Are Casinos Cheating With Loaded Dice?
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62 members have voted
Above is a link to a 40 some page thread about this topic.
Personally, I do not think casinos intentionally use biased dice.
Quote: JB85Personally, I do not think casinos intentionally use biased dice.
They sure as heck don't.
But its like that "secret button" that adjusts the slot machine payout rate... how could a casino owner EVER get a good nights sleep if some loser fresh off a pizza delivery gig could invite all his friends over and then press the button?
Its the same way with loaded dice. The casino wants fair dice. Fair dice are in favor of the casino because the game is in favor of the casino. Loaded dice don't make all that much of a difference but sneak them in to the game, invite your friends and bet big! What casino owner could sleep if that were the situation?
I once bet the dark side in North Las Vegas and lost my bankroll rapidly. That was my first and last time thinking that the casino had switched in loaded dice. I was 22 then!
Quote: FleaStiffIts the same way with loaded dice. The casino wants fair dice. Fair dice are in favor of the casino because the game is in favor of the casino.
This is really it. The game is already loaded; why load the dice as well? No conspiracy theories needed here -- you are losing because you are playing a negative expectation game.
Also having seen many casino's open the tables , the table crew has no idea what
result that would produce.
Some people say well you see fewer 6 & 8 numbers, well that means there are more
5,9,4,10 which pay better.
I have enough to worry about.
dicesetter
And as they mentioned above, the game itself is already in the house's favor. It would not benefit them to have loaded dice....
Any dice that has a bias can be exploited because the advantage on the biased numbers gives an advantage, where as the completely random dice will provide the casino with an advantage on every roll.
Harley fomented that thread, just as he is now trying to do on that other forum. Be sure to ask him the location of the boxman's button to flip the magnets under the felt. The replies on this new thread are just a small sampling of the basic logic that finally terminated that other exercise.Quote: JB85https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13918-biased-dice-the-science-begins/ Above is a link to a 40 some page thread about this topic.
Quote: SanchoPanzaHarley fomented that thread, just as he is now trying to do on that other forum. Be sure to ask him the location of the boxman's button to flip the magnets under the felt. The replies on this new thread are just a small sampling of the basic logic that finally terminated that other exercise.
A lot of not so smart people in this world. I have people once in a while saying the shufflers make the cards come out so the players lose. I then ask how the shuffler knows how many players are at the table and which cards the dealer might get. The answer most of the time, instead of "that's true", is "they just know".
ZCore13
Quote: beachbumbabsWelcome back, Zcore! I was just wondering yesterday why I hadn't seen you posting lately.
Missing Ahigh no doubt!
If you feel so strongly about that you can do two things. 1) Play only in New Jersey, where state law regulates virtually every aspect of the dice or 2) Bet the don'ts and Lays.Quote: Dicenor33Some dice might be heavier than the other, or the edges might be worn out. I believe house can influence the game, either by dice or padding. They watch if right bettors win than they can make the game cold and visa versa.
Many shooters ask for the same die when it goes off the table, so speeding up the game is negligible. In fact, I would argue that making every shooter pick 2 of the 5 dice is actually slower, since some people take a long time to decide.
In addition, have you ever tried to get the same 2 dice that the previous shooter was throwing? They won't let you. In fact, they will usually mix them even more, and I have had boxmen put their hands over the whole pile of dice while they mixed them. Why?
My opinion is the casinos do fear that a pair of dice may have a bias to them, albeit unintentional. By forcing you to pick 2 of 5 dice, the casino is ensuring randomness, even if the dice are not completely unbiased.
If every dice was unbalanced in the same way, it would become obvious to the players, and could be exploited with the correct betting play.
However, what if each die in the 5 dice set was unbalanced to different numbers? It would be impossible, as a player, to take advantage of this type of unbalance. Every 2 dice combination would have a skew towards a different number, and by the time you figured it out, a 7 out would have occurred and a 'new' pair of dice have been selected for the next roll.
The question I have for the math experts (most of whom are probably not looking at this thread) follows;
This is purely a mental exercise. I don't want to discuss why a casino would even entertain cheating. I just want to understand, from a mathematical perspective, would it be possible to gain an edge.
Are there any combinations of dice weighting that would end up in the casino's favor. For instance, assume the shooter grabbed two dice that both had an unbalance in favor of the 6. The DP players push on the Come Outs, the PL players lose, so overall the casino is favored. Of course, if that was the known case, the player would just play the 12, which would hurt the casino, even with the high HE of that bet.
However, the player would have to be able to recognize that the 6s were showing up more than reasonable, and start betting the 12, BEFORE the 7 out initiates a new dice combination. Until that recognition occurred, wouldn't the casino have a slight advantage with that particular dice combination?
Given we have 5 dice to choose from (A,B,C,D,E) how many different pair combinations are possible? I think I am correct with 10.
AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE, DE
Assume the "A" is biased toward the 6, and the "B" is biased toward the 1.
When a shooter grabbed this combination, there is going to be a higher number of 7s thrown. The PL players will win more Come Out rolls, but are probably not going to win the point. The DP players are going to lose on the Come Outs, but are likely to win their Don't Point. However, I would think this combination of dice would still be in the casino favor, since there are generally way more PL players than DP players, and the PL odds bets will all lose. Again, once the players become aware of this bias, they would all switch to the DP, but given a new combination of dice is put in play after the 7 out, there would not be a chance to capitalize from this bias.
So, is there a bias that could be applied to each die in a 5 dice set, in a way that would benefit the casino?
Quote: sodawaterNo, if they had loaded dice it would be easy for an employee to tell a confederate to bet the other way and exploit it.
It probably happens, but extremely rarely. Only someone who stands to profit would put in loaded dice, not some floorperson hoping to look good over the course of a decade for an eventual promotion. It would also take a conspiracy, you can't just put unauthorized dice in the game and hope no one notices.
Actually, explain to me how the magic dice favor a 7 at all. Does the 2nd die take a look to see how the first die landed before it decides where to land? Were all your 7-outs the same combination?
I don't suppose that it's occurred to you that you are not beating the game because the house has a mathematical edge?
Quote: MoscaOnce you've found the loaded dice, bet the don'ts, and keep your mouth shut.
And don't forget to wear your tin foil hat while doing so.
If you are there to observe a game being opened, you can openly watch the box person open the new packaging of dice, and go through a series of tests to make sure the dice are not loaded, magnetic, etc. It's not a back-room operation where the dice are played with then brought to a table.
Not to mention, we have a pretty equal amount of don't bettors and do bettors. Loaded dice would be of no benefit to our casino.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicePlease explain to me how these magic dice favor a 7 after a come-out roll but not on the come-out roll.
Exactly. If a casino was reckless enough to introduce loaded dice, twelve (boxcars) would be the ideal number because it sabotages both Pass and Don't Pass. But what casino would want to risk paying all those 30 to 1 wins for bets on 12?
This is a silly discussion because of the overwhelming incentive for the casino to keep the dice random: the odds are already rigged. If the dice are random, the game is immune from advantage plays. If the dice are weighted, the game is vulnerable to advantage play.
ZCore13
Biased dice... no, not when they are first put into use. Wear and tear does occur to the dice, and slivering is known. Thats shame on the Casino. They "should replace" if they sliver on the edges. As we all know theres no law and the effect is quite minimal. Otherwise I basically +1 all the opines that they're fair when put into use. But yours truly has seen some very "unusual" circumstances, and looked at a logging or two by others. AFAIK, nothing serious or criminal was ever proven and nothing "made the newspapers". So outside my mouthwash about that incident and maybe one or two others that actually witnessed it, it means nothing, and thats what it is... nothing.
It's rather like a donkey derby with ten runners and offering 8/1 on all of them - if any donkey had form, then people in the know would pile their money on it.
btw I've always had an interesting mathematical problem. Suppose you were [an on-course] bookmaker who somehow (via time travel, cheating etc.) knew all the results beforehand AND the punters knew you know; what odds should you set (assuming you have to set odds for every runner).
My feeling is you should ignore the information (except perhaps near the off) and just trade normally. For instance if you always had lower odds that other bookmakers on the winner, everyone would just bet the horses with lower odds.
A few months back i was playing in a casino where everyone at table was losing...I mean nobody coud make a point . At the table were all random shooters and right side bettors.
After the last shooter 7'd out, i asked for the same dice and tipped the dealer. I set the dice for a box number and put a bet on the Don't Pass. Then , i proceeded to roll the dice randomly (not setting) and within 2-4 rolls the seven would show as expected.
I tipped the dealer and asked for the same dice again....this time however, i called a bunch of my friends over and told them what was going on the with biased dice, and told them to join the fun and everyone bet the don't.
I once again bet don't pass, then randomly rolled the dice and within a few rolls 7 out...everyone at the table won....The next shooter asked for the same dice and did exactly what i did...We won 20 decisions in a row...within a few rolls 7 out....The casino was forced to be on the do side and once we found the bias, there was no way the casino could beat us...we knew the 7 would roll within a few rolls.
Next time you find bad dice...see how the casino likes it being on the do side....and beat them at their own game by playing the don't side.
Quote: HowardrocknrollBad dice? Here is how i beat the casino with the questionable dice at their own game .
A few months back i was playing in a casino where everyone at table was losing...I mean nobody coud make a point . At the table were all random shooters and right side bettors.
After the last shooter 7'd out, i asked for the same dice and tipped the dealer. I set the dice for a box number and put a bet on the Don't Pass. Then , i proceeded to roll the dice randomly (not setting) and within 2 rolls the seven would show as expected.
I tipped the dealer and asked for the same dice again....this time however, i called a bunch of my friends over and told them what was going on the with biased dice, and told them to join the fun and everyone bet the don't.
I once again bet don't pass, then randomly rolled the dice and within a few rolls 7 out...everyone at the table won....The next shooter asked for the same dice and did exactly what i did...We won 20 decisions in a row...within a few rolls 7 out....The casino was forced to be on the do side and once we found the bias, there was no way the casino could beat us.
Next time you find bad dice...see how the casino likes it being on the do side....and kill them playing the don't
wow. nice job spotting those biased dice in time! your sample size was DEFINITELY large enough to prove a bias in the dice, a bias that also somehow caused the 7s to appear on the second or later roll, not on the come out. I would say you not only found biased dice, you found SENTIENT dice.
Quote: HowardrocknrollBad dice? Here is how i beat the casino with the questionable dice at their own game .
A few months back i was playing in a casino where everyone at table was losing...I mean nobody coud make a point . At the table were all random shooters and right side bettors.
After the last shooter 7'd out, i asked for the same dice and tipped the dealer. I set the dice for a box number and put a bet on the Don't Pass. Then , i proceeded to roll the dice randomly (not setting) and within 2 rolls the seven would show as expected.
I tipped the dealer and asked for the same dice again....this time however, i called a bunch of my friends over and told them what was going on the with biased dice, and told them to join the fun and everyone bet the don't.
I once again bet don't pass, then randomly rolled the dice and within a few rolls 7 out...everyone at the table won....The next shooter asked for the same dice and did exactly what i did...We won 20 decisions in a row...within a few rolls 7 out....The casino was forced to be on the do side and once we found the bias, there was no way the casino could beat us...we knew the 7 would roll within a few rolls.
Next time you find bad dice...see how the casino likes it being on the do side....and kill them playing the don't
Not likely it happened that way, but possible with just plain old luck. It's a good story though.
ZCore13
With 5 die to chose from, that would give 10 different combinations of 2 dice that could produce non-random results.
Each combination of dice would have a bias toward some number(s), but ONLY when that combination of dice was selected.
This would be virtually impossible to detect, since there is no way of knowing which of the 5 dice you get each time, and each new shooter has a 90% chance of getting a different combination from the previous shooter. Betting boxcars when the dice with a 6 bias are not in play would be a killer.
If 5 of the combinations had a 7 bias, this too would be impossible to take advantage of. Most of the time the 7 out would occur, but 5 of the combinations would be fair to the 7 and would actually favor one of the box numbers, so if you were playing DP on every shooter you would get killed when the non 7 combinations were in play.
With a bias like this, wouldn't the overall edge of the game be tilted a bit more towards the casino?
I'm not saying this is taking place today! I have no reason to believe it does. I am just asking for people to poke holes in my hypothesis. What am I missing?
Quote: RaleighCrapsWhy does a casino put 5 dice on the craps table, mix them all up, and then make the shooter grab only 2?
For the same reason they shuffle cards in plain sight and your opponent in a duel offers you a choice of two identical weapons.
Five identical dice, with their serial numbers recorded by the Boxman, are assigned to a table. No one seriously thinks the dice are anything but identical. Shooter gets to choose so the participants all see the choice and know it done openly. Doesn't matter which two are chosen. You can imagine some nicks and scratches but that is either your irrational hope or your irrational fear. The casino just wants five dice at the table. They examine them during play and whenever there is a Too Tall To Call incident as the dice bounce off the table. Anytime a die is returned to a table it will be examined and don't bother to try to hurry the Box from doing it. He will examine the die and he will make sure its serial number is on the list.
Even with a microscope you couldn't analyze a die and predict it would favor some result. The next expert with a microscope would probably make an opposite prediction anyway. If you don't like the die you can change them during the shooting but of course never retroactively. You don't have to give a reason for requesting one or two new dice and you don't have to give a reason for declining to shoot the dice any longer if you choose to pass the dice half way through your roll.
The casino provides five dice so that there will be no arguments that might result if only two dice were available. And that five available actually continues during the shooting.
Quote: HowardrocknrollBad dice? Here is how i beat the casino with the questionable dice at their own game .
A few months back i was playing in a casino where everyone at table was losing...I mean nobody coud make a point . At the table were all random shooters and right side bettors.
After the last shooter 7'd out, i asked for the same dice and tipped the dealer. I set the dice for a box number and put a bet on the Don't Pass. Then , i proceeded to roll the dice randomly (not setting) and within 2-4 rolls the seven would show as expected.
I tipped the dealer and asked for the same dice again....this time however, i called a bunch of my friends over and told them what was going on the with biased dice, and told them to join the fun and everyone bet the don't.
I once again bet don't pass, then randomly rolled the dice and within a few rolls 7 out...everyone at the table won....The next shooter asked for the same dice and did exactly what i did...We won 20 decisions in a row...within a few rolls 7 out....The casino was forced to be on the do side and once we found the bias, there was no way the casino could beat us...we knew the 7 would roll within a few rolls.
Next time you find bad dice...see how the casino likes it being on the do side....and beat them at their own game by playing the don't side.
Wow, good job. It's amazing how that pro-7 bias doesn't effect the come-out roll. Magic!!!
Also, were all your 7-outs the same combinations? Like, were the all 6-1, or all 5-2, or all 4-3? Because if not that would really be some amazing bias! The 2nd die sees the the first die is a 3, and then it is more likely to come out 4. But if it sees that it's 5, then it's more likely to come up 2. AMAZING!!
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Quote: RaleighCrapsWhy does a casino put 5 dice on the craps table, mix them all up, and then make the shooter grab only 2?
Many shooters ask for the same die when it goes off the table, so speeding up the game is negligible. In fact, I would argue that making every shooter pick 2 of the 5 dice is actually slower, since some people take a long time to decide.
In addition, have you ever tried to get the same 2 dice that the previous shooter was throwing? They won't let you. In fact, they will usually mix them even more, and I have had boxmen put their hands over the whole pile of dice while they mixed them. Why?
My opinion is the casinos do fear that a pair of dice may have a bias to them, albeit unintentional. By forcing you to pick 2 of 5 dice, the casino is ensuring randomness, even if the dice are not completely unbiased.
If every dice was unbalanced in the same way, it would become obvious to the players, and could be exploited with the correct betting play.
However, what if each die in the 5 dice set was unbalanced to different numbers? It would be impossible, as a player, to take advantage of this type of unbalance. Every 2 dice combination would have a skew towards a different number, and by the time you figured it out, a 7 out would have occurred and a 'new' pair of dice have been selected for the next roll.
The question I have for the math experts (most of whom are probably not looking at this thread) follows;
This is purely a mental exercise. I don't want to discuss why a casino would even entertain cheating. I just want to understand, from a mathematical perspective, would it be possible to gain an edge.
Are there any combinations of dice weighting that would end up in the casino's favor. For instance, assume the shooter grabbed two dice that both had an unbalance in favor of the 6. The DP players push on the Come Outs, the PL players lose, so overall the casino is favored. Of course, if that was the known case, the player would just play the 12, which would hurt the casino, even with the high HE of that bet.
However, the player would have to be able to recognize that the 6s were showing up more than reasonable, and start betting the 12, BEFORE the 7 out initiates a new dice combination. Until that recognition occurred, wouldn't the casino have a slight advantage with that particular dice combination?
Given we have 5 dice to choose from (A,B,C,D,E) how many different pair combinations are possible? I think I am correct with 10.
AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE, DE
Assume the "A" is biased toward the 6, and the "B" is biased toward the 1.
When a shooter grabbed this combination, there is going to be a higher number of 7s thrown. The PL players will win more Come Out rolls, but are probably not going to win the point. The DP players are going to lose on the Come Outs, but are likely to win their Don't Point. However, I would think this combination of dice would still be in the casino favor, since there are generally way more PL players than DP players, and the PL odds bets will all lose. Again, once the players become aware of this bias, they would all switch to the DP, but given a new combination of dice is put in play after the 7 out, there would not be a chance to capitalize from this bias.
So, is there a bias that could be applied to each die in a 5 dice set, in a way that would benefit the casino?
Bravo RaleighCraps - awesome post! You will not be able to get very realistic reaction from Wizard's message board with a very good post like this on Craps as even the Wizard has admitted that Dice Influencers and enthusiasts are not welcome here. Most Craps posters found on this message board are theorists only and have no real world experience to speak of including the Wizard.
RaleighCraps, I know you and you play more Craps in 1 month on a live casino craps table than 90% of Wizard's Craps posters cumulatively do in a year.
Quote: RaleighCrapsWhy does a casino put 5 dice on the craps table, mix them all up, and then make the shooter grab only 2?
Many shooters ask for the same die when it goes off the table, so speeding up the game is negligible. In fact, I would argue that making every shooter pick 2 of the 5 dice is actually slower, since some people take a long time to decide.
In addition, have you ever tried to get the same 2 dice that the previous shooter was throwing? They won't let you. In fact, they will usually mix them even more, and I have had boxmen put their hands over the whole pile of dice while they mixed them. Why?
My opinion is the casinos do fear that a pair of dice may have a bias to them, albeit unintentional. By forcing you to pick 2 of 5 dice, the casino is ensuring randomness, even if the dice are not completely unbiased.
If every dice was unbalanced in the same way, it would become obvious to the players, and could be exploited with the correct betting play.
However, what if each die in the 5 dice set was unbalanced to different numbers? It would be impossible, as a player, to take advantage of this type of unbalance. Every 2 dice combination would have a skew towards a different number, and by the time you figured it out, a 7 out would have occurred and a 'new' pair of dice have been selected for the next roll.
The question I have for the math experts (most of whom are probably not looking at this thread) follows;
This is purely a mental exercise. I don't want to discuss why a casino would even entertain cheating. I just want to understand, from a mathematical perspective, would it be possible to gain an edge.
Are there any combinations of dice weighting that would end up in the casino's favor. For instance, assume the shooter grabbed two dice that both had an unbalance in favor of the 6. The DP players push on the Come Outs, the PL players lose, so overall the casino is favored. Of course, if that was the known case, the player would just play the 12, which would hurt the casino, even with the high HE of that bet.
However, the player would have to be able to recognize that the 6s were showing up more than reasonable, and start betting the 12, BEFORE the 7 out initiates a new dice combination. Until that recognition occurred, wouldn't the casino have a slight advantage with that particular dice combination?
Given we have 5 dice to choose from (A,B,C,D,E) how many different pair combinations are possible? I think I am correct with 10.
AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE, DE
Assume the "A" is biased toward the 6, and the "B" is biased toward the 1.
When a shooter grabbed this combination, there is going to be a higher number of 7s thrown. The PL players will win more Come Out rolls, but are probably not going to win the point. The DP players are going to lose on the Come Outs, but are likely to win their Don't Point. However, I would think this combination of dice would still be in the casino favor, since there are generally way more PL players than DP players, and the PL odds bets will all lose. Again, once the players become aware of this bias, they would all switch to the DP, but given a new combination of dice is put in play after the 7 out, there would not be a chance to capitalize from this bias.
So, is there a bias that could be applied to each die in a 5 dice set, in a way that would benefit the casino?
Quote: BohemianBravo RaleighCraps - awesome post! You will not be able to get very realistic reaction from Wizard's message board with a very good post like this on Craps as even the Wizard has admitted that Dice Influencers and enthusiasts are not welcome here. Most Craps posters found on this message board are theorists only and have no real world experience to speak of including the Wizard.
RaleighCraps, I know you and you play more Craps in 1 month on a live casino craps table than 90% of Wizard's Craps posters cumulatively do in a year.
Bohermian, just as all of your posts on Craps, it's all speculation. You live in a fantasy world, whereas most regulars to this forum live in a land of statistical proof and concrete evidence. Dice influencers/controllers are not welcome here because there is no such thing and they just end up making themselves look stupid and causing problems with the regulars that have more intelligence than to believe them. Not one person in the history of the world has ever proven they can influence/control the dice and beat the odds on legal throws.
Why is it that everything else that can be beaten in a casino, BJ when counting, other games when hole carding, promotions, 100+% video poker, loss rebates, etc, etc can all be proven, but what you say does happen, can't?
Your real world experience is flawed. If it's not, put your money where your mouth is? There are dozens of people here that will take you up on any wager that says you can control the dice any better than anyone throwing out of a cup.
ZCore13
Quote: BohemianBravo RaleighCraps - awesome post! You will not be able to get very realistic reaction from Wizard's message board with a very good post like this on Craps as even the Wizard has admitted that Dice Influencers and enthusiasts are not welcome here. Most Craps posters found on this message board are theorists only and have no real world experience to speak of including the Wizard.
RaleighCraps, I know you and you play more Craps in 1 month on a live casino craps table than 90% of Wizard's Craps posters cumulatively do in a year.
I am asking the question here precisely because this is where the math experts and theorists reside. I want, nay I need, the theorists to tell me if my hypothesis could in fact, create a larger house edge for the casino, and if so, how much higher could the house edge be. I am trying to reason through this, but it is quite a bit above my skill set. I should learn how to mess with the dice outcome percentages in WinCraps, and just do it all in sims.
I am not saying any casino is, or would, do this. But, if there is an extreme advantage to be found, then as a player I would have something to look for. However, I suspect that even if I am correct, the increased house edge would be <2% which would not be noticeable beyond whatever normal variance is occurring. It certainly is not going to make it possible to win consistently at this game.
Beyond that, there are way more reasons why the casino would not care to do this.
1. They already have the edge. The math proves they will be winners in the long run. There is no need to cheat.
2. I assume they would stand to lose their license in most every jurisdiction if they were caught. Why risk losing your business, to get an edge on a game you are already going to win on? Of course this assumes gaming regulations call out that the dice must be balanced and fair. If that is not in the gaming regs, then the casino would not have to fear this point.
But what if a casino was not aware of it?
Do we know for a fact that every casino verifies every die is 100% balanced before it gets to the table?
Or does a casino rely on the manufacturer to be providing 100% balanced dice, and never check, or just randomly check a die?
And how accurate is the casino's check? What would the margin of error be?
I would like to play a craps game sometime with only 1 pair of dice. Every shooter gets the same pair. I am quite certain the outcome would not be any different, but it would still be fun to try and find a bias to try and exploit.
A floor supervisor , who hadn't been paying attention to the craps table walked up and asked one of the dealers, "What's going on here" He responded with well, the shooter is having a hot roll....The supervisor yelled in a stern voice..."Change those dice!!!"
Now, Why would he want the dice changed, if they are all the same?
Howard rock n roller
Quote: HowardrocknrollI'm one of the top dice influencers in the country
In fairness, you are tied for first place
Quote: HowardrocknrollOk, I'll jump back into this interesting discussion. A few months ago i was in a casino early in the morning. I was the only one at the craps table and in the middle of long hand... (46 rolls without a 7) Now, many of you might know me and I'm one of the top dice influencers in the country.
A floor supervisor , who hadn't been paying attention to the craps table walked up and asked one of the dealers, "What's going on here" He responded with well, the shooter is having a hot roll....The supervisor yelled in a stern voice..."Change those dice!!!"
Now, Why would he want the dice changed, if they are all the same?
Howard rock n roller
He would do that most likely for one legitimate reason and one not so legitimate reason. The legitimate reason is that all the dice are exactly the same, except if you as the shooter, were able to do something to them or switch them out. He hasn't been watching, so he has no idea. By putting new dice in he can examine those dice if he chooses to and put others in that have not had the opportunity to be messed with
The second reason would just be stupid superstition. If he did not look at the dice that came off the table during your run, he's just stupid. One for not looking at them and two for thinking switching dice makes any difference. Same as blackjack players in a 6 deck shoe that think someone who "takes a dealer" bust card ruins the rest of the shoe for everyone.
Congrats by the way on being able to control the dice equally as well as everyone else and being tied for best controller.
ZCore13
First scenario is that 6-6 is the bar value.
(1) PASS .9 ---- 1.1 DONT : if dice is showing less 1s (0 to .9) then PASS, if more than normal (1.1 upwards) then DONT.
(2) PASS .7 ---- 1.3 DONT
(3) --------------- 1.3 PASS
(4) --------------- 1.3 PASS
(5) DONT .8 ---- 1.2 PASS
(6) DONT .7 ------->
This shows:
(a) If you fiddle 1s 2s or 5s too far then there is an edge (e.g. too many 1s means bet DONT). Of course biassing the 2 probably also means biassing the 5 in the opposite direction, so the effects come in earlier.
(b) If you fiddle less 3s or 4s, then the DONT HE becomes less, but the house still has an edge.
(c) If you fiddle more 6s, then the HE for both sides increase significantly.
Second scenario is that 1-1 is the bar value.
(1) PASS .9 ---- 1.2 DONT
(2 thru 5) as above
(6) --------------- 1.6 DONT
This reduces the sixes fiddle, having no sixes at all still leaves the HE on DONT less than 2%.
I'm guessing if you look at how often 1s and 2s come in, you might detect a bias and hence back PASS with less than normal and DONT with more.
In fact if less 1s are coming in, where the PASS turns (.8962) you were better off placing the 8 (7/6 at 100.76%). Similarly less 2s, PASS turns at .714 where place 10 (at UK odds of 1.9) turns at .871.
With a 1-1 bar table, the defence against the sixes fiddle, is having just .92 makes the place bet on the 6 100.2%.
So in summary go for a table where the bar value is 1-1 and if there was a significant bias then there is a bet you can profit from. Thus it is is the casino's interest to make sure there isn't any bias.
In New Jersey, Yes to both questions, as required by state law.Quote: RaleighCrapsDo we know for a fact that every casino verifies every die is 100% balanced before it gets to the table?
Or does a casino rely on the manufacturer to be providing 100% balanced dice?
No margin of error is allowed.Quote:And how accurate is the casino's check? What would the margin of error be?
Quote: SanchoPanzaIn New Jersey, Yes to both questions, as required by state law.No margin of error is allowed.
All physical measurements have a margin of error.
As an ardent and avid aficionado of Jersey law and all its beautiful ramifications, I present the ultimate word on dice regulation. One ten-thousandth of inch should be enough precision for anybody around here:Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAll physical measurements have a margin of error.
13:69E‐1.15 Dice; physical characteristics
(a) Except as otherwise provided in (b) below, each die used in gaming shall:
1. Be formed in the shape of a perfect cube and of a size no smaller than
0.750 of an inch on each side nor any larger than 0.775 of an inch on each
side;
2. Be transparent and made exclusively of cellulose except for the spots,
name or trade name of the casino licensee and serial number or letters
contained thereon;
3. Have the surface of each of its sides perfectly flat and the spots contained
in each side perfectly flush with the area surrounding them;
4. Have all edges and corners perfectly square and forming perfect 90
degree angles;
5. Have the texture and finish of each side exactly identical to the texture
and finish of all other sides;
6. Have its weight equally distributed throughout the cube and no side of
the cube heavier or lighter than any other side of the cube;
7. Have its six sides bearing white circular spots from one to six respectively
with the diameter of each spot equal to the diameter of every other spot
on the die;
8. Have spots arranged so that the side containing one spot is directly
opposite the side containing six spots, the side containing two spots is
directly opposite the side containing five spots and the side containing
three spots is directly opposite the side containing four spots; each spot
shall be placed on the die by drilling into the surface of the cube and
filling the drilled out portion with a compound which is equal in weight to
the weight of the cellulose drilled out and which forms a permanent bond
with the cellulose cube, and shall extend into the cube exactly the same
distance as every other spot extends into the cube to an accuracy
tolerance of .0004 of an inch; and
9. Have imprinted or impressed thereon the name or trade name of the
casino licensee in which the die is being used.
(b) Each die used in gaming at pai gow, pai gow poker, supreme pai gow or Asia
poker shall comply with the requirements of (a) above except as follows:
1. Each die shall be formed in the shape of a perfect cube and of a size no
smaller than .637 of an inch on each side nor any larger than .643 of an
inch on each side;
2. Instead of the name of the casino, a casino licensee may, with the
approval of the Division, have an identifying mark or logo imprinted or
impressed on each die; and
3. The spots on each die do not have to be equal in diameter.
(c) Each die used in gaming at mini‐dice or automated craps shall comply with the
requirements of (a) or (b) above.
Ignore and disobey them at your peril. The governor will personally mandate a dozen traffic jams for you in the next month. More if you commute to, ahem, New York.
1. Dice controllers assume that they can control the dice
2. Dice controllers lose anyway
3. Dice controllers blame biased dice.
Hmm... maybe assumption 1 is wrong...
I don't have a dog in the fight, but if they could throw, biased dice would set them up. Doesn't seem anyone has proven the dice are conforming and universally the same either or did I miss it?Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think it goes something like this:
1. Dice controllers assume that they can control the dice
2. Dice controllers lose anyway
3. Dice controllers blame biased dice.
Hmm... maybe assumption 1 is wrong...
Quote: onenickelmiraclePerhaps this is why Las Vegas is always accused and not NJ. Isn't the official stance it's ok to be biased as long as nobody knows the bias and the bias is random? I take resentment from my understanding they're not even checked publicly to prove dice are what they're supposed to be. Just seems either lazy or suspicious to me. The PGA checks equipment the pros use to make sure they comply,
onenickelmiracle, excellent point! Besides, Nevada has no laws or regulations as to the specifications of dice.
As for New Jersey, they effectively lost their Gaming Enforcement division so even if they have dice laws on the books, who says they are being enforced?! Or maybe they are run by BridgegGate employees.
Quote:Governor Christie in January 2011 signed into law a bill revamping the New Jersey Casino Control Act and eliminating many of the duplicative functions of the New Jersey Casino Control Commission (“Commission”) and the New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement (“Division”). The Commission still exists but has been recently reduced to three members with limited authority consisting generally of casino licensing matters and appeals from decisions of the Division.
The Division has been revising the regulations and adding details with respect to gaming equipment and has eliminated certain of the requirements for casino licensees to help streamline the regulatory process. The regulatory reforms from January 2011 are still a work in progress and will be some time before the benefits of the reform are known.
http://www.foxrothschild.com/newspubs/newspubsArticle.aspx?id=15032385653
Because it throws the shooter off his game, its not that they really think loaded dice have been switched into the game, they just want whatever he has to be switched back in. The casino does not in fact employ a "Cooler" but there are many suits who think a "cooler" is actually effective. Casinos tend to be very superstitious places.Quote: Howardrocknroll....The supervisor yelled in a stern voice..."Change those dice!!!"
Now, Why would he want the dice changed, if they are all the same?
In some sweat the money joints they will go to great lengths to end a hot roll. In real joints they will just make sure the dice are fair and let the roll continue. Remember the quality of the advice some dealers have give you? Those dealers eventually become suits and still believe that nonsense. Shazam written on a piece of paper, crumbled up and thrown at the feet of the shooter will NOT cause him to Seven Out. One dealer did that as a JOKE and forever after the Suit believed it.
Quote: FleaStiffBecause it throws the shooter off his game, its not that they really think loaded dice have been switched into the game, they just want whatever he has to be switched back in. The casino does not in fact employ a "Cooler" but there are many suits who think a "cooler" is actually effective. Casinos tend to be very superstitious places.
FleaStiff - and you are authority on this "inside every" Casino knowledge how?!
