DI just one die, not both

I've been a casual craps enthusiast for about three years and have had a lot of fun and met some interesting people at the places I've been (primarily PA and AC). For the record I'm a random shooter and don't utilize any DI techniques. I've been a guest lurker, but finally registered today.

On the subject of dice control and dice influence, I've seen a majority of the discussion on increasing the prevalence of the 7 on the come out, reducing the 7 after the point which makes perfect sense. There appears to be some difference in the community of whether this can actually be achieved, even to the point where DI shooters may actually be increasing the occurrence of a 7 unintentionally.

Driving home last night have a decent win (+120% my BR), I was thinking about the potential of influencing just one die, and not both, and not by banned methods of sliding, not hitting the wall with both dice, etc. While this in theory may not decrease the prevalence of the seven, it would increase the prevalence of other numbers, potentially inside numbers.

I'm really just posting this out-loud and really don't have an answer. But this is likely the best place to kick some ideas around.

- TB

In theory, one die not hitting the pyramids might at least keep the heat off attempts to DI.

One die short-rolling, as opposed to avoiding the pyramid only, and which I often do, is only going to pass for so long without getting a squawk.

One thing I have looked at is that if the one die stays on axis, the 1 and 6 being the axis, the combinations possible with the other die being random are:

2 face up resulting in 3,4,5,6,7,8

3 f.u. & 4,5,6,7,8,9

4 f.u. & 5,6,7,8,9,10

5 f.u. & 6,7,8,9,10,11

24 possible combinations instead of 36 [please note the one die must stay on axis]

the 7 comes up 4/24 still 16.67% !! I have quit using "one die short rolling" to try and decrease the 7 coming up.

Quote:

it would increase the prevalence of other numbers, potentially inside numbers.

Correct, the 6 and 8 increasing to 16.67% also for example


PS: bear in mind I do this for fun, not really believing in it.
PPS: hasty posting meant mucho edits, sorry

Quote: toolboxnj

On the subject of dice control and dice influence, I've seen a majority of the discussion on increasing the prevalence of the 7 on the come out, reducing the 7 after the point which makes perfect sense. There appears to be some difference in the community of whether this can actually be achieved, even to the point where DI shooters may actually be increasing the occurrence of a 7 unintentionally.

Driving home last night have a decent win (+120% my BR), I was thinking about the potential of influencing just one die, and not both, and not by banned methods of sliding, not hitting the wall with both dice, etc. While this in theory may not decrease the prevalence of the seven, it would increase the prevalence of other numbers, potentially inside numbers.

Let P(1), P(2), ..., P(6) be the probabilities of rolling 1, 2, ..., 6 on the "influenced" die; keep in mind that the sum = 1.
If the influenced die roll is 1, the probability that the pair is 7 = the probability that the fair die is 6 = 1/6.
If the influenced die roll is 2, the probability that the pair is 7 = the probability that the fair die is 5 = 1/6.
...
If the influenced die roll is 6, the probability that the pair is 7 = the probability that the fair die is 1 = 1/6.
The total probability of rolling a 7 = P(1) x 1/6 + P(2) x 1/6 + ... + P(6) x 1/6 = 1/6 x (P(1) + P(2) + ... + P(6)) = 1/6.

Thus, no matter how you influence one die, if the other die's roll is fair, the probability of rolling a 7 remains 1/6.

I think the least that you can do if you are going to theorize that there is some Martian affecting one die is to give the Martian a little playmate and let him affect the other die. It ain't the shooter whats doing anything. it ain't the condition of the die after minimal use, its all in the eye of the beholder.

well that is not entirely accurate.
If you use the hardway set that is lets say a pair of 5/s on top with a pair of 4's pointing back at you.
If you keep either the right or left die on axis... that is a 5,4,3,2 and the other goes off axis with
a 1 or 6 there is no way to make a 7, so in effect you could throw forever without making a 7.

As i have mentioned on here before, that is a period where many people working on
dice control have some of their longest rolls. I had 4 - 50 or more rolls in a 12 month period and 3
that were 49. As my axis control got better i have had fewer and only had 1 49 in the past 6 months.

For me atleast i expect to have fewer long rolls, but hope to have alot more 8-12 rolls with 4 or
more 6 & 8's ...

I wish i could always keep just one die on axis... but i have no idea how to do that.

dicesitter

I hear you, dicesitter.

I dug a little deeper last night and I'm skeptical of how someone can stay on axis on a consistent basis. The issue is the back wall which, if both dice hit, would contribute to a high degree of randomness. Unfortunately for those looking to make the time investment in the DI/DC space, there simply isn't enough of the slow motion video to where we can see two on-axis dice hitting the back wall and effectively staying on axis by a skilled shooter. The primary evidence offered to support DI/DC is anecdotal. I'm an auditor by profession and we generally don't rely on inquiry only, but rather a combination of inquiry, observation, inspection and re-performance. Even if both dice remain on axis, there is still the double pitch and back wall to contend with.

The way I thought of today would be more of a tumbling roll where the dice would hit the base of the wall at the right speed where the wall absorbs most of the remaining energy (not all like a slide) which would decrease randomness. I'm sure it's not an original thought, but I'm just probing before I make a significant time investment in building a practice rig and training my shot.

I practice extremely good single-die influence whenever I bet the don't, and a point is established. When I am shooting in this situation, I usually manage to get the first die to stop on a number that makes a 7-out possible. I can achieve this close to 100 percent of the time.

Quote: sodawater

I practice extremely good single-die influence whenever I bet the don't, and a point is established. When I am shooting in this situation, I usually manage to get the first die to stop on a number that makes a 7-out possible. I can achieve this close to 100 percent of the time.

You realize every face on a die can add up to 7 with 2 dice, if the other die is not controlled?

So you *have* been hitting 100%! [g]

Quote: odiousgambit

You realize every face on a die can add up to 7 with 2 dice, if the other die is not controlled?

Well, except for the 10% of the time I send the dice right off the table...