Books on Craps

This is my first post. I think this is a great forum. I used to play slots but I have been enjoying craps instead. My husband has played craps for a long time and I wanted to join him. I must admit that I discovered I don't like to be on the same craps table with him so we usually play at different tables. I think this has helped with our comps.

I've wanted to play smarter and that is why I've been reading this forum for some time, though I only recently joined. I do get confused sometimes with the different views.

Is there a really good book on craps? What do you think is the best book on craps? What are the worse books on craps? Why?

If you know of several books on craps, then maybe you could rank them by listing the 3 best books and the 3 worst books.

I am wondering if there is going to be a consensus of opinion on this forum and many people will agree on what are the best and worst books.

I hope you will tell us why you think a book is good or bad. But just listing the book is better than nothing. I've looked at Amazon but I don't trust those reviews. I have more faith in what people on this forum has to say.

I did a search on this forum and did not find any other threads that discussed books on craps. Maybe there is and I don't know how to find it. If so, you can refer me to that other thread by providing the link.

It is good to finally post something here. I hope to join in some of the discussions.

To be perfectly honest, you really don't ne

But I like books. :-)

I have learned a lot from Wizard's site. I've even read many of the older Ask the Wizard columns. I also think reading this forum has help me a lot.

I was hoping there are good books to supplement what the Wizard has to say and also be told about the bad books to avoid.

Quote: crapswoman

I must admit that I discovered I don't like to be on the same craps table with him so we usually play at different tables. I think this has helped with our comps.

Most couples find it helps with the comps and their marriage to play at different tables.

>Is there a really good book on craps?
A book? With most web sites a short summary of the rules is best.
I'd suggest: easy.vegas nextshooter.com VegasMadeEasy.com
And some time on these free practice craps games such are available at many sites including here.

I'm told one of the most entertaining books on craps is a short novella only available on ebay but I can't remember the details.

One woman wrote a book in which she appears to have made several false claims about her craps play and craps employment.

I don't think the books will be all that helpful.

i guess i have about every book or video ever done on craps and by many authors, however i would certainly
get Cutting Edge Craps and Casino Craps by Frank Scoblete and Dominator.

Now alot of people on here question their books because they beleive in influencing the dice , and they make
a profit from that so they tie the two together.. that baffles me, if i am going to spend money for a book i would
rather buy a book from people that have actually used what they write about... and make money.

In most aspects of life if we want the answer we go to the experts.... seems to me craps is the same, these guys
are experts... and as an aside.... i have seen they both throw, they practice what they preach.


Dicesetter

Wasn't there a famous gaming author on this site recently? Something about a captain.......

Crapswoman, I can only tell you that the book I got the most out of was John Patrick's book "Advanced Craps."

There's a lot of info in those pages; just don't take offense at his writing style / comments.

A craps classic would have to be "Scarne on Dice" by John Scarne.

Quote: crapswoman

But I like books. :-)

The reason why I'd avoid books is because explaining the rules of the game and listing the House Advantage for each bet doesn't take very long. So in order to be longer than a few pages, most books will probably include a craps "system" that the author advocates (which, IMHO, is useless).

The most important thing to know is that the best bets are: Pass/Don't Pass, Come/Don't Come, and (if you feel like getting a little more aggressive) placing the 6 & 8.

Play the passline for the table minimum, take single-odds...period
No other way to play that will give you the best shot at breaking close to even in the long run...also, maximize time on table.
Caution: this "strategy" can get very boring...but your pocketbook will thank you.
Craps is for entertainment only...so why not be "entertained" as cheap as possible.

Quote: TIMSPEED

Play the passline for the table minimum, take single-odds...period
No other way to play that will give you the best shot at breaking close to even in the long run...also, maximize time on table.
Caution: this "strategy" can get very boring...but your pocketbook will thank you.
Craps is for entertainment only...so why not be "entertained" as cheap as possible.

cheaply. It's cheaply TIMSPEED. Gawd!!!! LOL.

If you told me I had to get rid of all my craps books but one, the Scarne on Dice is the one that I would keep. But not as a reference for how to play the game. This book is rich with history about the game and gives you more information than the others.

Many craps books are trying to sell you on a way of thinking when you play the game.

The best way to think when you play the game is "YAY I WON."

Don't make any stupid bets (consult the edge per roll reference of the Wizard in order to navigate this pitfall).

Make random bets and have fun. Even if you eventually want to get more serious about increasing the possibility of winning, your time would be more wisely spent thinking about your 401k/ira/etc investment allocation and/or balance.

Just have fun when you play craps is my advice. Be patient, and bet max odds and work max odds more often before making any other bets. Whether on the do side or the don't side, just take all your free bets before you bet anything else and make sure you don't bet more than you can lose at any moment.

I think I was misunderstood about my reasons for wanting to know your opinions about books on craps.

I know how to play! I also have a pretty good understanding of the basic math and house edges, and about playing the passline and come with odds.

However, I am interested in knowing **more details** about the game from those who have devoted time to the game and who have written well about the game--and avoid wasting my time on books that are not well written or that includes bad advice. I've checked a few books out of the library, and it seems most of the books are pretty bad. IMHO. I really do not have a good opinion of the stuff written by John Patrick, for example.

Just a few minutes ago I saw another thread started about a book by Tom Brietling. It sounds like this book is not getting good reviews from this forum. But this is what I am talking about in asking my general questions about good and bad books on craps.

I am interested in learning more about what goes on behind the scenes. How the casino manages the game and how casinos rate and comp players, etc.

I am interested in understanding more about the math and **exactly** why betting systems don't work and why money management systems don't work. I know they don't work. I am looking for a book that explains this in detail.

I am interested in reading more about such things a expected value (EV) and variance and risk of ruin, etc. Also trends and statistics as it pertains to craps.

I want to know more about Chi-squared analysis and p values.

I will give you one small example: I read on this forum about house edges, but then people talk about per bet or per roll. In this example, I know the math formulas and how the different house edges are arrived at. I'm not a blond :-) This is explained on Wizard's site. But it seems some people on this forum believe in one way of looking at things based on the math and other people use math to approach the game differently.

Is there a good book or source (other than this forum!) that explains the math so that I can recognize if some math analysis is reliable and other math analysis is faulty?

I thought there might be a book that is considered **definitive** on the game of craps beyond the basics. Or more likely a list of several **definitive** books on various topics about the game of craps.

I really appreciate the advice!

I'll tell you what: not really. This forum goes far beyond any book in terms of details like that.

Books are generally one person's perspective on the game.

This forum encourages debate, and as a result you get a lot more details.

In some ways, much of those details are noise. But if you want more details, just use the search function on this forum on things you don't already know.

I recently published some data for crapless craps including the edge per roll. I could not find that information anywhere, and I would be surprised if it were in any book.

This is absolutely a detail, and there others, that are too small for any book in general.

I agree with Ahigh. I doubt you'll find all of that information in any book.

Also, FWIW, I totally agree with you about most books out there. Garbage.

Demango.

was not this comment from the guy thats thinks i throw less 6/1 1/6 because of dice bias...........
..............???????

Dicesetter

Ahigh I am trying to be nice, so i am not even going to answer that comment that you feel
it is better for a new person to just listen to you instead of all the good books and
video's on craps....

If you are new into craps, get the real deal from experts... not the so called experts on
these pages.


Dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

Demango.

was not this comment from the guy thats thinks i throw less 6/1 1/6 because of dice bias...........
..............???????

Dicesetter

Yes, more noise and details.



Sunflowers, puppy paws, and yes, dice "sitters" as well. What book tells you the difference between a dice sitter and a dice setter?

The OP clarified that she's not a new player.

Quote: dicesitter

Ahigh I am trying to be nice, so i am not even going to answer that comment that you feel
it is better for a new person to just listen to you instead of all the good books and
video's on craps....

If you are new into craps, get the real deal from experts... not the so called experts on
these pages.

I am not really "new" to the game of craps. Just new to posting on this forum.

I've been lurking in the background for a long time reading the forum.

I find the various opinions and comments expressed on this forum to be very helpful. Really. For example, I appreciate the input from MathExtremist and also goatcabin (Alan Shank). There are others. I also like it when someone from the casino side weighs in with a comment.

But it is hard to tell which ones on the forum are "experts" sometimes.

And some of the posts like the photo from Ahigh just now is confusing, to say the least. What is that photo supposed to mean?

I even listened to Ahigh's interview. Even though I liked some of the things he said, I thought it was curious that he is considered an "expert."

Some of Ahigh's posts go on and on without saying anything. It's like my teenage son--talks all the time about nothing--though I still love him. Other Ahigh posts are disjointed to the point that I don't know what he is trying to convey. He has posted photos of his chips and his comps for a meal (and also the meal itself!) as if that is supposed to impress me. It doesn't. (And it was a very modest or inexpensive meal at best.)

Ahigh recites the details of his craps sessions. I like hearing about other people's experiences at the craps tables when there is something to be learned or something that happens that is impressive. But after reading about Ahigh's craps sessions, I often want to ask, "and your point?"

I will concede that Ahigh spends a lot of time pursuing subjects related to the game of craps. But most of it is "busy work" that is faulty and does not lead anywhere or will ultimately serve no purpose. Again, IMHO. But if this is how Ahigh wants to spend his time, then that is fine by me. I am sure there are things that I like to do that other people question.

There are a few times when I read something from Ahigh that is helpful or I learn something new. But not often.

I don't think the way Ahigh plays and bets is real smart, in my opinion. From a money-making aspect. Just my opinion.

But then I remember Ahigh saying a few months ago that he does not gamble for income, but only does it for fun and that he is not playing craps to win money. So that explains it.

Sorry this is off the subject of books on craps.

she would like to get some decent information... why not help her.... that is what she is here for,
she sure wont get it from biased dice research when she will never shoot with the same dice
studied, she wont get it from Ahigh who could not find a controlled shot if his life depended on it,
she wont get it from some of the other rude people on here.

I would find another forum where people are not so rude and are more willing to help, rather than
trying to place another feature in their owns hats.

Gman

Wow. Well, I'm speechless. Let dicesitter be your guide, then, woman.

Quote: Ahigh

Wow. Well, I'm speechless. Let dicesitter be your guide, then, woman.

Let conscience be your guide, sucka!
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=DOZzNOkcEgM

Quote: Ahigh

Wow. Well, I'm speechless. Let dicesitter be your guide, then, woman.

When you refer to me as "woman" like that, was that your way of putting me down in some back-handed way?

I asked sincerely about definitive books on craps--and on craps subjects that I mentioned I am interested in. You said there aren't any good books (other than one person's opinion) and I should rely on this forum instead. I responded, basically, that it is hard to tell the experts from the non-experts.

You hold yourself out as an expert. I commented. I did not think I was vicious. Sorry if I offended you.

I cannot believe for a second you are "speechless."

If I am the only one who thinks this way about you, Ahigh, then I owe you a double apology.

We like it when gals post here. Welcome.

Regarding books, I think the best you could get would be one that has some craps history. Avoid totally any that tell you "how to win at craps" or promote a betting system.

Be sure and check out the Wizard's videos on Craps and learn about getting the short-stick treatment and how to avoid it!
https://wizardofodds.com/video/

Ummm, what does your husband do at the table that bugs you?

Quote: crapswoman

When you refer to me as "woman" like that, was that your way of putting me down in some back-handed way?

I asked sincerely about definitive books on craps--and on craps subjects that I mentioned I am interested in. You said there aren't any good books (other than one person's opinion) and I should rely on this forum instead. I responded, basically, that it is hard to tell the experts from the non-experts.

You hold yourself out as an expert. I commented. I did not think I was vicious. Sorry if I offended you.

I cannot believe for a second you are "speechless."

If I am the only one who thinks this way about you, Ahigh, then I owe you a double apology.

I'll let others recommend books for you. I did not intend to offend you.

I do, however, recommend AGAINST studying "dice control" if you want to just have fun playing the game.

Quote: odiousgambit

Ummm, what does your husband do at the table that bugs you?

My husband is very conservative in how he bets, but not in the amounts he bets. He plays with higher chip denominations than I am comfortable with. Though he wins a lot, it makes me nervous watching him. I'd rather he just hand over the winnings to me when he's finished.

Quote: odiousgambit

Be sure and check out the Wizard's videos on Craps

I have watched the videos. They are very good. Thanks Wizard!

But what if you want to go to a more advance level of understanding of the game of craps? That is why I asked about books or other sources.

Thanks for your advice on avoiding books that only promote a betting system. I agree with that.

Quote: dicesitter

I would find another forum where people are not so rude and are more willing to help, rather than
trying to place another feature in their owns hats. Gman

In that line, I'd recommend Craps Forum. http://www.crapsforum.com/. It's a good conversational site & has a General Discussion, Beginner's Zone, and Advanced Craps sections. Nothing against this site; just giving an alternative. Anyway, the OP is obviously beyond the craps basics. I like books, too have three, including Scarne on Dice & have ordered a fourth. Both this site & Craps Forum have posts that cite books that they think are valuable. I do avoid Scoblete's books, due his, well, bias re: DI. I'm a random shooter & will always be. He's a good writer & has many good things to say other than that, so I visit his Golden Touch Craps website from time to time.

The OP wants to understand more about the math of craps, & Wikipedia is a good resource. I suggest she search "Probability," "Statistics," etc. These articles have links to other concepts within their discussions. She has mentioned "Variance," "Expected Value," etc. they're in Wikipedia, too. She can go as shallow or deep as she wants.

The book Darwin Ortiz on Casino Gambling has an excellent chapter on craps. it is available used on Amazon for a penny + shipping.

Do not make the mistake of buying any Scoblete books -- Probably one of the worst gambling writers ever.

Quote: crapswoman

But what if you want to go to a more advance level of understanding of the game of craps? That is why I asked about books or other sources.

That is why I suggested you read Patrick's book, "Advanced Craps."

Yes, he is an innumerate, chauvinistic blowhard, but that particular book is filled with a lot of useful info and suggested methods of play.

Pass line, don't pass, place betting, hedging: it is all laid out.

Tough to cut through all of his BS as you read it, though.

no i am not good enough to guide anyone, that is why there are books and videos
by experts.

She asked a simple question... are there any books that will help that have good
information...... there is and that is fairly basic.. why not not just give her
an answer...... why all the nonense????

You would think this forum is for kids not adults

gman

Quote: dicesitter

You would think this forum is for kids not adults

Lead by example, English professor.

Quote: crapswoman

But it is hard to tell which ones on the forum are "experts" sometimes.

Haha...that is very, very true.

Quote: Beethoven9th

Haha...that is very, very true.

That's what makes it fun.

Why waste your time? Timspeeds strategy is to just stand for several hours at the table and play minimum bet. That is not the way to play. There are many ways to play Craps. I WOUILD SAY PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. The more practice you get at the table the more ways to bet you will learn as you observe the game . Just play and if you see you are getting killed just hang for a bot and observe you do not have to bet to observe the game. I often stand there and observe and play it off in my head what I would bet and see how it goes. learn from experience. Going the safe cheap strategy that Timspeed offered is not the answer either because eventgually standing for hours at the table will give way to fatugue and at that point you will not make educated bets.

Somehow I can not believe that Timspeed plays this way. It has been noted that Timspeed usually plays max odds or 10 flat & 30 odds somethin like that . So why Timspeed woudll mislead you I know not.

Quote: sevenout77

I can not believe that Timspeed plays this way

Quote: sevenout77

There are many ways to play Craps. I WOUILD SAY PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT.

The poor lady can't convince you chivalrous fellows that she is not looking for beginner advice on how to play, but what books might be good.

AMEN !!!! Someone finally told the truth and gave the CORRECT information here. Best I heard yet. Take it and run with it. Thank Yas

Even if you eventually want to get more serious about increasing the possibility of winning, your time would be more wisely spent thinking about your 401k/ira/etc investment allocation and/or balance.

I would say to that go to the nearest Library and find the section that contains books on CRAPS and randomly choose. Enjoy reading. :)

Quote: odiousgambit

The poor lady can't convince you chivalrous fellows that she is not looking for beginner advice on how to play, but what books might be good.

I guess because I am a woman, people assume I am a beginner. And if not a beginner, then I must be someone who does not understand the game.

I thought maybe when I posted my earlier remarks and criticisms about Ahigh that I was going to be dumped on and be accused of not knowing what I'm talking about. No one has, so maybe some people do agree with me or at least think I am not a dumb blond.

And I am not blond. :-)

Quote: crapswoman

I guess because I am a woman, people assume I am a beginner. And if not a beginner, then I must be someone who does not understand the game

No, if you were a guy, I would have given the same reply based on the original post.

I like books also.
"the person who can read and doesn't is no better off than one who can't read" Unknown author?
I almost chimed in earlier to agree with MrV. Scarne, is the foremost author on craps and most books
since are all a rehash of what he wrote. Since V, Ahigh gave a thumbs up, and another poster?
Interesting to me, is Scarne wasn't a player but he taught craps to the GI's, casino's and other's.
He had a lot of input to the modern layout used today on craps table's.
His book on craps, "Scarne on Dice" was the go to source for years. Lots of interesting info.

Here are some book reviews that might help you out; there are a lot of books out there that are not worth reading. What I might call a piece of garbage others have different ideas on the books.

You should read everything you can on casino management and the math of the game. Then keep a very open mind on how the math of the game affects you when you are playing craps! You are always playing in the short term, never in the long term. Most of the time players are never at the tables long enough that the long run would ever affect them if they are not betting stupid bets!

Their long term could only be the one time they play craps, because they lost all their money and swear they will never play craps again!

http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum41.php&sid=5c782af873f37677ffbdb4c710b360ab

Quote: crapswoman

I know how to play! I also have a pretty good understanding of the basic math and house edges, and about playing the passline and come with odds.

I am interested in understanding more about the math and **exactly** why betting systems don't work and why money management systems don't work. I know they don't work. I am looking for a book that explains this in detail.

I am interested in reading more about such things a expected value (EV) and variance and risk of ruin, etc. Also trends and statistics as it pertains to craps.

I want to know more about Chi-squared analysis and p values.

I will give you one small example: I read on this forum about house edges, but then people talk about per bet or per roll. In this example, I know the math formulas and how the different house edges are arrived at. I'm not a blond :-) This is explained on Wizard's site. But it seems some people on this forum believe in one way of looking at things based on the math and other people use math to approach the game differently.

Is there a good book or source (other than this forum!) that explains the math so that I can recognize if some math analysis is reliable and other math analysis is faulty?

I think that other than learning some historical stuff about craps, and some info about casino operations and comps, you are needing a book about basic statistics rather than a book about craps or gambling. I would suggest looking for a Statistics 101 textbook from a college course. You can probably find one at the library, but if not, you should look at one of those bookstores that specializes in selling used college textbooks. Once you learn a little bit about statistics, i.e. bell curves,standard deviation, etc., I think that you will easily be able to apply what you learn to the game of craps, which is what you really seem to be looking for. If you have trouble understanding the textbook, or if you would rather have someone walk you through it, consider taking a course at a local community college. For a 101 level course this should not be very expensive.

In other words, I would not look to a gambler to teach you about statistics, but rather find a statistician to help you understand more about why gambling works (or doesn't work) the way it does.

Edit: You may also look for something akin to "statistics for dummies" at the local barnes and noble. You can flip through it to see if it looks like something that would explain statistics at a level you are comfortable with. If it is, you can probably find a used copy on ebay for a better price. Once you know a little about what the terms mean and what they show it would be easy to apply them to gambling and to determine who is full of bs when quoting some statistic or other.

Quote: skrbornevrymin

I think that other that learning some historical stuff about craps, and some info about casino operations and comps, you are needing a book about basic statistics rather than a book about craps or gambling. I would suggest looking for a Statistics 101 textbook from a college course. You can probably find one at the library, but if not, you should look at one of those bookstores that specializes in selling used college textbooks. Once you learn a little bit about statistics, i.e. bell curves,standard deviation, etc., I think that you will easily be able to apply what you learn to the game of craps, which is what you really seem to be looking for. If you have trouble understanding the textbook, or if you would rather have someone walk you through it, consider taking a course at a local community college. For a 101 level course this should not be very expensive.

In other words, I would not look to a gambler to teach you about statistics, but rather find a statistician to help you understand more about why gambling works (or doesn't work) the way it does.

Scarne on Dice is a good book for anyone interested not only in craps, but in the gambling world, in general. Scarne & my dad were about the same age. Scarne grew up on the East Coast. My dad grew up in North Dakota. Yet, Dad, I now realize, was a professional gambler at poker. He owned & sold many bars around Montana. After reading Scarne, I realized Dad owned those bars as a front for the real action, back in the days when MT was wide open. Scarne explained that many operators like Dad did not always gamble themselves, but dealt for those who wanted to & took a cut of the action. Our family made a good living, altho we moved far more than I wanted. If you want to know the mentality of gamblers, Scarne is the book for you & his discussion of craps, from the standpoint of one who knows the inside/out of the game, is worth reading.

Also, I now realize why a table crew flash their open hands, after handling any dice or money, for the Eye. It's good for players not necessarily to do the same thing, but making it clear to the crew that they are not palming any dice. This is what you learn by reading Scarne. It's incredible what Scarne could do w/ his hands. Just watch a video or two of his on YouTube.

What you must get used to is that Scarne was an older man when he wrote this book, and uses some terminology of gamblers of his time. He refers to some gamblers as "chumps," etc. He also expresses percentages as "9-1/11%, "16-2/3%." I think he means "9.111%," & "16. 23%," but I could be wrong.

As to the statistics, the OP can save a lot of time by searching Wikipedia, as I've suggested.

Quote: crapswoman

When you refer to me as "woman" like that, was that your way of putting me down in some back-handed way?

I asked sincerely about definitive books on craps--and on craps subjects that I mentioned I am interested in. You said there aren't any good books (other than one person's opinion) and I should rely on this forum instead. I responded, basically, that it is hard to tell the experts from the non-experts.

You hold yourself out as an expert. I commented. I did not think I was vicious. Sorry if I offended you.

I cannot believe for a second you are "speechless."

If I am the only one who thinks this way about you, Ahigh, then I owe you a double apology.

Scarne's Complete Guide to Gambling goes into some details about why systems do not work, if I recall correctly, he focuses much of his efforts on the Martingale, Reverse Martingale and Labouchere. I happen to enjoy math as relates betting systems, and I also enjoy playing systems for fun on the free WoO games...and there is no cheaper first-hand demonstration of why they don't work then playing free WoO games!

Anyway, Scarne's book as relates to systems is the most detail on systems that I have seen in a single book, so check out the library or go to Amazon and see if you can find Scarne's Complete Guide to Gambling. If you cannot, my copy is somewhat worn, but I'd be happy to ship it to you for you to borrow. I'd want it back sooner or later.

If there is any system you would simply like to discuss, feel free to start a new thread in the Betting Systems section of the Forum, and I'd be happy to entertain a discussion with you.

Finally, don't worry about AHigh calling you woman, just be glad he hasn't demanded you make him a sammich yet.

Quote: sevenout77

Going the safe cheap strategy that Timspeed offered is not the answer either because eventgually standing for hours at the table will give way to fatugue and at that point you will not make educated bets.

Yeah, because when I get tired, instead of going home and going to bed, I tend to color my Red Chips to Black and Parlaying the Any 7.


No offense, but, (eyeroll).

Seriously, I should imagine that very few people become as careless with fatigue as you seem to be describing.

Crapswoman


Thanks for asking about books on craps, it indicates you want to do what the rest of us want to do, that is
get better at this game.

Dont buy this craps offered by a number of people on this forum, they are the ones that are completely
one sided and only offer you information you already have.

think about this for a second..... no book ever writen by any human being on craps has ever changed
the odds and edges...none... no matter what book you read.... placing 6 OR 8 will cost you 1.52%,
placing a 5 or 9 will cost you 4%, and a field bet where they pay only double on a 2 or 12 will cost
you 5.56 % and even a 1$ any craps will cost you 11.11%.

Now several of the guys on here, most in fact will tell you only read the books that offer exacly the
same thing, some system of bets all of which "still" carry a house advantage, not a single one of which
is of any value to you beyond what you already know.

Now the Scoblete books are discreditied because he makes a profit off them, do they think the authors of
'the other books give their sales money to charity????? they charge you good money to give you the
same odds and edges you cant beat....that every other book gives you.

A book should offer you something you have not had before, an alternative, not one that you have to use,
but one to consider. The 5 count is a concept you wont get in other books, yet it is the only system
that allows you to play the game and cut down the money you place at risk by 57%. Dice control
whether proven or unproven is gives you the only chance at reducing some of those edges. Interestingly
enough several people on keep saying dice control may be possible, but no one can prove it to them.

You seem to like craps... that is great... get information from all angles, then make up your own mind.


Dicesetter

Quote: crapswoman

I am interested in knowing **more details** about the game from those who have devoted time to the game and who have written well about the game--and avoid wasting my time on books that are not well written or that includes bad advice.
...
I am interested in learning more about what goes on behind the scenes. How the casino manages the game and how casinos rate and comp players, etc.
...
I am interested in understanding more about the math and **exactly** why betting systems don't work and why money management systems don't work. I know they don't work. I am looking for a book that explains this in detail.
...
I thought there might be a book that is considered **definitive** on the game of craps beyond the basics. Or more likely a list of several **definitive** books on various topics about the game of craps.

From reading your comments, it is obvious you are not a beginner. It seems you want to become a true student of the game--beyond a mere casual player who approaches the table primarily for fun and excitement (though there is nothing wrong with that).

I applaud you (and anyone else) for wanting to learn all that you can.

I do not believe there is that one "definitive" book on craps that you have asked about and are seeking. Therefore, you must go about acquiring your "advance" education from a variety of sources. In this regard, I agree with a number of the comments and replies that have been posted so far in response to your original question:

1. Continue to rely on this Forum--recognizing, as you have stated, that there are both experts and non-experts who are quick with their opinions and beliefs. And there are people who may call themselves experts who provide advice that is questionable at best. But you seem to already have a good understanding of this. (Dare I mention your comments about Ahigh.)

2. Visit other websites that are devoted to the game of craps and also to advantage play. The same problem will exist--pseudo or pretend experts with flawed and unreliable advice--but sorting this out comes with time and experience with seeking answers from other sources.

3. Use the Wizard of Odds website as your foundation for a clear and concise explanation of the basic mathematics of the game of craps.

4. Use wikipedia and google searches for specific subjects which are of interest to you.

Now to the books that you asked about. (Since I also like books.)

Books about the Game of Craps

I think most books specifically about the game of craps are not to be recommended. As was mentioned, the basics of craps can be explained in a few short pages. In order to fill out the balance of the book often requires the author to adopt or embrace "systems" about how to win at craps. This is the "hook" for the publisher in selling the book. Such "systems" are to be avoided. Which means, generally, such books should be avoided.

Still, I have found that in reading many of these books, I may pick up one little nugget or comment or thought that is helpful to a more thorough understanding of craps. It may be that the author explained something that I already knew, but he did it in a new or better way. It may be that an author offers something that serves as an affirmation or confirmation of my way of thinking. It may be that the author states something that is absurd and without foundation, and this also serves as a basis for better knowledge of the game. In all cases, reading many of these books will contribute to better critical thinking about the game of craps.

But I would not recommend most of these books on craps as authoritative or definitive, even though reading them will give you a more rounded and thorough understanding of the game and how many other players approach the game.

Without listing specific books on craps (many of which I own) and without offering reviews of these books--since it would be a very long list and this post is already lengthy--I would offer the following comments:

1. superrick, who is a member of this forum, has posted a link (in his response to your question) to another website where he has included many of his own reviews of books on craps. superrick is to be commended--for not only reading all these books but also taking the time to submit his comments on each book. With all due respect to superrick, I personally do not agree with many of his favorable reviews--books that he highly recommends are often books that I reject. But that is my opinion. You (and others) may agree with superrick's view of some of these books. Nevertheless, I refer you to his post because he does present you with a list of craps books.

2. Again, with due respect to others who have praised John Patrick's "Advanced Craps" I do not recommend Patrick's books as an instructive and good guide to the game. Nor do I recommend his videos. Simply go to youtube and check out some of his videos that are available there and his ridiculous remarks (such as "come bets are garbage"). Granted, Patrick is a published author of a number of gambling books. His books are some that may offer that one small nugget of helpful information--which may be hard to find with how he jumps around in his thinking--but for the most part, I am not impressed with what he writes and how he writes.

3. Frank Scoblete (as I am sure you know) is a prolific writer--both of books and articles on his website. Nevertheless, I would still put his books in the same category as most books on craps--many offer a system to play that cannot overcome the house edge and many include comments about related topics with which I do not agree. Between Patrick and Scoblete, if forced to make a choice, I would go with Scoblete. But with my apologies to Scoblete, that's not saying much. I do think you will find much more than "one small nugget of helpful information" in his books and they are worth reading for that reason. Scoblete's greater accomplishment--in my view--isn't so much that he has some incredible insight into the game of craps, but rather that he has published so many books and is viewed as an authority on the game. He is indeed a prolific writer. For that he, too, is to be commended. [And Frank, if you read this, even though I often do not agree with things you have written, I still like reading your posts on this Forum and I continue to read your articles on your website.]

4. There are a several books on dice influence and precision shooting. Since this is a subject that I do not believe in, I would not presume to comment on these books.

5. I do want to mention Malcom Jay's "50 Years at the Craps Table" (2001, Barricade Books). Not because it is great or because it offers special insight into the game. Indeed, the author really does not say much about his way of betting other than bet the passline and take full odds and sometimes bet the come with full odds. But I think it is a pleasant, non-offensive book that can be read quickly. What I like about the book is that it is written by someone who obviously loves the game of craps.

The challenge with specific books on craps is sorting out the good from the bad. What I think is bad, someone else may find is good. I have no qualms with that. The more you read, then the more you will become critical and discriminating and reach your own conclusions.

That leaves us with books on the other related subjects that you, crapswoman, have expressed an interest. As opposed to books specifically on craps, I will offer a list of the following that I own and recommend (leaving out those that I do not recommend):

Books Related to Casino Management

Casino Operations Management, 2nd Edition
By Jim Kilby, Jim Fox, and Anthony F. Lucas
2004, Wiley

Casino Management: A Strategic Approach
By Kathryn Hashimoto
2008, Prentice Hall

Casino Gaming Methods: Games, Probabilities, and Controls
By David C. Williams and Kathryn Hashimoto
2009, Prentice Hall

Casino-Ology 2: New Strategies for Managing Games
By Bill Zender
2011, Huntington Press

Casino Financial Controls: Tracking the Flow of Money
By Steve Durham and Kathryn Hashimoto
2009, Prentice Hall

Casino Security and Gaming Surveillance
By Derk J. Boss and Alan W. Zajic
2010, Auerbach Publications

Books Related to Mathematics of Gaming and/or Craps

The Theory of Gambling and Statistical Logic, Second Edition
By Richard A. Epstein
2012, Academic Press

The Mathematics of Gambling
By Edward O. Thorp
1985, Lyle Stuart
--includes a good section on money management

The Mathematics of Games and Gambling, Second Edition
By Edward Packel
2006, Mathematical Association of America

Finding the Edge: Mathematical Analysis of Casino Games
Edited by Olaf Vancura, Judy Cornelius and William R. Eadington
2000, University of Nevada

The Mathematics of Poker
By Bill Chen and Jerrod Ankenman
2006, ConJelCo
--this is devoted to Poker, but there are still some helpful information that can be applied to table games

The Compleat Strategyst: Being a Primer on the Theory of Games of Stategy
By J.D. Williams
1986, Dover
--more about Game Theory than about the mathematics of gaming

Miscellaneous Books Related to Gaming

These may be of some interest.

Whale Hunt in the Desert
by Deke Castleman
2004, Huntington Press
--a book about Superhost Steve Cyr, and not really a book under the category of casino management

Jackpot!
by Robert L. Shook
2003, John Wiley & Sons
--subtitled "Harrah's Winning Secrets for Customer Loyalty"

Books (as well as his previous magazine columns) by Michael Konik include a number of stories of games and gamblers, specifically:

The Man with the $100,000 Breasts and Other Gambling Stories
1999, Huntington Press

Telling Lies and Getting Paid
2001, Huntington Press

***

I think this subject of "books on craps" is worthwhile and I was surprised to find that this has not been discussed before.

Good luck!

Wow, Jimbo, that is quite a post there. Kudos. You pretty much sum it up, though. There aren't really any SUPER GREAT books on craps at all.

Scarne on Dice is as close as it gets to the bible on craps.

i would stay away from dice setter or dice control books, its a myth (until proven otherwise) and a gimmick that authors push to make money off the books and not beating craps - which they claim to be able to do...yawn...

Quote: nezbit

i would stay away from dice setter or dice control books, its a myth (until proven otherwise) and a gimmick that authors push to make money off the books and not beating craps - which they claim to be able to do...yawn...

Right, but the Iron Cross is better than the passline according to this guy (see other comments in other threads about this from his post history). This leads us back to the comment about knowing who is an expert. You also seem to be an expert on myths as well. I also advise you to stay away from dice control, but not because it's a myth, but because it's a huge expenditure of your time resources and your time is better spent on other things.