New to gambling - Craps.
One of the best possible plays at craps is if you have a friend making line or come bets and not taking full odds. You take the rest of his odds and you're now gambling with 0 house edge. Just make sure you calculate the splits correctly when your bets are paid.
SFB
Sounds like you didn't play any odds? If not, you have picked a game with little variance. What you should expect is what I like to call "wobbly circling of the drain". Your bankroll is heading down the drain, but slowly with some unexciting intervals where it spurts back up a bit [wobbling]. Standard deviation for the line bets are approximately "one", meaning little variance.
When I play craps my bankroll is heading south too, but not in this fashion, which I don't like. Maybe you'll be fine with it, if your bankroll is small there is the excitement about preserving it I guess. But I want you to know what you are up against.
The first screenshot from a Wincraps game shows the first 200 rolls or so with a guy who just plays the min on the pass line. At one point he is up 10 units, $50 if it was a $5 table; that's pretty good actually. The second one shows where he is at around 2000 rolls; note that 10 units was the peak for him, evidently never to be seen again. Take my word for it, this is just a typical experience with that kind of betting.
That chart is really interesting. As much as I would love to play for hours on end, I am one of those types where if I was +$50. I'd walk away and come back later. Same with the other way, if I lost my $50 buy in, that would be it.
Quote: SkittleCar1I bought in for $50. Same thing, I kept winning, he kept losing (a lot.) He yells to me, "You are smart to keep betting against me!!" My reply to him was, "I'm not betting against you, I'm betting for myself!" He got a good laugh and we had a good time.
Sounds like a nice guy. Most of the time when you're betting the Don't with only one other player at the table, they tend to get all bent out of shape when they lose. Glad to see that the old guy was cool about it and knew that you were betting against the dice, not him. It's a pleasure playing with players who actually understand this, and whenever they win, I am genuinely happy for them even though I get killed in the process.
Anyways, If you put $5 on Come and a 6 is rolled. The $5 moves to the 6 and I take full odds for $50. The next roll is a 6 so my bet wins but the original bet stays there. The next roll is an 8 so I bet a $5 come bet again. If the next roll is 6 again does the $5 get moved to the 6 as well but now I can add more to the odds? So now I have $10 plus $100 in odds? Is that right or does the come bet just stay there since I already have the 6?
Quote: GWAESorry OP for asking a question but I have an easy dumb question that I didn't want to start a new thread for.
Anyways, If you put $5 on Come and a 6 is rolled. The $5 moves to the 6 and I take full odds for $50. The next roll is a 6 so my bet wins but the original bet stays there. The next roll is an 8 so I bet a $5 come bet again. If the next roll is 6 again does the $5 get moved to the 6 as well but now I can add more to the odds? So now I have $10 plus $100 in odds? Is that right or does the come bet just stay there since I already have the 6?
$5 come goes to 6 w/$50 odds
6 gets rolled it comes down and you get paid unless you have another $5/come. then it stays there and you get paid but stays $5 w/$50 odds. It does not go to 10.
the only way is if you wager $10/come. in this case if you have a $10 come and 6 gets rolled, you get paid on the 6 and then $10 goes to the 6 w/ your choice of odds upto $100.
All come bets come down and get paid when they are rolled if you have no come bet.
Quote: CrapsGenious$5 come goes to 6 w/$50 odds
6 gets rolled it comes down and you get paid unless you have another $5/come. then it stays there and you get paid but stays $5 w/$50 odds. It does not go to 10.
the only way is if you wager $10/come. in this case if you have a $10 come and 6 gets rolled, you get paid on the 6 and then $10 goes to the 6 w/ your choice of odds upto $100.
All come bets come down and get paid when they are rolled if you have no come bet.
TU CG I guess that makes sense since a come bet with odds is like a pass line with odds. When I was playing the other day I didn't notice them coming down but I wasn't watching for it either.
Quote: GWAESorry OP for asking a question but I have an easy dumb question that I didn't want to start a new thread for.
No problem! There are no dumb questions. Any knowledge is n00bs get can only help us!
Quote: GWAETU CG I guess that makes sense since a come bet with odds is like a pass line with odds. When I was playing the other day I didn't notice them coming down but I wasn't watching for it either.
If you are making a come bet every time, instead of taking the old one down, paying you, and moving the new one to the same spot, the dealer will just give you the payout from the old one and leave the old and new come bets in place for the next roll.
Quote: wudgedIf you are making a come bet every time, instead of taking the old one down, paying you, and moving the new one to the same spot, the dealer will just give you the payout from the old one and leave the old and new come bets in place for the next roll.
Today I played my first session utilizing come bets. I really enjoyed doing so however, how do you make money? I was playing $5 pass with 2x odds and $5 come bets with 2x odds on those as well. I kept the come bet going until 7 out and I never pressed. Eventually on about every other shooter I would have all 6 numbers covered with come bets and when the 7 came I would lose $94 that I had on all of the numbers. For the people who play this way or similar do you only use a come bet for a few throws and try to get the numbers down instead of letting it always play? It just seems impossible to make money this way unless there was a long roll. Or is that what you are hoping for? Can 1 or 2 long rolls make or break your entire session?
I will keep learning this game because I really enjoyed my 2 hour session.
Quote: GWAEToday I played my first session utilizing come bets. I really enjoyed doing so however, how do you make money? I was playing $5 pass with 2x odds and $5 come bets with 2x odds on those as well. I kept the come bet going until 7 out and I never pressed. Eventually on about every other shooter I would have all 6 numbers covered with come bets and when the 7 came I would lose $94 that I had on all of the numbers. For the people who play this way or similar do you only use a come bet for a few throws and try to get the numbers down instead of letting it always play? It just seems impossible to make money this way unless there was a long roll. Or is that what you are hoping for? Can 1 or 2 long rolls make or break your entire session?
I will keep learning this game because I really enjoyed my 2 hour session.
The usual recommended way is the "3 point molly." This is taking pass line with odds, then up to 2 come bets with odds. I guess the theory behind that is if there's a quick 7 out, or a roll that hits every number then 7 out, you won't lose [as] much. If there are 1-2 quick repeaters you will be up a little but, but in position to withstand a long roll.
Betting continuous come is really no different than sticking with just a pass line bet - it just increases your variance, and for many increases the enjoyment. For most people craps is a game of action, so they want to have as many bets out as possible. Really with come betting you just want lots of repeating numbers (and not of the 2/3/12 variety,) and hopefully longer rolls but it's not necessarily required. A hand of X, Y, Y, 7 (where X and Y are in {4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10} and not equal to one another) is a "lousy" hand, but still profitable for a pass/come bettor.
Quote: wudgedThe usual recommended way is the "3 point molly." This is taking pass line with odds, then up to 2 come bets with odds. I guess the theory behind that is if there's a quick 7 out, or a roll that hits every number then 7 out, you won't lose [as] much. If there are 1-2 quick repeaters you will be up a little but, but in position to withstand a long roll.
Betting continuous come is really no different than sticking with just a pass line bet - it just increases your variance, and for many increases the enjoyment. For most people craps is a game of action, so they want to have as many bets out as possible. Really with come betting you just want lots of repeating numbers (and not of the 2/3/12 variety,) and hopefully longer rolls but it's not necessarily required. A hand of X, Y, Y, 7 (where X and Y are in {4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10} and not equal to one another) is a "lousy" hand, but still profitable for a pass/come bettor.
so when people do the 3 point molly I would assume if you hit one of the 2 that you have and it comes down you would them place a come bet again?
Like you said it is a game of action and today I had more action than I have ever had on a craps table. It was really fun and I only lost $70 in 2 hours which I thought was great for the amount of money I had on the table.
Quote: GWAE
so when people do the 3 point molly I would assume if you hit one of the 2 that you have and it comes down you would them place a come bet again?
Yep, exactly. Some people even limit it to 2 points only (pass + 1 come) or play it on the don't pass/don't come instead. Of course if one hits (depending on the odds you took vs your other flats) you could always take down your odds and leave only the flats to "lock up" a win for that particular shooter, and then start replacing them slowly if your remaining bets end up winning and he goes on a really long roll. Of course the "lock up" win doesn't really mean anything, but it's a way to play a little more conservatively.
Quote: GWAEEventually on about every other shooter I would have all 6 numbers covered with come bets.
I don't know if you were observing Teddy at our WoV East get-together. I believe he was maximizing every chance to get a come bet going with odds [did not note if they were full odds]. With other type bets too, maybe, memory fades a bit. This contrasted with what I was doing, which was to occasionally make an come bet with full odds, then even more rarely try for three numbers with full odds going. That time around Teddy won the brass ring. Next time it might have been me, if he was too exposed *and* if my hunches as to when to bet more were more fortuitously timed.
Some things to realize:
*Come bets are a way of betting more. They are *not* expected to increase your chances over getting the *same amount* of line-with-odds-action more slowly, one pass at a time. Betting more means losing more, on average, in negative expectation.
*Trust me on this: you do not want to feel you are doing well if you pile up a bunch of points to make. You feel you are doing well when you keep making come bets, then realize that you don't have a bunch of points to make *because* those numbers hit. Say: the point is 4, you make a come bet, it travels to the 10, then, oh durn it, the 4 rolls and you get paid on that; you make another come bet, the 6 rolls & travels; then the 10 rolls, you get paid on that; you make another come bet, the 6 rolls and you get paid; dadgum it, you just keep making come bets but where are all those points to make? you keep only having 1 or 2 points to make and have to keep making those come bets to replace what you had! [g] So when I was making more bets with the *possibility* of 3 points to make, what I really wanted was the other 2 numbers to get rolled and find that 3 numbers going was hard to achieve.
That, sir, is when you are making money.
Personally, I like to have a come bet every roll. If you do get all 6 point numbers covered, the way you "make money" is to hit a few of them before the 7. Just like any other right-side bet at craps.
Quote: sodawaterCome bets are not "related" to one another, so it doesn't really matter how many you keep in play at any given time. You should bet however much you want to bet. There's nothing special about having a line bet with two come bets for a total of three numbers. Each number your come bet gets moved to is going against just the 7, and nothing else.
Personally, I like to have a come bet every roll. If you do get all 6 point numbers covered, the way you "make money" is to hit a few of them before the 7. Just like any other right-side bet at craps.
but when you have all 6 covered do you keep placing the come bet? I had all 6 covered 5 different times. There was never more than 2 points made. At this particular table the people who were just placing numbers were making a bunch and us come betters were just treading water.
Since this was my first time using the come bet I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something stupid. It seems like there are some that like a 2 or 3 covered and others who like to have all the action.
Another question: ($10 table)
If I want to have a max exposure of $90 on a roll is it better for me to have 1 $10 pass with 8x odds or 1 pass line with 2x odds and 2 come bets with 2x odds? My guess is it would be basically the same HE (depending on the number) but my variance would be higher with just 1 bet with odds.
Quote: wudgedVariance would be higher with 1 point, but EV would be better (greater / less negative.) This is because you would be exposing only $10 to the 1.4% HE vs a total of $30 with the 3 points.
ahh yes I did not think of that. I will keep that in mind next time I play.
Now I do not play craps much but today I was playing next to a guy that was betting $200 pass plus max odds and placing the inside numbers for $400-$500 each. I have never seen so much money in action. The one guy rolled about 9 numbers and 2 points and this guy was filling his rack with purple chips quicker than I could with white.
He cashed out for a lot. Many pumpkins. I can't even imagine how much money he loses on a bad day if this is his normal betting.
Anyway, he blew through all 30k in about a half hour, and took out another 30k. Lost all that, then requested a third marker. He was told he was cutoff and had to quit playing. I suppose it's not all that much different than seeing people betting $10k+ on a single hand of baccarat/blackjack/roulette/whatever, but with craps it seems so much more ridiculous because the 7 can swing so much money one way [or the other.]
Quote: GWAEbut when you have all 6 covered do you keep placing the come bet? I had all 6 covered 5 different times.
No, not if you're worried about too much exposure. Perhaps my previous answer seemed a little flippant. But I repeat, having 6 numbers covered, when none are place bets, all being come bets that traveled, is not a sign things went well [with rare exception]. You're speaking of having a limited exposure. Absolutely you thus have *no reason* to keep making come bets. To think you "need" to have all the numbers covered is like believing in a betting system.
Quote: odiousgambitNo, not if you're worried about too much exposure. Perhaps my previous answer seemed a little flippant. But I repeat, having 6 numbers covered, when none are place bets, all being come bets that traveled, is not a sign things went well [with rare exception]. You're speaking of having a limited exposure. Absolutely you thus have *no reason* to keep making come bets. To think you "need" to have all the numbers covered is like believing in a betting system.
I think your last post confused me. So what you were saying is, you will make money if you always have a come bet but you still only have 2 or 3 numbers covered which means they keep getting rolled.?
Quote: GWAESo what you were saying is, you will make money if you always have a come bet but you still only have 2 or 3 numbers covered which means they keep getting rolled.?
Yes, that is an ideal situation!
But I note that you seem to have zeroed in on the idea that it is a good thing to have all numbers covered somehow. Actually, I think that is just a lot of exposure, both in being a lot of total action to have out there and also potentially in HE, if you turn to place bets to get it done. A lot of players accept the HE for placing the 6 or 8, but for me it's too much. I made one such bet at the Meadows. The HE for the other numbers, placed, is definitely too high. Why would I say that? Because it is possible to get as much action as you'd ever want and walk away from the Craps table knowing that the HE your total action faced was a small fraction of 1%. Be able to say that is my advice.
Show me where the Wizard says "be sure to have all the numbers covered". I really think you have picked up the wrong notion. Be happy with one or two, maybe 3 numbers to make. Making sure you have all 6 is just not important.
Quote: GWAEbut when you have all 6 covered do you keep placing the come bet?
Yes. Nothing has changed. If my preference is for making a come bet every roll, what has happened in the past doesn't change that.
Quote: sodawaterIf my preference is for making a come bet every roll, what has happened in the past doesn't change that.
I agree.
But for the Craps beginner, he needs to understand this is a choice a player makes to have that much action in a given number of rolls. It is not a 'betting system' expected to do better than someone who, say, doesn't play the Come at all. We can see the confusion about that in the above questions that are being asked.
1 thing that confused me today which I didn't notice in the past. Say I had a come bet with odds and the point was made. If the shooter then threw a 7 they would return my odds on the come bets and I lost the come bet. I didn't realize they were working when there was no point. Once I realized that was the case I kept my odds on at all times.
Quote: GWAEI didn't realize they were working when there was no point. Once I realized that was the case I kept my odds on at all times.
that doesnt make sense, so I think you mean you didn't realize they weren't working. The normal way to say this btw is "on the come-out" instead of "when there was no point"; the latter way of putting it can be confusing, since you have come bets.
I'm glad you are no longer concerned about having all the numbers covered!
What is REALLY going on when you make a come bet....you're making a 1.41% (or 1.42%? Whatever) house edge bet, then putting some large amount of $$ backing it up. That odds bet is simply just an increase in variance. It doesn't change the house edge.
Let's put it this way, a $330 place on 8 pays $385. $30 come with $300 odds pays $390. Most places are either 555 or 345 odds, not 10 10 10.
A $330 placed 5 pays $462 whereas $30 come + $300 odds pays $480. Significant enough difference, I'll give you that. $330 buy on 4 pays 643, where as come+odds pays 630.
Craps should be played for fun...not seriously (unless you're a dice setter or found another advantage).....and for me, and probably most others, more fun is had by choosing your numbers and the ability to take it down, press, etc. I used to be a come+max(5x) odds bettor, until I realized the game is just for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously. Plus, it's full of b***** old men who complain about the dice hitting the chips or it hitting the dealer/player's hand. News flash: shit doesn't make a difference, and if you think it does, look at where you're throwing and don't throw the dice when someone's hands are out. These are the people that go home every night, thinking, "If only the dice didn't hit the player's hand, I would have won tonight. I'm a real good player, I just got unlucky because that idiot f***** everything up! I'll win tomorrow though!!" And the next day, the same exact thing happens.
Example: Pass-odds and point is 5, place the sister 9, and place the 6 and 8. Makes the point 5. Next point is 6 so pass-odds covers the 6 and leave sister 8 place bet up and also leave the 9 place bet up.
Quote: odiousgambitthat doesnt make sense, so I think you mean you didn't realize they weren't working. The normal way to say this btw is "on the come-out" instead of "when there was no point"; the latter way of putting it can be confusing, since you have come bets.
I'm glad you are no longer concerned about having all the numbers covered!
sorry this is all new to me. So if a point is established and then made the button is off so the next through is called the come out?
I know I know, talking to me about this is like beating your head off of a wall.
So I guess what I should have said. On a come out roll I didn't realize that I lose my come bets if a 7 was thrown. In this case I was losing my come bet but the odds were returned to me. Since that was happening I decided to just keep my odds working on come out throws. I saw teddy doing this so I figured why not. Thinking about it now, since I am on a limited bankroll I am probably better off just keeping them off. Is it proper to call them on/off or working/ non working. Sometimes I would say to the dealer work my odds, and they would say you want them on? Next time I would say turn on the odds, and they would say you want them working?
One huge mistake that I made yesterday was I went up $80 right away. I decided to play $5 plus 3x odds. Normally I would take 2x but I wasn't going to be there long so I figured what the hell. Well when I dropped back down to $100 I forgot to go back to 1x odds and a few PSO and I was just about broke. When I realized my mistake I just walked with my $20 that I had left. I know, stupid mistake but I was concentrating so hard on different bets that people were making. 1 guy talked me into making a whirl bet when I was shooting. I figured sure what the hell. He was so into this bet, he was saying you can't lose since you have all numbers covered and if you through 11 or 12 it gave you a win. There is a sucker born every minute I guess.
I was also pretty excited that I made a 4 point fire on my first throw and everyone at the table (6 people) had money on the fire and even the dealers had $2. I had made 4, 5, 9, 10. I had the 6 lit up (not sure what term to use here) but sevened out quickly. I was pretty pumped about my roll and a few min later a new lady came to the table and asked how it was going. The floor person was standing there and said, "he just threw a 4 point fire but no repeaters so it wasn't very good." That made me sad. :-(
The center bet you made was a "world" bet not "whirl". It covers the 2,3,11,12, and 7. If you roll a 7 it's a push (pays 4 to 1). You can make good money if you roll a lot of 2's and 12's on the come out roll particularly if you press the world bet after a win and then a 2 or 12 is rolled. Of course if you don't roll any of those numbers you lose. With a limited bankroll I'd definitely avoid center bets including world bets - the house edge is high on all center bets.
From Wizard of Odds: Another common bet is the “world” which is five equal bets on the 2, 3, 7, 11, and 12.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
Quote: PBguy^^^ Yes, when the button is "Off" then the throw is a come out roll. You can call your odds on come bets working or on the dealers should understand either way but make sure they place an "On" button on your bets (just one is needed) to indicate they are working.
The center bet you made was a "world" bet not "whirl". It covers the 2,3,11,12, and 7. If you roll a 7 it's a push (pays 4 to 1). You can make good money if you roll a lot of 2's and 12's on the come out roll particularly if you press the world bet after a win and then a 2 or 12 is rolled. Of course if you don't roll any of those numbers you lose. With a limited bankroll I'd definitely avoid center bets including world bets - the house edge is high on all center bets.
From Wizard of Odds: Another common bet is the “world” which is five equal bets on the 2, 3, 7, 11, and 12.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
doh. Under the wizards other comments at the bottom.
Don't listen to the advice of the other players, especially those betting anything in the middle of the table.
Quote: GWAEThinking about it now, since I am on a limited bankroll I am probably better off just keeping them off.
In this case I would suggest making less come bets, but if you want the action then that's a compromise you have to make.
Quote: GWAEIs it proper to call them on/off or working/ non working.
You can say either and the dealer will know what you're talking about. I think "working" is much clearer to understand than "on" if the casino is busy/noisy.
Quote: PBguyThe center bet you made was a "world" bet not "whirl".
That is correct but IIRC at the Meadows it actually reads 'whirl' on the felt.
Quote: odiousgambitThat is correct but IIRC at the Meadows it actually reads 'whirl' on the felt.
maybe it is Pittsburghese
The whirl bet is sometimes known as the world bet in craps and they are the same exact thing. This bet consists of a combination of bets that includes the horn bet and the any seven bet. The horn bet itself is a combination of different bets in which you are wagering on the shooter rolling a 2, 3, 11 or 12. Any of these numbers wins the horn bet. The other part of the whirl bet is the any 7 wager. All you need to do there is get a seven.
from lolcraps.com
Quote: PBguyI've never heard it called a 'whirl' bet but apparently they're used interchangeably - at least in some places.
A "whirl bet" like....weeeeeee :)
I guess with all the mesh of accents in the USA it is quite plausible that the WORLD bet might be called a "whirl" :)
Quote: GWAEI was playing today at the Meadows. The table started with 6 people including me. There were 5 on my side and one just to the other side of the stickman. The other 4 people on my side were playing the don't. The girl on the other side was playing for her first time. She ended up making 4 numbers and made the 9 at least 6 times. All of the don't left during her roll. Me and her had the table alone for almost an hour in mid afternoon on a Saturday. The other $5 table was completely full. It was really strange but it was great getting to throw the dice every other turn.
I've seen that before. It's to the point that if I know it's a virgin shooter I'm placing a firebet just for the hell of it.
Quote: FleaStiffI think its better to buy in for $100 and give yourself a shot at it. $50 is simply too likely to drain your bankroll right away.
I agree. Especially if you lose a few right off the bat and then don't have enough to play 2 come bets if that is what you are doing.
Quote: SkittleCar1I will probably start doing that, now that I am more comfortable with bringing that much to the table.
Here is what I do that gives me a psychological advantage against myself.
I go to a $5 table with $140. After every seven out I pull a $5 chip off of the table. I know that I will go at least 8 people before busting out which leaves me with a max loss of $100. If I ever get paid a green chip which they will do if I have a bunch of red on the rack then I will pull that instead of red on the next 7 out. The other day I played for 4 hours and when I walked away I had $220 in chips in my pockets.
FWIW, I color up before I leave the table so I don't pull too many off of the table.
Quote: GWAEI tried playing the dark side today and it was just no fun. I will stick to the ever so slight disadvantage to playing pass and come (compared to the dark side). The one thing that I don't like is if I play $5 don't come and $10 odds on a 10 and a 7 is rolled I only get back $5 on my odds bet. When you play a come bet that $10 odds gets paid $15. I guess you will win it more often with the don't come but it just feels wrong to get paid 1/2 of what you bet. I was also the only one at the table playing don't pass so it just felt like I was an outsider. Its all a learning process but I am really enjoying craps now and I haven't taken a beating yet so that always helps.
The odds are reversed for the Don't side. On a 3-4-5X table, you can bet $15/$20/$25 to win $30 on the pass line. On the dark side, you wager the $30 to win the $15/$20/$25.
In the end, both odds bets are the same - one wins more money but less often, the other wins more often but pays less.
Whatever maximizes your enjoyment of the game is the right way to play.
