What constitutes AP Craps play?

Quote: Zcore13

Looks like the old Ahigh is back. Everyone is wrong and you are right again.

Not everyone, and not always, but wrong is wrong is wrong. It is a characteristic of this forum where people speak outside of their domain of knowledge, and you are a perfect example of that Bucky Boy.

Quote: Ahigh

Not everyone, and not always, but wrong is wrong is wrong. It is a characteristic of this forum where people speak outside of their domain of knowledge, and you are a perfect example of that Bucky Boy.

You are right again, as always life in a spiraling tailspin kid.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

You are right again, as always life in a spiraling tailspin kid.

Schadenfreude much? Here's the problem with your taking joy in my misfortune: I don't have any ATM, Bucky Boy. Taking joy in the downfall of others is likely a characteristic of someone in your line of work watching your patrons empty their pockets to your paycheck. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail I guess.

Let me know when you get a craps table over there at Bucky's Palace.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I have a question for you thecesspit: Are you one of those folks who believes that if you play 9/6 jacks or better video poker over a lifetime that you will have a lifetime return of 99.54% ??

No, I won't. I will have somewhere around 99.54%, modified by the variance of the machine, and the size of that variance depends on how many hands I play in that 'lifetime'. Plus, I will probably make mistakes.

It's not a question of 'belief' though, really is it?

Quote: Ahigh

Also, I'm curious who else thinks that double-felting is not done specifically to create more randomness in the way that the dice bounce? Anyone? It could be just laziness on part of the person doing the work; I will admit that. But who here thinks that double-felting has no effect on a skilled player's ability to get more favorable outcomes on the table.

If you don't believe in DI, you are going to have to believe that it's just laziness, because the fact that some tables get double felted is evidence that you're wrong about DI being possible if it's not done from laziness alone. Certainly not conclusive evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

I think most reasonable folks know that under certain conditions, AP craps play is possible, and each casino is trying to appear to be exploitable without being exploitable. There are lots of details to this IMO. If there are no exploitable tables anywhere in Vegas, they still want them to all APPEAR exploitable.

They definitely have double felted tables in Laughlin. I didn't know it was a secret.

I'm guessing there are several reasons why that is so. I think laziness is one part. The extra labor to remove the old one, especially if there were any adhesives used in laying the original.

That little table I met you at IYR, has changed the felt a minimum of 3 times this year. The last time they removed the ats bet, they said it killed them. Who knows, it's kinda hard to believe anything a dealer tells you.

Also, the laser sharpened dice will cut right through the cloth if there isn't anything under it. I saw one just eaten in about a month. So that's part of the reason they have the backing on the 12oz. microfiber, longevity. Both scenarios do cause the dice to leave the table more often. On those super bouncy tables especially when shooter's are getting ready to color up, I hope they will join me by making sure to bounce at least one off the table in solidarity? Also, if you have a surly dealer. It's kinda fun, and don't forget to call out same di requested.

I've only seen two felts applied, but what they have just done in Laughlin when the cloth's get thick they just change out the tables, which is prevalent around town there. I had no idea why they changed them, the others were fine. Maybe if the old felts were applied with adhesive might be part of it.

And yes, the double felt makes it sucky action.

Quote: Zcore13

liquidating a coupon (translation - You used a coupon just like everyone else.)
grinding - (translation - you had a large bankroll that you were willing to risk to place small bets and win a small amount)
IE - (translation - What I just said is either not believable or doesn't make much sense or I don't think you can understand my intelligence so I'm going to describe it again at your level)

You absolutely are not the only person who works for a casino that I look down upon in terms of their lack of understanding of things such as this.

You fail to understand the qualification of a liquidation? Let me give you a concrete example: $18 on red, $18 on black, and $1 on zero with free play credits on Bally's video roulette (single zero). You get 36 for 37 each and every time. It's not using a coupon or player points like anybody else. It's turning the points into a specific amount of money without gambling even an ounce. That's why it's called "liquidation."

If it weren't free play, it would be called "giving money to the casino." That's because you always end up with less than you started with in terms of play credits. Always.

I find it humorous that you don't understand.

I have liquidated multiple thousands of dollars of player points at the Silverton alone. They recently stopped allowing this and I can no longer do it, which is why I now play video poker there (the only reason why).

Grinding is betting very small amounts for lots and lots of events. It's not martingale or Fibonacci as you imply. There is some hedging in the way that I grind, but don't pretend you know how I bet when I say that I am grinding.

You may be a smart guy, but your posts make you look like someone who thinks that they are smarter than they really are because you happen to work at a casino. You should stop posting this nonsense that just makes you look like you enjoy talking about things where you clearly lack knowledge. It doesn't hurt me for you to do this, it just makes you look bad. Go ahead and make out to be the bad guy if you want, but I don't think anybody is going to agree that liquidation of coupons is no different than betting a coupon. Certainty matters. At the Palms they disallow liquidation of coupons. If you were right (which you're not) they would allow liquidation. But they don't.

Failure to understand followed by argument from ignorance. Classy stuff, ye who works for the casino.

Quote: Ahigh

There is absolutely no question that a double-felted table is avoided by several types of players as well. I think I could easily prove that point with statistics if it were more debatable, but I think it's pretty obvious.

A non sequitur that appears to be also a contradiction in terms.

Quote: Ahigh

I also think that the casino already knows this as do dealers who have had their tables transitioned from single to double felt. You also chase dice a lot more. But the customers who are okay with a 100% random game and don't believe in dice control are not as annoyed by just having the game slowed down as customers who want a chance to try to beat the house with a table that seems more exploitable

Noted: The continuing inability or unwillingness to answer the simple question of how many felt replacements have you personally witnessed live and how many of those were double or more felts.

SanchoPanza

It's a standard practice in most casinos around Vegas to use more then one felt on a table. Unlike you, I see it all the time, when and if you ever do come to Vegas, just ask any dealer or boxman if they use more then one felt on the table you are playing on, they will be happy to tell you if they do. It's not a big secret, about what they are doing. I see them replacing felts all the time, in many of different casinos I play in.

There are even some casinos that made their tables like trampolines, and it's costing them money. Casinos make their money off rolls per hour, if the dice are not on the table, they are not making money, it just bad casino management, all they need to do is look at the slow-motion videos of the dice hitting the table, and they could see that what they are doing is costing them money!

This stems from all the fiction that has been written about DI's and their ability to take millions off the craps table, way to funny if you ask me!

There are so many posters on the different boards that are experts on everything that happens here in Vegas and around the country, that never even walk into a casino. If you think you are an expert on what the casinos do here, by coming here once a year, I feel for you!

Quote:

SanchoPanza
Noted: The continuing inability or unwillingness to answer the simple question of how many felt replacements have you personally witnessed live and how many of those were double or more felts.

It doesn't matter how many felts aHigh has seen being replaced, there are others on this board that is saying the same thing that he told you.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I was at Caesars almost a year ago when new felts were installed on the tables. The new felts were put on top of the old felts. I asked the carpenter (I think that's what he was) who was in charge and he told me "that's how I always do it." Frankly, that came as a surprise to me because about five years ago when they were changing the felts, my son and I brought one of the layouts home. (I asked if I could take one of the old felts, but no, they were left on the tables.)

I even have a photo of the new layout going on top of an old layout on my website: http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html The photo is with the article dated November 16, 2012.

Quote: SanchoPanza

So after, say, 10 or 20 years a table will have three, four, five, six or more felts? I don't think so.

As I originally wrote I was surprised that they installed one layout on top of another, and in the past when I was at Caesars and they changed layouts the old one would come off -- which is how we got to take one home.

It's possible that someone other than the carpenter decided to leave the layout on there for extra bounce.

My understanding has been that most layouts are installed right over the base, with some casinos putting a layer of newspaper under the layout for a little bounce.

I sometimes play at the Gold Strike in Jean (love that table) which I am sure is only the layout on top of the base because you can hear the dice "clank" when they bounce.

Honestly it doesn't matter how each casino installs the layouts. I think the points to remember are these:

1. No two tables are the same
2. Tables will have different bounce and roll characteristics

for those of you who attempt DI, Sharpshooter even addressed this in his book and suggested that shooters use the come out roll to determine the bounce. It also doesn't hurt to see what happened with previous shooters because if you see an easy throw bouncing all over the place you know you are facing a bouncey table.

You just have to use common sense if you are going to attempt to influence the dice. I've played on bouncey tables before and found myself bouncing the dice off the table, so I had to adjust my roll.

If you really want to try DI then obviously you have to find a table that suits the conditions that are best for you. Again this is why I love Gold Strike. And it's a $3 table (only double odds, though) but heck of a relaxing place to play with friendly dealers.

Quote: AlanMendelson

for those of you who attempt DI, Sharpshooter even addressed this in his book and suggested that shooters use the come out roll to determine the bounce. It also doesn't hurt to see what happened with previous shooters because if you see an easy throw bouncing all over the place you know you are facing a bouncey table.

You just have to use common sense if you are going to attempt to influence the dice. I've played on bouncey tables before and found myself bouncing the dice off the table, so I had to adjust my roll.

I've been known to make one shot on some of the tables around Vegas, and walk away after they were chasing the dice, that went off the table. Some of the tables in the sweat joints are just hike a trampoline, I don't see how the casino is making money, when they spend all their time chasing the dice!