the dice and there's stuff going on on the other side, I'll just lay the dice back down (If I picked them up at all) and stare at the other side of the table until they finish their BS.

This is also a good, immediate, way to find out what kind of a player you're dealing with. If they wait until the lammer is off to buy in, you know you have a good guy, dark side or not. If they throw down 5 20's and throw $25 on the field mid-roll, I hope for 6's and 8's all day long. Assholes, gotta teach them a lesson.

Quote: vendman1

When I was at Meadows last Sunday with the meet up. I actually hit a guy in the hands. I usually look to make sure the other end of the table is clear and I did. But whomever I hit (he wasn't with our group) make a last second bet and the dice were in the air already. He did say sorry afterword, and there was no harm done, but odiousgambit is right the stickman was pushing the dice out fast. My question is why would Caesars do this? It seems that any increase in revenue would be more than offset by pissed off players taking their action elsewhere.

Because the bean counters don't actually play the game; they just understand that more rolls per hour means more decisions = more money.

Quote: sodawater

there's no reason whatsoever to wait for the next shooter to make your buy in. Just choose a moment where the dealer isn't busy paying out, and buy in. The whole concept of "it's rude" to buy in during a hand is due to the superstition that new buy ins cause 7s -- and that, itself, is due to confirmation bias because players remember when a new buy in was followed by a 7 and they forget the time a new buy in was followed by an easy 6.

It may be a superstitition but do you want to be that guy who bought in when the next roll was a 7-out?
Do you want to be the guy whose hands touched the dice when reaching for chips and there was a 7-out?

Craps is supposed to be an enjoyable game. Gambling is supposed to be recreational and enjoyable. I will do what is necessary to be sure I have a good time, and others will also have a good time. And if that means following superstitions then yes I will follow superstititions.

If the table thinks that after making five points on the fire bet that if I turn counter clockwise three times before the next come out roll, I will turn counter clockwise three times.

Quote: AlanMendelson

It may be a superstitition but do you want to be that guy who bought in when the next roll was a 7-out?
Do you want to be the guy whose hands touched the dice when reaching for chips and there was a 7-out?

Craps is supposed to be an enjoyable game. Gambling is supposed to be recreational and enjoyable. I will do what is necessary to be sure I have a good time, and others will also have a good time. And if that means following superstitions then yes I will follow superstititions.

If the table thinks that after making five points on the fire bet that if I turn counter clockwise three times before the next come out roll, I will turn counter clockwise three times.

well in my opinion that is absurd.

We all remember the 7 out that hits the hands, but my last trip, I hit a player's hands that went into the table really late. I had thrown about 8 times at this point already. Both dice bounce off his hands, roll around, and "Winner, x Winner, pay the line". So, it works both ways, but we only remember the 7 outs the most.

But, you are correct, it is a serious lack of etiquette, and craps is really more about the social game, so a loss of etiquette is to be mourned.

When I was a newish player (I had played enough to know better, but I was in a hurry to get into the game), the tables were mostly full, but I saw a spot on a table, and I squeezed in, and made a quick bet with chips that were in my hand. The dice pushed out, and since I was still getting settled, I was paying no attention, until the player on my immediate left made a sudden motion. It was then that I realized I had made the cardinal sin of squeezing in against the shooter. Naturally, "7 out". I had to leave the table, or I would have been lynched. They were all REALLY mad at me. I will NEVER make that mistake again.

My worst hands story happened at Paris. Lady (term used loosely, since I'm pretty sure the B word is banned) new to the game is being instructed by the base dealer, but she is slow getting bets in, or tries to change her bet while I am throwing. After 3 near misses the stick pushes the dice to me, and I am just looking at the lady to make sure she is done betting. Stick tells me "throw the dice", in a condescending tone, which was totally uncalled for. I replied, "I will when the hands get out of the way". Instead of letting it go, this jerk replies,"You shoot the dice when I send them to you". So now I reply, "Well, don't send the dice until the other end is ready." His stupid retort was, "Not my job to watch their hands".
So, now I am seething inside, but calm outside, and I figured I just saved about $30 in tip money that won't get handed out. Meanwhile, the B at the other end, finds it amusing that her hands are causing an issue, and appear to be messing with me, so she intentionally starts putting her hands out there as I am throwing. I say nothing, but I am watching, and on the next throw, I hit her hand on purpose, not a fastball, but it was enough to hurt. She quickly recoiled, and looks at me. I caught her eye and said, "hurts, doesn't it?", and then looked down to my chips so there would be no reply. The guy next to me snickered. After I 7'd out, I colored up and changed tables. Life's too short to play on a table with that kind of interaction.

Quote: AlanMendelson

It may be a superstitition but do you want to be that guy who bought in when the next roll was a 7-out?
Do you want to be the guy whose hands touched the dice when reaching for chips and there was a 7-out?

Craps is supposed to be an enjoyable game. Gambling is supposed to be recreational and enjoyable. I will do what is necessary to be sure I have a good time, and others will also have a good time. And if that means following superstitions then yes I will follow superstititions.

If the table thinks that after making five points on the fire bet that if I turn counter clockwise three times before the next come out roll, I will turn counter clockwise three times.

While I stand by my earlier comment about the chances of a 7 equaling 1/6 regardless of the circumstances, I respect your desire to respect tradition and etiquette at the craps table.

Quote: AcesAndEights

While I stand by my earlier comment about the chances of a 7 equaling 1/6 regardless of the circumstances, I respect your desire to respect tradition and etiquette at the craps table.

You are correct: the chances of a 7 are always 1/6 despite what happens at the table. I just don't want to be the "something" that happens at the table.

And the rest of you shouldn't be that "something" either.

It's very easy to say on a message board that bad etiquette means nothing... anyone hear about a player followed to their car by a couple of angry players?

Anyway, I have an "update." I got a call from another player at the table:

Apparantly the base dealer who pushed the chips to the new player later said at the table that he wanted to call a "no roll" but he said he couldn't get the words out in time, before the stick man made the call. While he said he did nothing wrong and he did not fear that other player's complaint to the casino GM, he conceded that he shouldnt have pushed out the chips at that exact time, and left them in the middle of the back wall instead of closer to the new player who was actually in the corner. Had the player not had to reach so far he would not have fumbled picking up the chips.

Alan:

I read your commentary on your blog.

Why did you throw the dice?

All that stuff going on, and at your aiming "place" and then you threw the dice...

That isn't "table procedure being violated" its someone not paying attention.

???

SFB

I don't always wait for a new shooter but I do always wait for the point to settle.

Buying in when the puck is on seems bad form.

Quote: SFB

Alan:

Why did you throw the dice?

I goofed, and I shouldn't have. But I was concentrating so much that I didn't look down the table and when I did the dice were leaving my fingers.

I had been rolling for almost a half hour. I had made three different points, plus I had many numbers in between passes, plus some come out naturals. I got caught by the "rhythm" of everything going great.

This was a $10 table and bets were pressed up to $100 per number by some players. Yeah, I got careless -- complacent.

As I wrote on my forum -- I also made a mistake.

Quote: odiousgambit

What you describe is not the worst I've seen, this business of immediately sending the dice back out can be nuts.
Frankly, I don't seriously contend that hitting hands or chips matters at all. I agree it can be a violation of etiquette though.

The BJ dealer has to smile, she has to bare her breasts (well, most of them), she has to smile, she has to shuffle, she has to chat, she has to watch her chip tray, she has to do alot, but that darned house edge only applies when she is dealing. Same thing with the dice crew, they've got a lot to do but the darned house edge only applies when the dice are in motion. Particularly at my level of play, etiquette long ago gave way to bean counter demands. Thats the way it is. Get used to it. Don't long for the days of old. They are long gone. Benny Binion is dead. He is spinning in his grave at what he sees but there is nothing you can do to grant him peace. The dice have to keep moving now. So just pick up 'em and throw them, even if you and stick are running over the base dealer at the other end of the table who are doing some sort of buyin and have their hands all over the place. If the stick pushes the dice to you, ... you shoot.

Quote: FleaStiff

The BJ dealer has to smile, she has to bare her breasts (well, most of them), she has to smile, she has to shuffle, she has to chat, she has to watch her chip tray, she has to do alot, but that darned house edge only applies when she is dealing. Same thing with the dice crew, they've got a lot to do but the darned house edge only applies when the dice are in motion. Particularly at my level of play, etiquette long ago gave way to bean counter demands. Thats the way it is. Get used to it. Don't long for the days of old. They are long gone. Benny Binion is dead. He is spinning in his grave at what he sees but there is nothing you can do to grant him peace. The dice have to keep moving now. So just pick up 'em and throw them, even if you and stick are running over the base dealer at the other end of the table who are doing some sort of buyin and have their hands all over the place. If the stick pushes the dice to you, ... you shoot.

I get it, but I am not shooting until the dealer at the far end at least finishes paying the winners from the last roll. I know they are pushed for rolls per whatever but they aren't going to run over my fun with their bean counter's desires. If you want to be fast, get some dealers who can run the table efficiently. This means both base dealers need to know how to pay the bets and the box and stick have to do their job. It isn't simply pushing the dice out that makes the game move faster.

If they want to take the dice away from me, that is fine. Heck, they may even be doing me a favor!! When I have the dice, the game moves at a deliberate pace, if the dealers can do the same. Not 100 mph, but we move pretty quick. It is usually the dealers and their lack of control of the game that causes the issues; not the speed in which I pick up and chuck the dice.

Quote: odiousgambit

Playing with Teddys last Sunday, I noted he calls out "Hands!" pretty loud if it is time for him to toss and it's evident some folks on the other end are still fumbling around with something. Teddy didn't seem to set the dice and lobbed the dice pretty high, so it couldnt have been for any reason other than to avoid something that ticks a lot of players off. I've decided to emulate him on this.

DICE OUT, WATCH YOUR MITTENS, KITTENS!

Quote: RaleighCraps

Stick tells me "throw the dice", in a condescending tone, which was totally uncalled for. I replied, "I will when the hands get out of the way". Instead of letting it go, this jerk replies,"You shoot the dice when I send them to you". So now I reply, "Well, don't send the dice until the other end is ready." His stupid retort was, "Not my job to watch their hands".

Watching players' hands may not be in the dealers' manuals, but it surely ought to be in whatever common sense they have. As a Don't Come bettor, I customarily stand as close to the base dealer as possible. If the stick and base are speeding up because they're under pressure to make rolls per hour, because they are not used to handling the don'ts or some other reason that should not be a factor, the loud and clear message to me as a player is to get lost. It's not very useful or much fun to keep playing at a table where you're not being treated correctly.

Quote: sodawater

On a related note, I always am very amused when I am shooting, doing well, and a die goes off the table. Players implore me to choose "same dice!" and I never do. The more hardcore fanatics will call their bets "off" for the roll after the stick dumps the bowl.

How do players even develop these illogical superstitions? I would say they are harmless, except obviously craps is a less enjoyable game if you're living in constant fear of dice going off the table, hitting a hand, a new player buying in, or someone saying the word 7. None of those things should remotely bother you, and if they do it is detracting from what should be an entertaining game.

it works because distractions throw the shooter off from focus. (Dice off table, Craps being rolled, Stick man/dealer change) turning off bets at this time is very good strategy. 7 out quite a bit.

Quote: CrapsGenious

it works because distractions throw the shooter off from focus. (Dice off table, Craps being rolled, Stick man/dealer change) turning off bets at this time is very good strategy. 7 out quite a bit.

Why is this guy allowed to troll this forum?

Quote: AZDuffman

DICE OUT, WATCH YOUR MITTENS, KITTENS!

Hahahahaha, I like that one.