There was a guy playing next to me, and he was doing pretty well especially on the prop bets. So much so that over the course of about an hour, he was betting for the dealers quite frequently. He must have bet at least $30 to $40 dollars for them, perhaps more. Anyway, at the end of his session he was about $800 ahead. He colored up, and what happened next is what I found so irritating. Right before he left the table, he generously put $50 on the felt and said to the dealer, "This is for you guys. Where do you want to bet it?"
The dealer thought for a second, looked at the guy's winnings in his hand, and said, "Drop 3 of those red chips right here," and pointed to the Come box right next to the $50 that the guy had already tipped them. The player looked a bit confused but did as he was told and gave the dealer $15 more [for a total of $65 instead of the original $50 tip]. The dealer then stated, "We're going to go $64 across for us with $1 on the Yo." (I thought to myself, "What a greedy old bastard!)
But justice was served because the dealers got one hit on the very next roll, but right after that the shooter threw a seven. (I laughed to myself)
This incident, of course, had absolutely no effect on me, but does anybody else hate seeing dealer behavior like this? I mean, basically helping himself to 3 more of the player's red chips seems a little outrageous to me, especially when the player had already tipped almost $100 for them on an $800 win.
What do you guys think?
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'd tell any Caesars dealer, "your tip comes out of the profits from 6:5 blackjack."
You said it, brother! LOL
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'd tell any Caesars dealer, "your tip comes out of the profits from 6:5 blackjack."
That is the sentiment I thought about today regarding the Golden Nugget's choice to implement that silly Fremont Street Experience Fee (now called the Downtown Destination Fee.) OK, I won't do that, but I thought about it.
Quote: odiousgambitI'm not following, what was so greedy?
Telling a player to tip $65 instead of being happy with $50 (plus all the other tips they previously got from him).
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'd tell any Caesars dealer, "your tip comes out of the profits from 6:5 blackjack."
I often wonder what would happen if all players didn't tip!
Quote: superrickI often wonder what would happen if all players didn't tip!
Winning hands in blackjack (including a blackjack) pay even money minus a 5% commission.
Quote: superrickI often wonder what would happen if all players didn't tip!
If nobody tipped, the casino's would be forced to pay the dealers a reasonable wage, or they wouldn't have any dealers left.
Quote: ScotIf nobody tipped, the casino's would be forced to pay the dealers a reasonable wage, or they wouldn't have any dealers left.
That is exactly what would happen and we the players wouldn't be subsidizing the casinos. It's not bad enough that they give you lousy payouts on their slot machine and bad table games, they also make it so most players feel that if the don't tip the dealers they will get nothing but harassment from the dealers that should be helping the players!
I often hear from other players that if you don't tip the dealers will do everything in their power to get you to seven out when playing craps. Most dealers take it for granted when you are tipping them they don't even apprecite it! There always seems to be one dealer in a crew that thinks its funny if you seven out when playing craps and will do anything they can to get that to happen.
Just watch a craps game long enough and you will see these jerks sticking out their sticks in front of the shooter as they are shooting, or sticking their hands down into the bowl when you have the shooter making a shot. You can pick these guys out if you know what to watch for!
Why in the world should we the players tip when you have dealers like this dealing to us?
Quote: superrickThat is exactly what would happen and we the players wouldn't be subsidizing the casinos. It's not bad enough that they give you lousy payouts on their slot machine and bad table games, they also make it so most players feel that if the don't tip the dealers they will get nothing but harassment from the dealers that should be helping the players!
The payouts would just get worse if the casinos' payroll expenses went up. They're sure as hell not going to sacrifice profit to make up for a lack of tipping...
As we slide increasingly into a nearly pure Service Economy, we'll see more and more of this.
EDIT #2: Just modified the OP for clarity as well.
Quote: Beethoven9thEDIT TO ORIGINAL POST: I apologize, I reread my initial post and now understand why it was a little unclear how the Caesars dealer was greedy. As Beardgoat alluded to, the player tipped the dealers $50 at the end of his session, yet the dealer instructed him to put out an additional $15 for the boys so that they could go $64 across with $1 on the Yo (for a total of $65 rather than $50). Greedy old bastard!
It is taboo and definitely greedy. It works for the dealer one time, but it's sure to bring consequences. If I was there, I might not show disapproval, but secretly I would be keeping their tips with me when I slipped away.
Quote: rdw4potusThe payouts would just get worse if the casinos' payroll expenses went up. They're sure as hell not going to sacrifice profit to make up for a lack of tipping...
I have read a handful of threads on 2+2 about poker in Australia, where the rake/hr is nearly tripled vs. most US casinos. And I laugh at the occasional silly Australian say, "at least we don't have to tip"! Also poker is the one casino-run game where tipping is ridiculously consistent. You're out of the norm if you don't tip at least $1 for any win > $10.
After several decades of playing craps, I have to confess that I have never witnessed these immense "powers" to create seven outs. For educational purposes, could you list a few of these awesome techniques. Thanks.Quote: superrickI often hear from other players that if you don't tip the dealers will do everything in their power to get you to seven out when playing craps. Most dealers take it for granted when you are tipping them they don't even apprecite it! There always seems to be one dealer in a crew that thinks its funny if you seven out when playing craps and will do anything they can to get that to happen.
Quote: superrick...when you are tipping them they don't even apprecite it!
You said it, superrick. I'm always amazed when I come across dealers like this. Several months ago at Caesars, I won about $300 at craps, and during my session I made some dealer bets. ($40 in total—two $15 bets & one $10 bet)
What got me though was that the dealer on base didn't even bother with a simple 'Thank you', a smile, or any other type of acknowledgement for the tip. He would just glare at me occasionally while I was playing, yet whenever I would make eye contact with him, he'd just look away. I have avoided the old fool ever since. I mean, I can understand if somebody's having a bad day and all, but not even acknowledging three tips from a player seems pretty bad to me.
On top of that, I've heard from several people that full-time dealers at Caesars make $80,000+ per year, so they get much bigger paychecks than I do. Yet these are the same guys who want to hustle players (who earn a lot less) for tips?!?! Please!
What commenters here may not realize is that the player and the dealer could very well know each other more than well enough to be able to conduct give and take on a usually supersensitive topic like tips. Someone at the rail who is unaware of any history pro or con between the house and a specific player is highly liable to misconstrue a given interaction.Quote: BeardgoatTelling the player to drop an extra $15 is pretty bad. I didnt initially understand that part
Quote: SanchoPanzaWhat commenters here may not realize is that the player and the dealer could very well know each other more than well enough to be able to conduct give and take on a usually supersensitive topic like tips. Someone at the rail who is unaware of any history pro or con between the house and a specific player is highly liable to misconstrue a given interaction.
I agree in general, but that wasn't the case here. The player had been conversing with a different dealer on base during the course of the hour that I was there, and he was talking about how it was his first time ever in Vegas. He was in town for a buddy's wedding. This player looked like he was in his mid-20's, the greedy dealer well into his 60's. So it was simply an old timer trying to get his grubby little hands on a Vegas newbie's winnings.
',
Quote: AlanMendelsonThis incident at CP is so outrageous I can't believe it really happening that way. Are you sure?
Yep, totally happened. I don't want to tar & feather the dealer in public, but this occurred on graveyard with a short, older dealer.
Quote: tringlomaneI have read a handful of threads on 2+2 about poker in Australia, where the rake/hr is nearly tripled vs. most US casinos. And I laugh at the occasional silly Australian say, "at least we don't have to tip"! Also poker is the one casino-run game where tipping is ridiculously consistent. You're out of the norm if you don't tip at least $1 for any win > $10.
What about just about every other game where our payouts are equal or better and tipping still isn't even allowed?
Quote: IbeatyouracesI can't understand why people in $1/$2 games, raise and win the blinds and then toss the dealer $1. Nice 33.3...% tip for that hand.
$1 per down, and nothing more = $20/hour for the dealer. I -might- tip an extra $1-2 if it's a monster pot, but otherwise every dealer (unless a completely outwardly rude annoying git) gets the same tip from me, whether I win or lose.
You select a bet that fits within his proffered money. Period. It does not matter if he is only one dollar short of a Lollapolooza bet, you don't try to shame a guy into betting a larger tip, particularly a George.
Yeah, sometimes a dealer gets annoyed at seeing ten dollars in the field after I've just joined a 15.00 table but its a dealer bet and I ain't raising it.
Any dealer says "drop a dollar more" has better be doing it for the math of my change not for his toke box.
Quote: cowboyI would have dropped the three red and then picked up the 50.
This is definitely the correct move. Even just picking up the $50 is justified, imo.
Quote: AussieWhat about just about every other game where our payouts are equal or better and tipping still isn't even allowed?
But the posts I laughed at were in response to poker, but if the rules are equal, then it's different.
When Australia does offer the same rules/betting limits as they do in the US, then not tipping is obviously better overall. They really rape poker in Australia though. It's one of the things US casinos offer that is really competitive. It is definitely a "loss leader" here.
On the other hand if you want to know about the most obnoxious tip hustle I ever saw it happened at another casino at craps.
The dealers saw that when a player got $1 chips, the player would add the $1 chips to the passline bet he had for the dealers. So let's say a bet paid $14 -- they'd give the play ONE red and 9 WHITES (the one dollar chips) knowing that the player would stack all 9 on their passline bet. Yes, the player was drunk and they took advantage of him. At one point the stack of chips on the dealer bet looked like the Empire State Building -- and the point hit and the dealers got paid.
I'm not going to mention the casino. I've played there several times and this happened only once. It was not Caesars.
Alan, I think you're forgetting that you're a pretty well-known guy in the So. Cal. area, and this fact isn't lost on Caesars. Higher profile people are a higher priority to them, so your experience is likely much different from some unknown guy. Also—and I could be wrong about this—but I have a feeling that you probably bet a little more than the average player and tip accordingly.Quote: AlanMendelsonIt is just so out of character for them and that casino so I can't beleive it.
As for me, I can honestly say that out of all the casinos I've been to in Vegas, Caesars is definitely the worst in terms of how I've been treated personally (which is strange because I've never had similar problems at any other casino I've played at). In addition, I habitually tip dealers 10-15% of my winnings and even make a bet for them here & there when I'm losing, and I'd never even think about pulling any Ahigh-type shenanigans. So I don't know what their problem is. (EDIT: Come to think of it, there's one more casino that's kind of bad: The Bellagio. But everywhere else is generally fine.)
Here's one example of a Caesars dealer who p*ssed me off.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/14531-greedy-a-dealers-at-caesars/#post255814Quote: AlanMendelsonI am still in shock. Were these young dealers? Caesars has added some young dealers in the last couple of months, or were these the older veterans?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/14531-greedy-a-dealers-at-caesars/#post255811
I totally believe it because something similar actually happened to me. But rather than make a scene, I simply colored up a few minutes later and pretended like I had to go. Needless to say, I've never played with that particular dealer since.Quote: AlanMendelsonOn the other hand if you want to know about the most obnoxious tip hustle I ever saw it happened at another casino at craps.
The dealers saw that when a player got $1 chips, the player would add the $1 chips to the passline bet he had for the dealers. So let's say a bet paid $14 -- they'd give the play ONE red and 9 WHITES (the one dollar chips) knowing that the player would stack all 9 on their passline bet. Yes, the player was drunk and they took advantage of him. At one point the stack of chips on the dealer bet looked like the Empire State Building -- and the point hit and the dealers got paid.
Quote: cowboyI would have dropped the three red and then picked up the 50.
+1
Quote: Beethoven9thAlan, I think you're forgetting that you're a pretty well-known guy in the So. Cal. area, and this fact isn't lost on Caesars.
None of the new staff knows me, that includes dealers and floor people. I'd guess that maybe only about 20% of the craps crews and floor people know who I am. When I ask for a marker now they want my driver license along with my 7 Stars card.
When an old timer is there and mentions to the others that I was married at a craps table they can't believe it.
When I mention Jimmy Wyke the new guys say "who?"
The last time I was there a couple of weeks ago, they didn't have any regular craps dealers working at 4am... so they had off duty baccarat dealers in tuxedos from the Palace Court high limit room dealing craps.
I almost don't recognize anyone there any more under the dome.
Quote: JBWinning hands in blackjack (including a blackjack) pay even money minus a 5% commission.
Hmmm.... sounds like Baccarat to me....
Quote: AlanMendelsonI am still in shock. Were these young dealers? Caesars has added some young dealers in the last couple of months, or were these the older veterans? Names? It is just so out of character for them and that casino so I can't beleive it.
What's so hard to believe, you have jerks in ever casino dealing, you just don't spend enough time at the tables!
if your not watching.
I understand now a couple of those dealers were let go,i will see in a couple of weeks.
Dicesetter
Quote: AlanMendelsonI am still in shock. Were these young dealers? Caesars has added some young dealers in the last couple of months, or were these the older veterans? Names? It is just so out of character for them and that casino so I can't beleive it.
On the other hand if you want to know about the most obnoxious tip hustle I ever saw it happened at another casino at craps.
The dealers saw that when a player got $1 chips, the player would add the $1 chips to the passline bet he had for the dealers. So let's say a bet paid $14 -- they'd give the play ONE red and 9 WHITES (the one dollar chips) knowing that the player would stack all 9 on their passline bet. Yes, the player was drunk and they took advantage of him. At one point the stack of chips on the dealer bet looked like the Empire State Building -- and the point hit and the dealers got paid.
I'm not going to mention the casino. I've played there several times and this happened only once. It was not Caesars.
I stayed and played once at Caesars. Many of the dealers were nice and polite, but there were also quite a few who were very rude or downright snotty. In another thread, or my blog, I talk about how the dealers and box drove away a guy who had taken out a $30,000 or $50,000 marker. He had done nothing wrong, other than point out they had missed paying him on a ~$200 bet. They treated him like shit, but he was right, they had missed him. The floor and the box were both also being assholes too. The Tape proved the player right, and he was grudgingly paid. That was when I knew this place was not for me.
Based on my recollection, I can totally see this event having taken place. There about 6 dealers I can remember who would have been more than capable of pulling a stunt like this. Sure every place has a bad dealer or two, but CP seemed to have an abundance, AND THE FLOOR WAS ALLOWING IT TO OCCUR. That is the real problem that I saw. There was no attempt made to clean it up.
In the same vein that I said I would never play in another AC casino, so too will I never play again at CP. Life is too short, and other opps are plentiful.
None of this is related to this post other than the fact that I am not sure why Alan thinks it could not have happened. It just seems like the Employees at CP have an attitude different to the other TR casinos I have stayed in.
Quote: dicesitterwell i have never seen anything like the old crew at Riverside in Laughlin. They would take your underwear
if your not watching.
The last time I was down there I had a dealer refuse to book a place bet for me, he insisted that I make a put bet on the pass-line. It got to the point that they removed him from the table, I've never had anything like that happen to me before.
I was just making sure that I got the dice when they came my way because they were one to the right of whenre I had bought in at. This stopped the game, and when it was over with the suit that removed him apologized to everyone on the table.
Basically you have a bunch on dealers that have been dealing the game forever, that are nothing more then break-in dealers. They think that there job is to talk about anything they can think of, besides the game of craps. I have never seen so many bets that are being paid out wrong, in my life.
All the dealers in Laughlin are hustling tips, its pretty bad, down there!
You just got to love a dealer that thinks they know the game and they don't know what they are doing, but they surly know how to hustle tips, “Two way bet right,.. throw me two dollars for the hardways”!
The other thing about Laughlin, is some of the dealers hate the players and their jobs, more so then any other place I've played craps!
Quote: BozIt just seems like the Employees at CP have an attitude different to the other TR casinos I have stayed in.
+1
Quote: Beethoven9thI happened to be playing craps at Caesars the other night and saw some blatant dealer greed on display. Here's what happened.
There was a guy playing next to me, and he was doing pretty well especially on the prop bets. So much so that over the course of about an hour, he was betting for the dealers quite frequently. He must have bet at least $30 to $40 dollars for them, perhaps more. Anyway, at the end of his session he was about $800 ahead. He colored up, and what happened next is what I found so irritating. Right before he left the table, he generously put $50 on the felt and said to the dealer, "This is for you guys. Where do you want to bet it?"
The dealer thought for a second, looked at the guy's winnings in his hand, and said, "Drop 3 of those red chips right here," and pointed to the Come box right next to the $50 that the guy had already tipped them. The player looked a bit confused but did as he was told and gave the dealer $15 more [for a total of $65 instead of the original $50 tip]. The dealer then stated, "We're going to go $64 across for us with $1 on the Yo." (I thought to myself, "What a greedy old bastard!)
But justice was served because the dealers got one hit on the very next roll, but right after that the shooter threw a seven. (I laughed to myself)
This incident, of course, had absolutely no effect on me, but does anybody else hate seeing dealer behavior like this? I mean, basically helping himself to 3 more of the player's red chips seems a little outrageous to me, especially when the player had already tipped almost $100 for them on an $800 win.
What do you guys think?
I don't know what the laws about tips are in Vegas, but here in Ohio, the state actually bans us from hustling tips (it's OK; we get plenty of them anyway from winning players.) So if one of us tried that, we'd get fired and potentially in trouble with the Gaming Commission, and there's a chance we'd jeopardize the jobs of the rest of the crew, too.
We're also trained to be grateful and thank players immediately for dealer bets, tokes, etc. and I make sure to do that, even if a dealer bet loses (i.e. if a blackjack player bets for me but loses, I thank him/her as I collect the losing bet, or if players bet for us but the 7 rolls and it loses, we generally announce, "Thanks for the bets, folks," or something along those lines.) So to see something like what you described shocks my conscience as a dealer.
That said, if someone offered to bet $50 for us any way we wanted, I'd probably take a vote among the other dealers on the table. We all share tokes, so it's their money, too. Plus it's the closest thing to gambling that the state allows us to do anyway.
The crews are top notch, reasonably friendly, and I've never been tip hustled.
When tipped they thank the tipper, always.
Polite and professional, which is what I want and expect from a leading casino in the world's foremost gambling mecca.
Quote: hwccdealerWe're also trained to be grateful and thank players immediately for dealer bets, tokes, etc. and I make sure to do that, even if a dealer bet loses (i.e. if a blackjack player bets for me but loses, I thank him/her as I collect the losing bet, or if players bet for us but the 7 rolls and it loses, we generally announce, "Thanks for the bets, folks," or something along those lines.)
Then you're the type of dealer I like and would enjoy playing with. IMHO, it says a lot when a dealer thanks a player after they make a dealer bet, and then once more after the bet is resolved (win or lose). I always make sure to take care of courteous dealers like that.
OTOH, dealers like this one are always avoided in the future.
It surely looks as if it's not meant for any of us peons to learn more information about the dealers' powers to cause seven outs. Too bad!Quote: superrickI often hear from other players that if you don't tip the dealers will do everything in their power to get you to seven out when playing craps. Most dealers take it for granted when you are tipping them they don't even apprecite it! There always seems to be one dealer in a crew that thinks its funny if you seven out when playing craps and will do anything they can to get that to happen.
Quote: SanchoPanzaAfter several decades of playing craps, I have to confess that I have never witnessed these immense "powers" to create seven outs. For educational purposes, could you list a few of these awesome techniques. Thanks.
Quote: BeardgoatI never liked Caesars Palace for craps since they used to use the coins on the table instead of $1 chips. I hated hearing the clanking coins. I played there once and never went back. Do they still use coins?
Not any more. If you check out the Casino Chip of the Day thread post for Caesars Palace, I include a discussion of my negative feelings about their use of tokens (one of which I kept) and the fact that I returned to get a clay chip when they started using those. That post includes images of both the token and the clay chip.
Quote: RaleighCraps
In the same vein that I said I would never play in another AC casino, so too will I never play again at CP. Life is too short, and other opps are plentiful.
I missed your AC story. Can you kindly put it here in short version? Thanks... as for Caesars Palace, I've always enjoyed playing craps there, especially in the main casino because the lighting is nice, the pit crew are well dressed, the dealers know how to deal, and while they hustle tips it's just part of making a living. I recall once winning apx $1000.usd in short order and the dealer asked me "how about the boys?" and so I bet $5.usd for them, on I think it was the hard ten. He said "no thanks" and actually moved the $5.usd chip to one of my own place bets. I colored up and whispered to him "fuck off dickhead" and went to the cage.
Quote: SanchoPanzaIt surely looks as if it's not meant for any of us peons to learn more information about the dealers' powers to cause seven outs. Too bad!
It's all perception as you know. The dealers often take credit for hardways being made. Naturally they are going to think they can cause seven outs.