mickeycrimm
Joined: Jul 13, 2013
• Posts: 2299
August 20th, 2013 at 6:29:35 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It seems that versions of this game pop up at G2E every few years, often called "cee-lo" or some variant. I've done several math reports for clients on different versions. One fellow even claimed to have a patent on it, but cee-lo actually has its roots in an ancient Chinese dice game named "sz' 'ng luk" (literally, "four, five, six," which is where the English name came from).
http://gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/Archives/Culin/Dice1893/szngluk.html

Yes, MathExtremist, this is the game we played in the bars around Alaska. I couldn't tell you how many times I made a bunch of money on the pool table but left the bar flat ass broke because of four-five-six. Of, course I didn't know anything about the math in those days. We played ring game style. When we started a game we would all roll the dice to determine the first banker. Whoever rolled the most points got to be the first banker. The banker would then throw an amount of money on the bar. The first fader could take all or part of the bet. If he didn't take all of the bet then the second fader could take all or part of what was left. And so on.

The banker would take the cup and roll the dice. If he rolled a four-five-six, three of a kind, or a pair and the odd die is a six, then he automatically won. If he rolled a one-two-three, or a pair and the odd die is a one, then he automatically lost. If he rolled a pair and the odd die is a two, three, four, or five, then that was his point. Let's say he made a four. The dice would then go to the first fader. The fader could win by rolling a four-five-six, a three of a kind, or a pair with the odd die being either a five or a six. If he rolled a pair and a four then it was a push. If he rolled a one-two-three, or a pair and the odd die is a one, two or three, then he lost. Then the next fader would roll to try and beat the four. And so on.

The first player to roll a three of a kind got to be the next banker. If you were the banker, and you were winning, you couldn't remove any of the money from the bank, but you had the option of passing the dice before the next come out roll.

Back then we just thought the game was all luck. But I now know something about the math. It looks to me like the banker has the advantage because he gets to roll first and has six more combinations (three of a kind) to automatically win than to automatically lose. Since there are only 108 action rolls that should be about a 5.5% advantage.

If I were to play the game today I think my strategy would be something like only making a nominal bet like \$10 when I'm the fader. The object would be to fade with low betting amounts until I become the banker. Then when I get the bank throwing down something like \$500 down on the bar. Since you can't remove any money from the bank while you are winning I think I would have to pass the dice after doubling or tripling up, then go back to being a \$10 fader, trying to win the bank back again. Does that sound reasonable to you?
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
• Posts: 7895
August 22nd, 2013 at 8:02:00 AM permalink
Quote: NewToCraps

If heads I win, tails you lose and lands on an edge we tie (push?)

You can't the "tie" part on the t-shirt.
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
• Posts: 1728
August 22nd, 2013 at 12:52:27 PM permalink
Quote: Venthus

That definition made a specific case come to mind-- is passing (as opposed to failing) a 1-for-1 a win or a push?

I'd be more specific and say that a push is a registered bet that is resolved without money (or currency equivalent) changing hands.

In something like VP, because you paid in advance, a 1-for-1 is a win, despite the end result being the same. A push would be... nonexistent, I guess? Similarly, you can win with a net less on anything that has a fractional payback.

Look at the case of Video Poker JoB. Money DOES change hands... You ---> Machine ---> You.. In this case one has a fancy tie called 1 FOR 1. Its the exact same in Blackjack with a tie at say 19-19. You ---> Table ---> You, it just that You decide to keep the bet there for the next hand. A transaction has occured. In Video Poker either A.) the coins are returned, or B.) held by the machine until You release them (notwithstanding TITO).

Again, the major difference between a push and No Action is the viability of the bet placed- live or dead.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
• Posts: 1728
August 22nd, 2013 at 1:06:48 PM permalink
Sorry for Doub;e-Up, another point was made, and my response follows.

Slot machines are the Devil's definition of a win. Yes, you won 45 Credits, you also lost 105. Its still a loss, just not a full loss. And it certainly is not a win for profit upon the original wager. I equate this to The Unemployment % announced by the gummint. It does not include those that have abandoned all hope, or never collect Unemployment comp. The object is to paint a positive spin on an otherwise negative outcome (dare we EVER have a negative IMAGE or PERCEPTION !, and damn the tangible evidence !)
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
NewToCraps
Joined: Jun 16, 2013
• Posts: 210
August 23rd, 2013 at 4:40:37 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

You can't the "tie" part on the t-shirt.

Maybe put on the inside ?
(I've only seen a tie a few times, and it makes sense that you don't usually see the inside of a tee shirt, also)
Learned Craps in 2013 .... Developed and have a PATENT on Craps "Back On Bet" side bet ... Working on Craps game variations hope to have patents in 2018 - Second Chance Craps and Sub-Crap-tion ... A completely new dice game idea is next - D.. Dice D......