'No Roll' Called on 7 Out - Ever Seen this before?

Today I was playing a continuous come style of system and as luck would have it, I got a really hot shooter who was making me a bunch of money. He made the point on the 4, 6 and 8. In fact he made the point multiple times on each of these numbers, also winning a bunch of my come bets for me.

Anyway, the point was 4 (for at least the 3rd or 4th time) and he rolled. One of the dice landed flat showing a 3. The other die landed cocked against one of the base dealer's stacks of chips with the 4 showing out. The die wasn't on a 45 degree angle or anything and didn't appear to be halfway between numbers. Nobody disputed it and just about every patron at the table expected them to call it a seven out, however the boxman called the Floor Supervisor over who ruled it a 'No Roll'!

On the very next roll, the shooter rolled a hard 4 and made his point! Talk about a second lease on life. I believe that the shooter made 1 or 2 more points before sevening out for real (dice landed completely flat with 6-1 showing. No disputing it).

I ended up making at least $500 off of this shooter, just playing continuous come with 5x odds.

There were no Don't players at the table, but I have to think that if there was one and the Floor ruled 'No Roll' on what clearly looked like a seven-out, they would be fuming mad. Especially since the point was made on the very next roll.

Have you guys ever seen this scenario happen? Typically I only see a No Roll called when the dice leave the table. Even when the dice don't hit the back wall, the roll generally always stands (although the shooter is typically warned that he must hit the back wall). I've seen the dice land on chips or against chips countless times and land all kinds of different ways other than flat and never seen a No Roll called. Until tonight that is.

You can say this was a Public Relations move by the casino. When a die lands leaning against a chip, etc., that die's face is to be consider and called by how it would land and lie if the obstacle were not present. These people want you back!

I've heard that the object can be chips that are bets on the layout but not dealer's stacks or boxman's stacks or in the dice bowl.

Quote: etr102

The other die landed cocked against one of the base dealer's stacks of chicks with the 4 showing out.

Is this some type of Freudian slip or something? lol

I've heard stories of this happening where there were players betting on both sides. All the don'ts were paid as though a 7 was rolled and everything else remained as a no-roll.

I play craps a lot and I only remember one time having a no roll call. One die bounced off the wall and landed between 2 place bets. The die was resting straight up on the edge and they called it a no roll. Off the table, on the bank or in the bowl are always a no roll. The only other controversial call is when a die goes off a player. If the player doesn't move by swiping or hitting the die the roll stands. If a player swings at the die they call no roll, even when both end up on the table.

Quote: NJchief

Off the table, on the bank or in the bowl are always a no roll. The only other controversial call is when a die goes off a player. If the player doesn't move by swiping or hitting the die the roll stands. If a player swings at the die they call no roll, even when both end up on the table.

Also considered is did the die bounce off the player or adhere to the player briefly, lose momentum and fall. So a girl wearing a stick, fuzzy sweater is thought to have slowed the die down, its a no roll. If it merely bounced off the sweater, its good.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Quote: etr102

The other die landed cocked against one of the base dealer's stacks of chicks with the 4 showing out.

Is this some type of Freudian slip or something? lol

hahahahah oops. I've corrected it.

Quote: Paigowdan

You can say this was a Public Relations move by the casino. When a die lands leaning against a chip, etc., that die's face is to be consider and called by how it would land and lie if the obstacle were not present. These people want you back!

Given other happenings last night, this is likely the correct answer.

Last night, before playing, my wife and I were walking around the pit deciding which table we were going to play on based on how hot the table seemed. (Yeah, I know there's scientifically no such thing as a hot or cold table, but we are a bit superstitious. What can I say?). Anyway, a Floor Supervisor thought we were observing the tables because we were trying to learn the game and offered to teach us. Obviously we already know the rules as we play quite often.

Anyway, after we played and as we were leaving, we saw another floor supervisor at one of the closed tables teaching people how to play.

Maybe they are just trying hard to recruit craps players for some reason. And working hard to maintain existing players (as evidenced by my original story in this thread.

Quote: FleaStiff

I've heard that the object can be chips that are bets on the layout but not dealer's stacks or boxman's stacks or in the dice bowl.

Interesting. Well, it was definitely a dealer's stack and not chips that were in play. Was a typical stack of about 20 $5 chips and the corner of the die must have caught the crack between chips.

When everyone at the table was surprised that they called a No Roll, I think the reasoning they gave was that supposedly if it's touching 2 or more chips they can call a no roll? I've never heard of this rule.

Either way, the table was full of pass line players, everybody was grateful.

Quote: etr102

....Maybe they are just trying hard to recruit craps players for some reason. And working hard to maintain existing players (as evidenced by my original story in this thread.

Yes.
Most "modern gamblers-to-be" just learn to play the easy games and skip dice, and aren't willing to invest in the educational overhead of getting into craps. Only us geezers seem to be playing it. A fading demographic the crap player. Same with the Race book. I've seen retired people walk into the Race book and get called "Kid."

A crying shame, truly. No game has the juice of craps.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Quote: etr102

The other die landed cocked against one of the base dealer's stacks of chicks with the 4 showing out.

Is this some type of Freudian slip or something? lol

[etr102]:hahahahah oops. I've corrected it.

--------------

This is a Freudian Typo - same dynamic. Rare in handwriting, but common in typing and speech. Typing is the speech of the 21st century.

Quote:

I think the reasoning they gave was that supposedly if it's touching 2 or more chips they can call a no roll?.

I think that's supposed to be two STACKS...

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes.
Most "modern gamblers-to-be" just learn to play the easy games and skip dice, and aren't willing to invest in the educational overhead of getting into craps. Only us geezers seem to be playing it. A fading demographic the crap player. Same with the Race book. I've seen retired people walk into the Race book and get called "Kid."

A crying shame, truly. No game has the juice of craps.

I'm surprised that the Casino would want to recruit craps players. One would think that they would want the game to die. The overhead in staffing, extra surveillance, opportunity cost (in terms of square footage occupied), and low house edge would make a craps table not nearly as profitable as a bank of themed penny video slots.

Of course if somebody is making stupid bets at the craps table, the house edge is likely even worse than those penny slots. I'd imagine most casinos would do away with table games completely if they could get away with it without pissing off their loyal customer base. If that loyal customer base stops playing craps (due to shifting demographics) well then I suppose it's Win-Win for the Casino.

I agree with you though, there is no game quite like craps. Sure, Blackjack is a better game to play mathematically speaking but it's just boring when compared to an exciting craps table.

Quote: etr102

I'm surprised that the Casino would want to recruit craps players. One would think that they would want the game to die. The overhead in staffing, extra surveillance, opportunity cost (in terms of square footage occupied), and low house edge would make a craps table not nearly as profitable as a bank of themed penny video slots.

Those are good points, but overall the casino would lose out because there's a significant number of craps players out there (who lose a lot of money) who would simply stop going to a casino rather than migrate over to slots or another game.

Quote: etr102

I'm surprised that the Casino would want to recruit craps players. One would think that they would want the game to die.

The opposite: Pit management wants table games patronage to grow, and for all table types.

Years ago while playing at the Four Queens, we were in the middle of a hand, and the wrong person picked up the dice and shot them. (He had been the previous shooter, and had just forgotten the dice had moved.)

As the dice were in the air, several players noticed what had happened, and yelled out, "Wrong shooter!" The dice landed on 7. Immediately our dealer (who had seemed like a pretty nice guy up to that point) started collecting the wagers on the layout. "It doesn't matter who shot them," he said. "The dice determine the roll."

There was a huge outcry from the players. The pit came over, assessed the situation, and ruled that it was a no-roll. (Our dealer hadn't picked up too many bets, so he was able to replace them correctly.)

Of course that's the right call. Yeah, it's basically a free roll for the players (if some other number had hit, the roll probably would have stood), but it's just good PR. And the opposite decision would have been terrible PR.

Quote: wudged

I've heard stories of this happening where there were players betting on both sides. All the don'ts were paid as though a 7 was rolled and everything else remained as a no-roll.

Wow. Now that would be something to see.

Quote: Paigowdan

The opposite: Pit management wants table games patronage to grow, and for all table types.

Why is that? Just looking out for their own best interests (ie job security) rather than the overall bottom line of the Casino?

Quote: YouCanBetOnThat

Wow. Now that would be something to see.

I agree. I don't want to call BS or anything, but making the dice outcome count for some players but not others seems far fetched to me. Wouldn't this be in violation of some kind of gaming board law? Either the roll counts or it doesn't. I just couldn't imagine a scenario where it only counts for some people but not others.

Quote: etr102

I agree. I don't want to call BS or anything, but making the dice outcome count for some players but not others seems far fetched to me. Wouldn't this be in violation of some kind of gaming board law?

Which law would that be?

Granted, something like that is very rare, but I don't see anything far-fetched about it. The Don't players were allowed to win a few bucks, and the Pass Line players were allowed to keep their money a little bit longer. (I observed a similar thing one time) I can almost guarantee that most of the PL players lost that money right back though.

I think, from the casino's POV, craps is all about the show. There is no more joyous and raucous sound that carries through the whole place, or heart-quickening sight, than a craps table 3 deep with a shooter on a hot roll. It's point of sale marketing at its finest. No other game they have moves as fast with that much group interaction or adds more to the atmosphere of winning throughout the room. It's a visceral shot right to the endorphins of everybody around it, lures people into the area, or into staying just a bit longer, because there's that magic in the air. Same type of subliminal cues as slots retaining the sound of manual bells ringing and the sounds of coins dropping into the tray long into the electronic age and TITO cashes. And, of course, there is the house edge; you're paying them (in most cases) to help them make the place more exciting for everyone. I would think a smart marketing department would DEMAND a casino retain at least one craps game in every house with liberal odds to attract shooters, even if they could make more on turning that floor space into a bank of slots.

Quote: etr102

I agree. I don't want to call BS or anything, but making the dice outcome count for some players but not others seems far fetched to me. Wouldn't this be in violation of some kind of gaming board law? Either the roll counts or it doesn't. I just couldn't imagine a scenario where it only counts for some people but not others.

I was the only dark sider at the table. There were about 8 or 9 other players. I was standing in the corner next to the dealer. The dice were being thrown from the other end of the table. One of the die landed in front of me against a stack of dealers chips. It was perfectly balanced. Some players were banging on the table, hoping it would fall in their favor. The call was "7 out". Before the dice were returned to the dealer, all of the other players were screaming and yelling that it should be an "eight". They called over the pit boss and he called "no roll". All the other players were happy with the call except me. I had money on the Don't Pass. I said to the pit boss "you know that was a 7 out". He said "you're right". He told the dealer to pay me for the Don't Pass bet. I said thanks to the pit boss, picked up my chips and left the table. I never did find out if the shooter made his point or 7ed out.

Quote: etr102

I agree. I don't want to call BS or anything, but making the dice outcome count for some players but not others seems far fetched to me. Wouldn't this be in violation of some kind of gaming board law? Either the roll counts or it doesn't. I just couldn't imagine a scenario where it only counts for some people but not others.

I have been on a table where the same type of outcome occurred. The dice got into the place bets, and was on edge in such a way that it was really hard to make the right call (it was basically balanced equally between two bets). The stick called 7 out, and all of the players on that end of the table started complaining. The pit finally came over, and ruled against the 7 out, and the number was the point. This made most of the players very happy, save for the one DP player, who now started to complain.
So the pit said, you called 7 out, so pay the DP. Then the pit said, I called the point, so pay the pass line. This was at the Beau Rivage.

Heard same, years back. As heard-say, there are some things on the felt that cannot be touched, such as equipment and house chips. If the die(ce) come to rest touching house equipment/chips it should be a dead roll- declared no roll. Can anyone support this by regulation, etc.?

I had something similar once. The stick called 'no roll' when it was pretty clear it should have been a 7-out. Afterwords I heard the box say to the stick quietly that he should have called a 7.

Had just the opposite... Dice tumbled limply out of the shooters hand, "slipped", not even close to the middle of the table, 4-3, and of course they accepted the roll. Killed a nice hot streak

Quote: Smokatoke

Had just the opposite... Dice tumbled limply out of the shooters hand, "slipped", not even close to the middle of the table, 4-3, and of course they accepted the roll. Killed a nice hot streak

Forward motion of the dice by the shooter is all that's needed to be considered a roll.

Quote: allinriverking

Forward motion of the dice by the shooter is all that's needed to be considered a roll.

The stick/box can still call "No roll" even if there is (technically) forward motion. I've seen it happen plenty of times in Vegas.

Quote: Smokatoke

Had just the opposite... Dice tumbled limply out of the shooters hand, "slipped", not even close to the middle of the table, 4-3, and of course they accepted the roll. Killed a nice hot streak

I hate that kind of stuff, of course it would be 'no roll' if it was not a 7. There seems little doubt this sort of manipulation goes on in order to get a little more edge to the house.

Methinks the stickman and boxman screwed the table for whatever reason. Unless one of the dies goes off the game, or lands and stops on either the house bankroll or lands in the dice bowl, it is considered a legal roll. If one die is "cocked" due to the dealers working stacks, the roll is determined by "the natural fall of the die", meaning what the die would fall on if the obstruction wasn't there. If a die stops on top of either the "puck" or a players bet, it is called whatever number is facing up. There are times when "No Roll" might be called, generally when a shooter has been told several times to bounce 'em off the far end, but if the stickman DOES decide to call no roll, he or the base dealers should snatch up one die before it stops, thereby fouling the roll.

Semi-off topic, the Santa Ana Star in Bernalillo, New Mexico used to run a no seven promotion. From time to time, during a particularly hot roll, the table games manager would come down to the table to observe. And once in awhile, when the shooter sevened out, he would call it a "no roll," tell the dealers to pay the Don't players as if the seven had rolled, but to leave the right side players bets up and let the game continue. It was a hell of a promotion.

This is the casino that originated the "free buy bets" on the four and ten in the Albuquerque market, and also pays triple on both the two and twelve in the Field, essentially making it a zero vig bet. And yeah, I'm sure they're STILL making plenty of money on the game.

Quote: heavy

Semi-off topic, the Santa Ana Star in Bernalillo, New Mexico used to run a no seven promotion. From time to time, during a particularly hot roll, the table games manager would come down to the table to observe. And once in awhile, when the shooter sevened out, he would call it a "no roll," tell the dealers to pay the Don't players as if the seven had rolled, but to leave the right side players bets up and let the game continue. It was a hell of a promotion.

This is the casino that originated the "free buy bets" on the four and ten in the Albuquerque market, and also pays triple on both the two and twelve in the Field, essentially making it a zero vig bet. And yeah, I'm sure they're STILL making plenty of money on the game.

Genius.