Why do you love craps?

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January 13th, 2014 at 9:27:47 AM permalink

Quote: darthvader
Since you are here, you are obviously a fan of the game. In your eyes, what makes it the best game for you?

For me,
* Best odds in the casino.
* With the darkside, only game that allows one to "almost" bet with the house.
* Most exciting game in the casino.
And most importantly,
* Only casino game where I have fairly consistently made money.

Not the3 best odds at all.
Almost is not close enough
As exciting as watching paint dry

Winning always makes you a fan of any game. But not true for the 99.99999999999 % of all crap players.

And you will eventually join them too, sad to say !

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

darthvader

darthvader

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January 13th, 2014 at 9:36:00 AM permalink

Boy, do I not want you at my table! :-)))

What do you prefer instead?

7-out, line away, pay the don't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEcwAWi6dk

Buzzard

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January 13th, 2014 at 9:40:25 AM permalink

ANYTHING !

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

FleaStiff

FleaStiff

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January 13th, 2014 at 9:56:41 AM permalink

>In your eyes, what makes it the best game for you?
Heck, I don't know.

>Best odds in the casino
I ain't gonna quibble about "best". Certainly the Odds Bet is indeed the best. NO house edge whatsoever. That is good, but deceptively seducing of over-betting and getting shorn faster than necessary.
Its often a fairly low minimum table game. It can be leisurely or even downright slow if its the morning at a slow paced locals casino.
Its variable: as more people join the table the action increases.
Its a game where you can ignore loudmouths and excessive chatter.
You can generally "pause" without stopping play or taking up a seat in a crowded BJ pit

>With the darkside, only game that allows one to "almost" bet with the house.
Here I will quibble. The house books all bets. That is why the official name is Bank Craps and all those chips are sitting there in front of the Box Man. No side action amongst the players the way there would be in a back alley game of eons ago. Betting the Dark Side is no more 'with the house' than it is 'against the house'. Its simply an option they offer you.

>Most exciting game in the casino.
Not always. I find roulette and Mini-Bacc okay and blackjack can be exciting for the people you meet and the conflicting advice that they give.
>And most importantly, Only casino game where I have fairly consistently made money.
Ah, now there is a good reason indeed.

Its one of the few places you can hold a break-out session from a convention workshop and not offend anyone. The dealers don't mind what people are chatting about and any new players at a formerly nearly empty table are welcomed.

Its the one game where female passersby are more or less constantly trolled for.

If someone arrives three sheets to the wind but relatively quiet, it won't delay the game and may even spice things up a bit.

RaleighCraps

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January 13th, 2014 at 10:02:18 AM permalink

shooting on a table by yourself and making money? - Lots of fun.

shooting on a table with 8 other cheering players? - priceless.

I like the relative low HE of the bets, the illusion that I control my own fate (via throwing the dice), and the social camaraderie of the game.

I used to like the volatility of the game, when it was working in my favor. Being on the wrong end SUCKS

Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

AlanMendelson

AlanMendelson

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January 13th, 2014 at 10:47:11 AM permalink

I like the game because it is the only test of physical skill in the casino.

Poker, video poker, blackjack are tests of mental skills.

Craps gives you a chance to have some physical impact on the game. (That doesn't mean you can -- but it does allow you to try.)

When I play craps I try to have an impact on the dice. I shoot baskets better, but at the craps table I don't get winded from fast breaks and zone or man-to-man defense.

AlanMendelson

AlanMendelson

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January 13th, 2014 at 11:40:33 AM permalink

Quote: RaleighCraps
the illusion that I control my own fate (via throwing the dice),

Illusion? Are you playing at a table where the dealers or other players can interfere with your dice? Does the table move?

DeMango

DeMango

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January 13th, 2014 at 11:52:45 AM permalink

Quote: RaleighCraps
shooting on a table by yourself and making money? - Lots of fun.

shooting on a table with 8 other cheering players? - priceless.

There is quite a price to be paid with your second statement. As I see it, you have 8 a**holes that are gonna cost you money' when it's their turn!

When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.

RaleighCraps

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January 13th, 2014 at 12:46:27 PM permalink

Quote: DeMango
There is quite a price to be paid with your second statement. As I see it, you have 8 a**holes that are gonna cost you money' when it's their turn!

Quote: AlanMendelson
Illusion? Are you playing at a table where the dealers or other players can interfere with your dice? Does the table move?

I guess I can answer both of these at the same time.

DeMango,
Over my years of playing craps, I would say I have had more good rolls than the other players on my table. But, I have made good money off of other shooters at the table too on some occasions. Playing on tables by myself would be boring if I had to do it all the time.

Alan,
Nobody is interfering with my dice, or my throws. I am pretty good about being able to throw the dice into the corner, close to the wall, and having them die there. I don't like my dice bouncing all over the place. So I have decent control over my throw. I did not say there was an illusion of controlling the dice.

I said there was an illusion of controlling my fate. THAT is very much a different thing. I can control where the dice land. I cannot control what numbers show up.

Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

AxiomOfChoice

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January 13th, 2014 at 1:02:11 PM permalink

Quote: RaleighCraps
I said there was an illusion of controlling my fate. THAT is very much a different thing. I can control where the dice land. I cannot control what numbers show up.

If you can find a casino that will pay you based on where the dice land, you will be in business!!

Buzzard

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January 13th, 2014 at 1:03:41 PM permalink

Quote: AxiomOfChoice
If you can find a casino that will pay you based on where the dice land, you will be in business!!

I assume that casino will also let you play with an infinite deck, or are those cards reserved for the math guys.

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

AlanMendelson

AlanMendelson

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January 13th, 2014 at 1:12:52 PM permalink

Quote: RaleighCraps
the illusion that I control my own fate (via throwing the dice),

I think you misunderstand me.

I am not talking about dice control or even dice influencing. The point is the shooter does control his own fate because he throws the dice. The shooter and the shooter alone is responsible for the result of the dice. Yes, the shooter is responsible even if there are alligator bumps and chips on the table and if there is a gust of wind. The shooter is responsible even if the dice bounce high and off the shirt of a player at the end of the table.

The only time the shooter is "relieved" of this control is if a dealer interferes with the path of the dice, or a player swats at the dice intentionaly or the dealer makes an improper call once the dice land, or if they invent motorized tables with obstacles that pop up and bounce the dice after landing.

A random shooter controls his own fate as much as a DC or DI controls his own fate.

It is totally different with blackjack because you have no control over the shuffle. It is totally different with video poker because you have no control over the RNG.

When the "good numbers" hit in craps it is only because of the shooter. When the "bad numbers" hit in craps it is only because of the shooter. (Except when there is intentional interference.)

If more people would realize this, there would be fewer objections to attempts at dice influencing.

AxiomOfChoice

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January 13th, 2014 at 1:14:44 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
I assume that casino will also let you play with an infinite deck, or are those cards reserved for the math guys.

Infinite deck analysis is only done as an estimate, because it's easier, and when using a shoe with a lot of decks it gets pretty close to the right answer (which is often enough, especially if you can bound the error) It also shows what the limit is as more decks are added, which can be useful to know.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with this. Being able to ballpark-estimate numbers is a really useful skill to have when gambling, and assuming infinite decks is a good example of this, since you can often do the math in your head. You don't always have time to run up to your room and get out the computer to figure out the right answer to several decimal places! Nor do I need to -- if I can figure out that I have about a 2% edge, that's enough... I don't really need to know whether my edge is 1.9% or 2.1%. The time I would spend figuring that would would be better spent betting with my about-2% edge.

dicesitter

dicesitter

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January 13th, 2014 at 1:18:16 PM permalink

I said there was an illusion of controlling my fate. THAT is very much a different thing. I can control where the dice land. I cannot control what numbers show up.

If you throw much at all on your home table and if you have any records at all on
the favorite casino tables you play on, you know for certain whether you have
an advantage....

your records should indicate what the results are with the different sets you
use.

There is no mystery to this , you either have an advantage or you dont.

The only systery here is the idea that a random thrower cant have a good roll, they
have lots of them, they even have had the longest roll ever recorded. An advantage
is only important in that if you do have one, you can repeat certain numbers more than
others, so you make more on a short or medium roll than others because you can place
fewer bets and get more hits on them so you leave less money on the table than a person
that has to place more bets to get the same number of hits.

dicesetter

Buzzard

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January 13th, 2014 at 1:19:50 PM permalink

I have a problem with an infinite deck in that I have always been forced to play with a real deck. And my bankroll is not infinite.

Sort of like Optimal results versus Realistic results. I understand math guys need this, like knowing if 6 people have a red hat and 2 a black hat, what color is your hat or something even sillier. I understand their grey cells demand such problem solving, but I could give a shit less what the Optimal HE is. I have to buck the Real one.

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

AxiomOfChoice

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January 13th, 2014 at 1:24:42 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
I have a problem with an infinite deck in that I have always been forced to play with a real deck. And my bankroll is not infinite.

Sort of like Optimal results versus Realistic results. I understand math guys need this, like knowing if 6 people have a red hat and 2 a black hat, what color is your hat or something even sillier. I understand their grey cells demand such problem solving, but I could give a shit less what the Optimal HE is. I have to buck the Real one.

Of course. But the point is, if you can figure out an estimate of the expectation in 1 minute in your head, but the exact edge will take hours to figure out, and you know that the estimate is very close to the correct answer... then it often makes more sense to accept the estimate then to spend the time figuring out the exact answer. Especially if you have to make a decision right away and can't spend the hours figuring out the exact answer.

RaleighCraps

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January 13th, 2014 at 2:21:14 PM permalink

Quote: AlanMendelson
I think you misunderstand me.

I am not talking about dice control or even dice influencing. The point is the shooter does control his own fate because he throws the dice. The shooter and the shooter alone is responsible for the result of the dice. Yes, the shooter is responsible even if there are alligator bumps and chips on the table and if there is a gust of wind. The shooter is responsible even if the dice bounce high and off the shirt of a player at the end of the table.

The only time the shooter is "relieved" of this control is if a dealer interferes with the path of the dice, or a player swats at the dice intentionaly or the dealer makes an improper call once the dice land, or if they invent motorized tables with obstacles that pop up and bounce the dice after landing.

A random shooter controls his own fate as much as a DC or DI controls his own fate.

It is totally different with blackjack because you have no control over the shuffle. It is totally different with video poker because you have no control over the RNG.

When the "good numbers" hit in craps it is only because of the shooter. When the "bad numbers" hit in craps it is only because of the shooter. (Except when there is intentional interference.)

If more people would realize this, there would be fewer objections to attempts at dice influencing.

Alan,
I did misunderstand your intent, and you are correct with your breakdown of my statement.

I needed an implied word in my statement, "the illusion that I can control my favorable fate". That is not what I wrote, but it is what I meant.

Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

RaleighCraps

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January 13th, 2014 at 2:33:47 PM permalink

Quote: dicesitter
I said there was an illusion of controlling my fate. THAT is very much a different thing. I can control where the dice land. I cannot control what numbers show up.

If you throw much at all on your home table and if you have any records at all on
the favorite casino tables you play on, you know for certain whether you have
an advantage....

your records should indicate what the results are with the different sets you
use.

There is no mystery to this , you either have an advantage or you dont.

The only systery here is the idea that a random thrower cant have a good roll, they
have lots of them, they even have had the longest roll ever recorded. An advantage
is only important in that if you do have one, you can repeat certain numbers more than
others, so you make more on a short or medium roll than others because you can place
fewer bets and get more hits on them so you leave less money on the table than a person
that has to place more bets to get the same number of hits.

dicesetter

Hi dicesetter,
We have not posted to each other that I can recall, so I just wanted to acknowledge your post. Dice control has been beat to death here, and I don't wish to ignite a new flame. I will say that I would love to play craps with you some time. I think it could be very profitable.

Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

SanchoPanza

SanchoPanza

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January 13th, 2014 at 2:48:27 PM permalink

Craps is a startlingly apt metaphor for life. You can get a good break or a good run, but the odds get you in the end.
Basically, it is immutable -- you always know where you stand -- and it has an underlying simplicity and elegance.
Even tarting up the game with something like the Fire Bet does not affect it that much.

ontariodealer

ontariodealer

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January 13th, 2014 at 2:53:24 PM permalink

because it has kept me employed for 39 years.

get second you pig

AZDuffman

AZDuffman

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January 13th, 2014 at 3:20:30 PM permalink

I like the "secret society" aspect that so few know how to play the game and even fewer know all 95 or so bets. I like that I can talk in shorthand as if I am a trader and the dealer a NYSE specialist and an outsider may barely know what is going on.

I like that it is a "manly" game in so many ways. You may have to muscle your way in just a touch. You have to learn how to handle yourself. And I like that responsibility is on the player to do just that. Ignore your payoff and it becomes a bet for the dealer. Complain and you are told, "if it lays it plays." No hand-holding.

And I like that because of all this players and dealers alike can walk with a certain swagger. When I teach people how to play they often look in amazement. How can one person handle all of this? I know it is just practice, but I know it still is not easy.

That is why I like it.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

100xOdds

100xOdds

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January 13th, 2014 at 3:35:03 PM permalink

see my sig :)

as to why:
I like games w/low HE.

unfortunately, blackjack is too mechanical. just memorize the strategy sheet.
baccarat is even worse. you have no options. the dealer does everything for you. yawn. (altho this is great if your drunk)

no 99%+ VP at my local casino.

that leaves craps. and I love coming up w/pressing strategies for the game. (right or dark)

Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)

Buzzard

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January 13th, 2014 at 4:49:46 PM permalink

Don't take my prior remarks to mean i don't have great respect for math guys. If I did not, I would never get on an airplane. I mean how the hell do airplane stay up ?

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

AxiomOfChoice

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January 13th, 2014 at 5:02:21 PM permalink

Quote: Buzzard
Don't take my prior remarks to mean i don't have great respect for math guys. If I did not, I would never get on an airplane. I mean how the hell do airplane stay up ?

I know :) I'm just trying to explain why infinite-deck analysis (or other shortcuts) can be useful at times. Sometimes I just want a quick estimate! I know that it's not perfect, but sometimes close is good enough.

It's just like if you are trying to figure out how much gas for a trip will cost you. You might look at the distance and gas mileage and figure that it's about $50. Now this isn't exact... it might end up costing you $48 or $52, but it's still a useful estimate if you are trying to decide whether the trip is worthwhile.

Buzzard

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January 13th, 2014 at 5:06:21 PM permalink

" unfortunately, blackjack is too mechanical."

At least you get to sit down at BJ and don't have to be a leaning post for the loud mouth drunk that crap tables seem to attract. No, not you , Mickey. No AP here unless you want to risk a felony.

Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet

befamous7

befamous7

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January 13th, 2014 at 5:29:31 PM permalink

Like you I enjoy craps because it offers the best odds in the casino and it's the most exciting game for me personally. There's something about hitting your point number and having a table full of players cheer. I've never experienced this feeling at any other game.

PBguy

PBguy

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January 14th, 2014 at 3:13:51 AM permalink

I love the social aspect of the game particularly when the table is hot. Craps players tend to be more social than other gamblers from my experience. Definitely the most exciting game when the table is hot. I also like the illusion of control.

CrapsGenious

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January 14th, 2014 at 3:21:36 AM permalink

Quote: PBguy
I love the social aspect of the game particularly when the table is hot. Craps players tend to be more social than other gamblers from my experience. Definitely the most exciting game when the table is hot. I also like the illusion of control.

I agree. Social aspect plays a big "role" at craps, but amazing how people turn against you in a whim when bad roll is outcome.

8 more years till retirement.

djatc

djatc

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January 14th, 2014 at 4:35:36 AM permalink

It's an exciting way to play a casino game, since you are with a bunch of people, get to make all kinds of bets, and get to "influence" the outcome directly. By influence I just mean throwing dice. It's all random anyway, but it beats a dealer spinning a roulette ball, or them dealing BJ/bac.

Since I am a darkside bettor I like to play on tables where everyone is cordial in a win or lose. Most seasoned craps players are understanding of darkside bettors, as we are not taking their money, but the casinos money in a different way. I've had people tell me good luck when I lay the 4 when they are on the point, and I've told them good luck as well. We might not want the same result, except only on the comeout roll, but it's fun to see the results based on 2 dice being thrown against the back wall.

"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous

FleaStiff

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January 14th, 2014 at 5:47:51 AM permalink

>I like the "secret society" aspect that so few know how to play the game and even fewer know all 95 or so bets.
That is the current situation. Used to be you played Poker on ships and trains, but you played craps anywhere else and need only approach any boot black or bar man in town and ask if he has seen Skinny Duggan to get steered to a game.

>I like that it is a "manly" game in so many ways.
> You may have to muscle your way in just a touch.
And deal with being muscled just a touch.
> You have to learn how to handle yourself.
Socially as well as chip-wise. There is a measure of disrepute that goes with the game.
> And I like that responsibility is on the player to do just that.
> Ignore your payoff and it becomes a bet for the dealer.
> Complain and you are told, "if it lays it plays." No hand-holding.
No. Dealer stacks it all up and pays you off but expects a tip.

>And I like that because of all this players and dealers alike can walk with a certain swagger.
Yes, some people never notice that the confusing layout has mirrored ends... they think the players learned "that whole crazy fast moving table".

On a Personal Note... weren't you a craps trainee who got washed out of training at some point in time. Or am I confusing you with someone else?

PhattyD

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January 14th, 2014 at 8:04:44 AM permalink

I love craps for a lot of the same reasons already mentioned. When you walk into any casino, where is all the hootin' n hollerin'? Yep, that's where I want to be. Then when you get to the table, you get to push yourself through the gawkers that don't understand the game. You get to say excuse me, I'm going to play here, and you take your place as "one who knows". I'm pretty social and will teach some basics to any onlookers, can always use another high five on a win! Although, I've never been more angry at someone in a casino then at a craps table. Some guy behind me would always be saying, "Gonna be a seven, I just know it. It's gonna be a seven." I tried to ignore him, but after the 3rd missed point in a row, and him all, "Yep, I knew it. Seven. Yep." I lost it. I turned around and told him to shut his damn mouth or put some money on the table. He walked away and of course the guys at my end of the table thanked me. I had to say what we were all thinking.

Every man dies. Not every man really lives.

AxiomOfChoice

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January 14th, 2014 at 10:52:10 AM permalink

Why do so many people think that craps offers the best odds in the casino? You should really take the quiz on the wizard's page...

Buzzard