New shooter going to Vegas first time

I know there are probably a million like me who have never been to Vegas and played craps, so I will try to pack all my newbie questions into this one thread and maybe the kindness of you folks will illuminate things for me.

I have been studying Craps and want to be well versed before I hit the strip. I am most interested in the "dark side".

Here are some questions that have come up for me. I will break them up into little scenarios:

1. The dice have sevened-out. The shooter rolls and the point is set at 8. I then place my Don't Come bet. The next roll puts me on 6. Can I take that bet down before the next roll as well as any odds I may have places on it? Or do I need to leave it and take it down AFTER the next roll? So after the 6 is rolled and my money is placed on it, if I do not want it to sit there can I remove it and put it back on the Don't Come box before the dice are rolled again?

2. Do I have to place a bet in the Don't Come box or can I just place it on say 10 after the point is established?

3. I place a Don't Pass bet and the shooter rolls an 8 for the point. I place odds on my Don't Pass bet and the next roll is a 6. Before the next roll can I take down both the Don't Pass bet and the odds I put up? Or do I have to let them sit until a winner or seven-out happens?

4. At a $5 table can I place $7 bets? If I had a $5 on the Don't Pass for the Come Out roll and the shooter rolls 8, can I then add $2 dollars to my Don't Pass before the next roll? Could I make my odds bet on that $7 or does it need to be $5 or $10?

5. I am still trying to get what lay and odds are. The are the same thing right?

I know these are pretty basic probably, but hey I am new. Anyways I greatly appreciate the help.

Quote: CrapperJohn

I know there are probably a million like me who have never been to Vegas and played craps, so I will try to pack all my newbie questions into this one thread and maybe the kindness of you folks will illuminate things for me.

I have been studying Craps and want to be well versed before I hit the strip. I am most interested in the "dark side".

Here are some questions that have come up for me. I will break them up into little scenarios:

1. The dice have sevened-out. The shooter rolls and the point is set at 8. I then place my Don't Come bet. The next roll puts me on 6. Can I take that bet down before the next roll as well as any odds I may have places on it? Or do I need to leave it and take it down AFTER the next roll? So after the 6 is rolled and my money is placed on it, if I do not want it to sit there can I remove it and put it back on the Don't Come box before the dice are rolled again?

2. Do I have to place a bet in the Don't Come box or can I just place it on say 10 after the point is established?

3. I place a Don't Pass bet and the shooter rolls an 8 for the point. I place odds on my Don't Pass bet and the next roll is a 6. Before the next roll can I take down both the Don't Pass bet and the odds I put up? Or do I have to let them sit until a winner or seven-out happens?

4. At a $5 table can I place $7 bets? If I had a $5 on the Don't Pass for the Come Out roll and the shooter rolls 8, can I then add $2 dollars to my Don't Pass before the next roll? Could I make my odds bet on that $7 or does it need to be $5 or $10?

5. I am still trying to get what lay and odds are. The are the same thing right?

I know these are pretty basic probably, but hey I am new. Anyways I greatly appreciate the help.

1) Anytime you place a DONT COME BET & you do not like what rolled you can simply say loudly, " NO Action" at that point the bet will be left where you placed it on the felt & you have the option of picking it up immediately or allowing it to roll again. Basically when you call out, "no action" that starts your bet allover again & the dealer will not ticuh that bet unless you say nothing then that bet will go to what ever number is rolled at that point you can simply say, DOWN in the back please" You can bring that Dont bet down anytime you choose . The problem with that is: once you hav gotten out on a number behind it that is half the battle you do not want to take that bet down at that point. Simply wish for a 7 at that point as well you can always softly very softly call for a 7 when the dice roll & see what happens.
2) You can always "LAY" behind the number you want you do not have to go in the Dont come box. Depending on the odds you can ask the dealer how much it would be to " LAY " the specific number you want and they will tell you once you learn that you wont forget & can just do that automatically.
3) You can tale down a DONT BET any time yo choose just remember to be quick at calling out, "down behind the ?" because you do not want to hold the game up and the dealers will rape you if your not quik.
4)You can place $7 but have to do it all oat once you can not add to that Dont bet behind other than to lay odds. You would lay according to the odds that the house offers. You should see that listed on the placard on the table.
5) Yes & No you can lay odds or you can lay against a number . Depending on the odds of the house.
Just ask the dealers & also there usually will be some seasoned players a the table that will assist you as well all for the asking. No worries just have fun & win big ! "Know when to hold em & know when to fold em" :)

Thanks silicone. I am wondering what the point of the Don't Come and Come are if you can just place bets on the number you want.

You need to do more research. These are the most basic of questions.

You play the pass and come for the "free odds" bet, the best bet you can make in a casino. They pay at the true odds of that number hitting. "Placing" or "buying" a number pays worse odds, or has some kind of "vigorish" or tax.

I would suggest just having fun. Bet whatever you want and hope to get lucky, that's how you'll win a lot for your initial investment. You'll probably lose, so only spend what you can to have fun. Betting the best bets, like you're asking about, is a grind and not really fun (and a slow death in most people's opinion). The prop bets will kill you in the long run, but if you play once a year what the hell, try to get lucky.

As far as lingo goes, just know what you want to do and tell the dealer. You'll look like a new player, but you are, so who cares. And you'll see the dealers will take care of you and start asking for your odds, or correctly placing your bets without you saying anything.

Have fun and good luck

Quote: CrapperJohn

4. At a $5 table can I place $7 bets? If I had a $5 on the Don't Pass for the Come Out roll and the shooter rolls 8, can I then add $2 dollars to my Don't Pass before the next roll? Could I make my odds bet on that $7 or does it need to be $5 or $10?

Absolutely not. This is one of the fastest ways to get chastised by the dealers and the box. I've seen a player get kicked off a table for adding money to his original Don't bet. First he got warned. Then he got warned again after the 2nd violation. Then, after the 3rd time, they finally booted him from the table. (The dude was acting like a jerk to begin with)

Also, you should be careful when you use the word "place" in a craps game. A place bet is completely different from a Don't bet.

5) lay and odds are the same thing essentially. When you "lay" you're playing the dark side. Your "odds" are for the right side. But they're the same thing, the "free odds" behind your bet. Example: if you're playing the pass line and the 9 is established, you "take odds" and they're paid $3 to your $2 if the 9 hits. You're playing the don't with the 9 established and you "lay" odds and they're paid $2 to your $3 if the 7 hits before the 9. So you then need to figure out what multiples to bet to make the payouts even, so you don't make a half dollar that gets rounded down and basically give money away

Good to know. Thanks.

I see others have chimed in first, but I still want to throw my 2 cents in.

First of all, congratulations on gravitating to the dark side. Before I answer your questions, let me first encourage you to play the Don't Come instead of the Don't Pass. If has the same odds, but gets less flack from the other betters.

If you have not already studied it, please study https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

1. The dice have sevened-out. The shooter rolls and the point is set at 8. I then place my Don't Come bet. The next roll puts me on 6. Can I take that bet down before the next roll as well as any odds I may have places on it? Or do I need to leave it and take it down AFTER the next roll? So after the 6 is rolled and my money is placed on it, if I do not want it to sit there can I remove it and put it back on the Don't Come box before the dice are rolled again?

ANS: Once a Don't bet (Don't Come or Don't Pass) is established on a number, you are free to remove it at any time. The casino allows you to do this, because you have the mathematical advantage on the bet after the come out roll is over. In contrast, one cannot remove a Pass Line after the come out roll, because the casino has the edge. Returning to the original question, while some Don't players prefer to say "No Action" when the point is 6 or 8, it is to your benefit mathematically to let it stand.

2. Do I have to place a bet in the Don't Come box or can I just place it on say 10 after the point is established?

ANS: Don't we wish! No, you must endure the come out roll (and the most likely 7) before enjoying the benefits of the dark side.

3. I place a Don't Pass bet and the shooter rolls an 8 for the point. I place odds on my Don't Pass bet and the next roll is a 6. Before the next roll can I take down both the Don't Pass bet and the odds I put up? Or do I have to let them sit until a winner or seven-out happens?

ANS: See ANS to #1

4. At a $5 table can I place $7 bets? If I had a $5 on the Don't Pass for the Come Out roll and the shooter rolls 8, can I then add $2 dollars to my Don't Pass before the next roll? Could I make my odds bet on that $7 or does it need to be $5 or $10?

ANS:
a) you can bet any amount at or above the table minimum. There are some bets, however, that require a certain amount to receive the full payoff
b) No. After the come out, you have the advantage, so adding to the bet is a no-no.
c) With regards to laying the odds on a don't bet, in order to receive the full proper payoff, it needs to be in increments of $6 for points of 6/8, in increments of $3 for points of 5/9, and in increments of $2 for points of 4/10.

5. I am still trying to get what lay and odds are. The are the same thing right?

ANS: When playing the darkside you lay odds, meaning that you have to bet more than you could win. That is because the 7, being the most likely outcome, puts the probabilities in your favor.

Don't be bashful about being a noob. We all were at one time. Between the wizard of odds site and some dealer guidance (pick a slow table), you'll get the hang in no time.

Darth

Also view the Wizard's video on dark side playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUDNcvuGE_8

Darth Vader approves!

if you are really such a newbie then keep your first outings very simple. Learn the special etiquette or you will be sorry.

And when betting the dark side, look for some pretty ugly looks from everyone else playing the right side... you have to have a bit of skin to play the dark side.

And you should know what you are doing too. Learn to know how to lay odds on the don't pass and learn the quantities to bet: on a 6 and 8, it's units of $6. on 5 and 9, $3 increments and on 4 and 10, even numbers. Let the dealers construct your bet correctly (place the chips properly) until you learn to do it correctly.

Crap players are already superstitious enough. If the dealers spend a great deal of time explaining the betting to you, the right side betters are going to just get more irate for ruining the flow of the table.

As a don't player, you really gotta pretend not to give a shit.

Quote: boymimbo

As a don't player, you really gotta pretend not to give a shit.

To the OP: The above statement is good advice if you're going to play the dark side. I play the Don't myself, and I always hear ignorant comments from Pass Line players. I just ignore them.

Quote: boymimbo

As a don't player, you really gotta pretend not to give a shit.

I don't have to pretend- I really don't give a shit.

Why would I care what a bunch of strangers around a table think?

Don't players go against the herd mentality.

I concur that you should take the Craps class if such a class is offered in the casino. If not, then you should spend a couple hours just watching the table, and perhaps watch the table for a little bit even if you do take the class. Since you seem interested in the Dark Side, hopefully someone will be making Dark Side type bets when you are watching the table.

The two best bets you can make are the Don't Pass and Don't Come, which are effectively the same bet, but the Don't Come takes place after a point is established. You would also want to lay maximum odds, or if the maximum odds (given the table minimum) are more than you wish to bet, then lay the greatest amount of odds with which you are comfortable. The Odds Bets have no house edge, as has been mentioned, so that is the best bet on the table.

With respect to picking up a Don't Pass or Don't Come bet after the point is established, NEVER DO THAT!!! If you took the Come Out roll alone, let's say that was an Even Money bet, one roll...okay, if you bet the Don't Pass or Don't Come, considering only numbers that either win or lose, you would have a 3/11 (2 or 3) chance of winning and an 8/11 (7 or 11) chance of losing. In other words, assuming a bet is decided on the Come Out roll, the Dont's would lose 72.73% of the time. If you bet the Right Way, you have an 8/12 (7 or 11) chance of winning and a 4/12 (2, 3, 12) chance of losing. Assuming a bet is decided on the Come Out roll, the Right Way wins 66.67% of the time. The disparity between the losing percentage for the Dark Side and winning percentage for the Right Way is because a roll of 12 (Midnight) pushes on the Dark Side and loses on the Right Side.

That's why you would never pick up a Don't Pass or Don't Come bet, the Come Out roll is your, "Hurdle," and when a point has been established, the probability is that your bet will win. That's also why you CANNOT pick up a Pass or Come roll after the point is established, at that point, the bet is more likely to lose.

Many people will advise you quietly play the Don't Pass, if that's what you choose to do. I think it depends on your personality, if being vocal about the Don't Pass will enhance your fun level, then do that. I used to be a Dark Sider, you have just as much right to make your bets and cheer for the desired result as a Right Way bettor, besides, (in my experience) it usually ended up being bickering in good fun. I'd make an exception if someone at the table seemed, "Serious," and was playing a crapload of money, but if everyone just seems like they are there for a good time, people often enjoy bantering back and forth whilst playing opposing sides.

My favorite thing to do, if there were only one or two other players and they seemed to be the carefree type, would be to make a little gun out of my fingers and, "Shoot," at the dice on every Seven-Out. That's really bold, though, probably a bit over the top unless you're sure you're playing with guys that are just there for fun.

Quote: MrV

Don't players go against the herd mentality.

Which, in itself, should illustrate its wisdom, since the herd typically gets slaughtered!

Darth

"Many people will advise you quietly play the Don't Pass, if that's what you choose to do. I think it depends on your personality, if being vocal about the Don't Pass will enhance your fun level, then do that. I used to be a Dark Sider, you have just as much right to make your bets and cheer for the desired result as a Right Way bettor, besides, (in my experience) it usually ended up being bickering in good fun."

Being vocal about winning when others are losing will be tolerated only if you are the biggest player on the table. Otherwise, the pit boss will likely ask you to tone it down, lest it make the other customers uncomfortable. I saw this happen in person. Now the player was kinda being a jerk...

Pick up a John Patrick book you Dork!! (I'm sure MrV agrees)

Don't cheer a seven out if you value your life on the don't. Pick up your winnings quietly. Unless the entire table is playing the don't.

You're not even supposed to mention the name of the number that should never be mentioned.

Quote: KeyserSoze

I don't have to pretend- I really don't give a shit.

Why would I care what a bunch of strangers around a table think?

Seems a bit weird quoted my own post, but I wanted to clarify.

Even though I play DON'T, I'm never an ass about it. When I win, I collect my chips quietly. If someone pokes fun at me, I just smile and shrug my shoulders. I bet small stakes when playing at a disadvantage, so its never serious. I can have fun with it.

In my experience (admittedly limited) I have not seen many people play the Don't. Maybe twice out of 40 or 50 times at the table.

The last time, I was right beside the guy at one end of a table with maybe three other players. I glanced at his bet and must have looked surprised and that caught his eye. So I just smiled at him. I don't care if anyone plays the Don't but I think it would bug me if they cheered their wins. Anyway this gentleman just played "his" game quietly.

I was standing at the end of the table playing the DP. There were only about 5 or 6 players at the table.

The shooter was standing next to the stickman facing me. I noticed that he was setting the dice. He established a point and again I watched him set the dice. I usually just watch the shooters hands but this time I looked up and he was looking at me. We were staring at each other.

He did this every time. It seems that he took it personal that I was playing DP. He sevened out and I won my DP.

The dice went around the table and back to him. He set the dice and tossed a #4. I backed up my DP by laying double odds. He set the dice and we had another staring match......7 out! You could see the steam coming out of his ears.

This happened a third time. I had to meet my wife so I colored up a winner and left.

Why do some pass line players make it personal when they see a DP player betting and making money?

Thanks Darth. I am studying as much as I can and when I get to Vegas, before I even lay a dollar down, I am going to watch, watch, and learn. I am a fairly conservative bettor. I am wondering about the Action call. So if I call "No Action" my Don't and Odds on 6 will sit there and not get hit if a 6 comes up right? What do I say to get that back in action on the next roll or proceeding rolls? And how long can it sit there in "No Action"? Indefinitely?

In regards to #4, can I add Odds or add to the Odds and not the original bet at anytime after the come out? Or is that a no-no too?

Also, aside from maybe looking strange, if that possible in Vegas, can I watch a table and play a fake game with pen and paper for myself as the real game is happening? I know that is probably a real beginner give away, but I do not really care what others may think. Just wondering if I will upset management or something.

Thanks for helping this noob!

Quote: FatGeezus

Why do some pass line players make it personal when they see a DP player betting and making money?

Because they're idiots. Baccarat players are the same way. They get all pissed if you bet Player when they're betting Banker (and vice versa).

Quote: CrapperJohn

Thanks Darth. I am studying as much as I can and when I get to Vegas, before I even lay a dollar down, I am going to watch, watch, and learn. I am a fairly conservative bettor. I am wondering about the Action call. So if I call "No Action" my Don't and Odds on 6 will sit there and not get hit if a 6 comes up right? What do I say to get that back in action on the next roll or proceeding rolls? And how long can it sit there in "No Action"? Indefinitely?

CrapperJohn, if your Don't Come bet has already been moved behind a number, you CANNOT call "No Action" for one roll (or indefinitely). You either take down your DC bet completely, or leave it up.

Quote: CrapperJohn

In regards to #4, can I add Odds or add to the Odds and not the original bet at anytime after the come out? Or is that a no-no too?

You can add/take down your free odds bet any time you want.

Quote: CrapperJohn

Also, aside from maybe looking strange, if that possible in Vegas, can I watch a table and play a fake game with pen and paper for myself as the real game is happening? I know that is probably a real beginner give away, but I do not really care what others may think. Just wondering if I will upset management or something.

The pit couldn't care less if you write down numbers with a pen & paper since recording rolls will not give you any type of advantage over the house.

Quote: FatGeezus

Why do some pass line players make it personal when they see a DP player betting and making money?

You were telling him he was a worthless puke of a shooter. You were right!

Maybe im a sadist but there is great pleasure in my dc bets stacked in bundles after a seven.

Quote: djatc

Maybe im a sadist but there is great pleasure in my dc bets stacked in bundles after a seven.

I agree. Never mind that most of the money coming back to you is just your bet, it makes the stack look huge!

CrapperJohn,

"So if I call "No Action" my Don't and Odds on 6 will sit there and not get hit if a 6 comes up right? What do I say to get that back in action on the next roll or proceeding rolls? And how long can it sit there in "No Action"? Indefinitely?"

You are slightly mixing two different instructions. When on the Don't Come, if you choose for your bet to not travel to the point number just rolled, you say "No Action." The dealer will then simply leave your bet in the Don't Come area. Despite going against the math, some players choose to do this when the point is 6 or 8.

Once your DC bet has traveled to a number and perhaps has odds, I believe you can turn the bet "OFF" temporarily if you choose. Just inform the dealer of this fact and he will put an "OFF" button on top of your bet. Some lightside players choose to do this for the next roll following when the dice have been thrown off the table. Once "OFF", just tell the dealer when you wish to be turned back "ON." Now, admittedly, if you do this too much, the dealer will likely get annoyed. So either use this judiciously or tip well. About this issue, I disagree with Beethoven's answer.

"can I add Odds or add to the Odds and not the original bet at anytime after the come out? Or is that a no-no too?"

You are free to alter the ODDS bet at any time including its total removal. As the casino has no advantage, they don't care.

"Also, aside from maybe looking strange, if that possible in Vegas, can I watch a table and play a fake game with pen and paper for myself as the real game is happening? I know that is probably a real beginner give away, but I do not really care what others may think. Just wondering if I will upset management or something."

While frowned on in the blackjack pit, you are free to record away for Craps. As craps is a game of independent trials, the casino doesn't care. Such a thing is done often in the Baccarat table (part of its culture) and the casino even provides a history board for Roulette.

Overall, you are doing yourself a favor by being a student of the game. Puts you ahead of 99% of the players.

Good luck, Darth.

Quote: darthvader

Once your DC bet has traveled to a number and perhaps has odds, I believe you can turn the bet "OFF" temporarily if you choose.

Most places here in Vegas don't allow this. You either take down your DC bet/odds completely, or leave it up. Of course, you can put your odds back on the very next roll (but not the original DC bet).

Thanks Darth and Beethoven. I can use all the help I can get. I am watching the wizard videos now and I see on the Don't pass one the dealer makes a distinction about which side of the chip to place odds. I will back that vid up and catch that again, but what is he talking about if you know?

Also the pen and paper is not so much to record the rolls, as I know that would not make much sense, but rather to place fictional bets as if I were really playing to see how my betting would turn out if I was actually playing.

CrapperJohn, not to get picky, but you're confusing the terms, which could lead to some confusion at the table if the dealer isn't sure what you're talking about. The word 'place' is usually used when referring to Place bets. 'Taking' odds means you're making a free odds bet on a Pass Line/Come bet, while 'laying' odds means that you're making a free odds bet on a Don't Pass/Don't Come bet.

I wouldn't worry too much about where to put your chips when you're laying odds on a Don't Pass bet. Heck, most Don't bettors I've seen in Vegas (even the regular ones!) always screw it up. Most dealers are used to this and will correct your chips for you, no problem. But if you must know, you're supposed to put your chips to the left of your Don't Pass bet if you're on the left side of the table, and to the right of your Don't bet if you're on the right side of the table. The reason is because the dealers are supposed to pay the odds bet first, and since they start with the player closest to them on payouts, the correct placement of the chips makes it a lot easier for them as they go from one player to the next.

Quote: CrapperJohn

Also the pen and paper is not so much to record the rolls, as I know that would not make much sense, but rather to place fictional bets as if I were really playing to see how my betting would turn out if I was actually playing.

I doubt anyone would have a problem with this.

Quote: CrapperJohn

Thanks Darth and Beethoven. I can use all the help I can get. I am watching the wizard videos now and I see on the Don't pass one the dealer makes a distinction about which side of the chip to place odds. I will back that vid up and catch that again, but what is he talking about if you know?

When taking odds on the PL, the odds go unambiguously behind the PL bet. When laying odds on the DC, the dealer places it. However, on the DP, the player physically handles laying the odds bet. There is protocol with regards to where in relation to the DP bet the odds bet goes. It goes between the DP bet and the dealer. The reason for said protocol is that you can physically alter your DP odds at any time. However, you cannot add to your DP bet. By having a protocol of where the money sits, it makes it easier for the dealer to make sure that you are not adding to the DP bet.

Oh, and Beethoven is right too. Both reasons for the placement are valid.

Quote: darthvader

Being vocal about winning when others are losing will be tolerated only if you are the biggest player on the table. Otherwise, the pit boss will likely ask you to tone it down, lest it make the other customers uncomfortable. I saw this happen in person. Now the player was kinda being a jerk...

I think it depends on what you say, too, whether it is about the result or could be construed as being directed at other players. I was always inoffensive in my commentary, which is why I said, "Bickering in good fun." I'm sure you've played more Craps, particularly Dark Side, than I have, so you've seen a lot more stuff in this regard. I've never had a problem, but again, judging the mood of the other players is paramount.

It's always paramount, though, even playing the Right Way. If I establish a point of Eight on a $5.00 bet and Take the Odds for another $10, I'm obviously not going to hoot and holler if someone throws a black on the Hard Eight and I win with a 6-2 or 5-3, unless it is extremely obvious that $100 is nothing to him, then maybe a very quiet, "Got it." I have mentioned that I don't like throwing the dice with people who are especially serious or risking substantial sums of money, though, I think Craps should be pure fun. That's also why I like Let it Ride, my favorite joke is to take my sweet time looking at something like an off-suit 9-7-2 before taking it back and then have the dealer cock his/her head at me when the hand gets shown!