Craps ruling question

I was at a strip casino playing craps. After the come out roll there were a lot of place bets on the table. The shooter rolled and the dice landed leaning against two stacks of chips. Both of the stacks were 12 dollar place bets on the eight. The one dice leaned against both sets of chips. The implication to those watching in those few seconds before the ruling were obvious. If one stack of chips was pulled the result would be a seven and if another stack was pulled the result would very likely be a place number like an eight.

I want to ask what is the correct way to resolve this situation. I mainly want to focus on whether one of the stacks of chips should be physically removed to see where the dice lands. If so, what is the justification for deciding which stack to remove? On the other hand, one could argue that you should make the determination without actually moving the chips in question. After all, the pit boss could always remove the chips in a way favorable to the casino. There are 360 degrees at which he could come at the chips and some of them could potentially have different results. There are also a variety of ways to remove the chips like fast or slow etc.

Anyway, in the actual scenario, pit boss looks pulls the stack of chips we all knew would yield a seven and called seven out. I think the decision to actually use the physical removal of the chips to decide the roll was questionable, especially since removing the other stack would have yielded an eight. Anyone that plays craps has seen countless examples of dice leaning on one object, and those cases are much more obvious and I've never seen them involve physical removal of the object.

I would love to know the proper rules for this.

It's my understanding that the ruling was incorrect.

They should never move checks bet on the layout to change how the dice landed.

The ruling should be that the dice read whatever number is closest to being face up as they are positioned when they stop moving.

If the dice land in the house's bank, it's a clear no roll. But landing on player bets should be valid rolls, and the closest number to face up should be called.

Quote: sodawater

It's my understanding that the ruling was incorrect.

They should never move checks bet on the layout to change how the dice landed.

The ruling should be that the dice read whatever number is closest to being face up as they are positioned when they stop moving.

If the dice land in the house's bank, it's a clear no roll. But landing on player bets should be valid rolls, and the closest number to face up should be called.

Agreed.

At Caesars a few years ago, there was a "bad call" that resulted in a seven out, and the players went on "strike." The table was full and no player would pick up the dice to be the next shooter. The stalemate, as it was explained to me, lasted almost a half hour. The decision was not reversed, and no player would shoot. Then one by one the players picked up their chips and left.

Its simple: imagine an ice cube in the form of the obstacle, in this case two stacks of chips. As the ice cubes melt, which side eventually will come upwards. It presupposes an imaginative but honest crew.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Agreed.

At Caesars a few years ago, there was a "bad call" that resulted in a seven out, and the players went on "strike." The table was full and no player would pick up the dice to be the next shooter. The stalemate, as it was explained to me, lasted almost a half hour. The decision was not reversed, and no player would shoot. Then one by one the players picked up their chips and left.

I was the only 'Don't' player at the table. The shooter was standing at the opposite end of the table from where I was standing. He established a point and a few tosses later one of the dice landed against some chips right in front of me. The dealer called "7 out". Before the die was picked up all the players started screaming that it was the wrong call. They called the pitboss over and he looked at the die and changed the call and said "NO ROLE". This made everyone happy except me.

I was standing next to the pitboss and said "You know that was a 7 out". He said "I know". He then told the dealer to pay my Don't Pass bet to me. I don't know if the shooter made his point or not because when they paid me, I picked up my bet and left the table.

Quote: FatGeezus

I was standing next to the pitboss and said "You know that was a 7 out". He said "I know". He then told the dealer to pay my Don't Pass bet to me. I don't know if the shooter made his point or not because when they paid me, I picked up my bet and left the table.

I would have stayed, but I know what you mean: if they are making "popularity" calls rather than what is right, why should you play there? At least you properly got paid on your Don't Pass bet so they were doing the right thing by you even though they were trying to please all the others.

It is the stickman's job to call the number. He should have done his job and been the judge. The pitboss is the Court of Appeal.

In the case where the Appeals Court paid the Don't, he was trying to keep everybody happy.

Quote: FleaStiff

Its simple: imagine an ice cube in the form of the obstacle, in this case two stacks of chips. As the ice cubes melt, which side eventually will come upwards. It presupposes an imaginative but honest crew.

Is there a rule book anywhere that formalizes this or did you just learn from experience?

sodawater and AlanMendelson are incorrect by industry standards. An honest crew would have "melted away" the chips to show the correct result.

Quote: FleaStiff

Its simple: imagine an ice cube in the form of the obstacle, in this case two stacks of chips. As the ice cubes melt, which side eventually will come upwards. It presupposes an imaginative but honest crew.

Quote: randomperson

Is there a rule book anywhere that formalizes this or did you just learn from experience?

FleaStiff's explanation is the textbook and standard craps dealer school teachings.

Remember, there are basically no Craps rules, laws, specifications or regulations in Nevada. Anything goes in the Wild Wild West of Las Vegas.

Quote: Bohemian

Remember, there are basically no Craps rules, laws, specifications or regulations in Nevada. Anything goes in the Wild Wild West of Las Vegas.

And just as in the Wild West movies, a shoot out could result in a whole new crop of people being in town. Now its more the poor economy that could mean all the experienced craps dealers got fired.

Quote: FleaStiff

And just as in the Wild West movies, a shoot out could result in a whole new crop of people being in town. Now its more the poor economy that could mean all the experienced craps dealers got fired.

True, and the new dealer unions are making back room deals with the Corporate casinos to help push out the older more experienced dealers and their hefty paychecks and benefit packages, with the likes of 1:20 shifts instead of 1 hour shifts and worse commissary and medical benefits. (Just so the unions can get their foot in the door, then they can improve those items slowly in the future so it looks like they are working for their due paying members.)

Quote: AlanMendelson

At Caesars a few years ago, there was a "bad call" that resulted in a seven out, and the players went on "strike." The table was full and no player would pick up the dice to be the next shooter. The stalemate, as it was explained to me, lasted almost a half hour. The decision was not reversed, and no player would shoot. Then one by one the players picked up their chips and left.

What a colossal waste of time and loss of income up the casino.

Casinos need to wake up and realize that they are in a customer service industry. Make the customer happy and they'll happily hand over their cash.

If I were writing the rules, here's what my rule would be: in the very rare case where a die is leaning against two objects, and the melting ice concept is still unclear, make it player's choice. IE: Ask each player which way the die wil fall and pay / take that player's bets based upon their response. Then ask the next player. Etc.

The amount of money "lost" by such a decision is minimal and will be returned soon enough. Plus it buys good will and repeat customers.

Quote: cowboy

It is the stickman's job to call the number. He should have done his job and been the judge. The pitboss is the Court of Appeal.

In the case where the Appeals Court paid the Don't, he was trying to keep everybody happy.

There are times when the stickman can only see the other side of the die and doesn't know what is on the other side, so he will say "call it". The base dealer should be the one to call it at that time. The stickman is than "suppose" to knock that die as fast as he can out so nobody else can question it.

Now back to where that die landed...... Was it suspended in the air between the 2 bets? If not... Than I don't see how you can move one stack and have it land on one side, remove another stack and it will fall on another side. It is leaning for a reason.... The die is always called on the number opposite of what it's leaning on.... 9 times out of 10 .... It's a SEVEN OUT ...... Don't ask me how or why.... It just is

Its not a polling situation. The crew is there to make the call... and should make a fair call.

One Boxman was very fair when he noticed the two pucks at each end of the table were on different numbers meaning that "The Point" was indicated as being two separate numbers... he asked the alert players, resolved the issue ... but offered anyone who felt differently a chance to have that "wrong" number as his point if he spoke up now.

Keep the game moving but its the crews job to make the decision and the Box's job to insure that decision is the final one and a fair one. No voting.