Card Craps. Why do players care about throwing the dice?

I've only played card craps a few times in my life. I don't like it but sometimes it's a pleasant way to spend time in a casino... especially when you get lucky.

Friday night I stopped by Harrah's Rincon to use my free play at video poker (lost it) so I took a hundred bucks and bought in at a $5 card craps game. One shooter got lucky and the dice numbers he threw pointed to the cards with combinations that turned us into winners. He hit 4 fire bet numbers and was working on fifth (point of 4) and all together his roll lasted about 45 minutes. I colored up $901 after starting with $27 across, $5 pass with $20 odds. Lightning can strike.

But what I found strange, was that players take care in throwing the dice. Players even call out "throw the dice to show aces" and things like that, as if to indicate to the shooter that certain dice combinations will foretell winning combinations with the flipped over cards.

And when a shooter throws a good number or makes a pass, players will say "good shot" as if to say the shooter made the difference? Heck, when a pass is made, I say "good shuffle" or "let's give the automatic card shuffler a hand."

Of course I'm being overly cynical here but playing card craps is like playing roulette with no chance that you can influence the game.

What I always liked about traditional craps is that the fate of the game is in the hands of the shooter. With card craps the shooter is at the mercy of the automated card shuffler.

Ironically several of the "passes" made the other night came when the shooter threw 5-2 or 4-3 or 6-1 on the dice. It's gotten to the point where I don't look at the dice anymore. I stand stick right or stick left only so I can see the cards being flipped over by the dealer who is where the "boxman" would normally be.

Alan you know dam well why people like to throw Dice but, we get your point.

Yeah, I've played at Rincon NUMEROUS times. I do agree with you Alan that setting the dice or taking your time with them is of no value to the overall outcome. However I can understand why people do it, having seen it happen many times. I guess it is all purely psychological. Personally I just chuck em when I get em... I have noticed, even though it can probably be explained as superstition that when ever the stick man or card flipper changes the next roll seems to be a seven....has this been ur experience as well??

My experience has been -- and people will get a chuckle out of this -- that when the stickman changes at a real dice game either the point is made OR a horn number hits. I don't see the proverbial "7 out" as often as some claim.

Since I haven't played card craps that much I can't tell you about any "patterns" whether they be real or imagined. I just sat there chuckling to myself about how all of the shooters get "wrapped up" in taking their time throwing the dice.

When it was my turn I just picked em up and threw them in one motion hard enough that they hit the back wall and then I looked at the cards. I can't even tell you how my dice landed except when they said 5-2 I knew which cards were going to be turned over.

Quote: AlanMendelson

My experience has been -- and people will get a chuckle out of this -- that when the stickman changes at a real dice game either the point is made OR a horn number hits. I don't see the proverbial "7 out" as often as some claim.

Since I haven't played card craps that much I can't tell you about any "patterns" whether they be real or imagined. I just sat there chuckling to myself about how all of the shooters get "wrapped up" in taking their time throwing the dice.

When it was my turn I just picked em up and threw them in one motion hard enough that they hit the back wall and then I looked at the cards. I can't even tell you how my dice landed except when they said 5-2 I knew which cards were going to be turned over.

I agree with you that I do not follow the dice but immediate look to the cards.. While it is completely random it seems that they always seven out when the flipper or stick man changes during a strong roll n my experience

However , like you say. I do find it quite amusing when people take their time as if it has any difference with what ends up as a complete random occurrence

Why do players want to throw the dice..

Thats human nature for most people..... the world is made up of many kinds of people, but mostly it is
those that do, and those that dont and then complain about those that do.

If you have had your business for 35 years and have done well it makes since you would
play poker instead of slots because you feel you can have some imput. If you play craps
it would make sense you want to try to improve your throw because it can give you a better
chance. Does not mean that it does, but it feels that way.

Complaining about a DI is the same..... they admit some one may be able to do it, but you cant or i cant.
or you cant prove it, or he cant prove it... a silly game.. there are many things we all do that years ago
we did not think we could do.

Human nature..i think its a great thing, and i feel sorry for those that think things can not be done.

When i am playing craps i want the dice.....some times i win and some times i lose, i cant or dont give
a crap about proving anything to anyone. all i know is i win more often than i used to.

Dicesitter

Card craps, along with the Panda bets and dragon bets at bacc, is the worlds easiest game to count because they allow you to use pen and paper at the table. Additionally, window counting, if a csm is present, is the worlds laziest method counting, but, IMO, most accurate, for the casual counter, because you don't get as mentally tired.

If I was allowed to use pen and paper at a BJ table, I'd be a billionaire, a zillionaire! I'd be a greedy little duck.

I play card craps whenever I get the chance, but the +EV is so minor, meaning I expect to win like $5 an hour, that card craps is never worth a solo trip, just to play card craps.

This may seem paradoxical, but hypothetically, if a card craps table was next to a dice craps tables (which it will never happen bc card craps only exists in jurisdictions where dice are banned), then I'll always play the card craps bc I will always chose the +EV over a -EV game, even if the -EV game is more exciting; however, given the choice of two casinos in two different states, one having card craps with a +EV, and dice with a -EV, I will go play the dice game because I would never fly out just to play card craps. Most AP dice players are the same way (and by AP dice, I don't mean dice control, as I see no evidence that DC or DI exists, but to each his own on this issue).

Quote: klimate10

Card craps, along with the Panda bets and dragon bets at bacc, is the worlds easiest game to count...

I play card craps whenever I get the chance, but the +EV is so minor, meaning I expect to win like $5 an hour, that card craps is never worth a solo trip, just to play card craps.

What version of card craps do you play? At Rincon there is an automatic shuffler that reshuffles six red cards and six green cards for each and every roll. There is no way to count cards.

Morongo near Palm Springs used to deal cards (aces through six) from two shoes, and at that game it was possible to count. In fact, Morongo had no rule against recording the cards and players did keep track of the cards dealt. But the last time I played there was almost five years ago, and I heard that several years ago they went to a shuffle machine as well, so there was nothing to count.

Dang, Welcome back Klimate10!
We all thought you had been unfortunate in your home blackjack game...

Alan, the CSM is the easiest to count. There is a window of cards, in the chute, that allows for a count, which is why it's called the window count. For those unfamiliar, a CSM is a continuous shuffler machine, i.e., an automatic shuffler. I personally own a shufflemaster one2six shuffler, and I have taken out the sides and seen it operate internally. For a fact, as Steven from discount gambling states, there is a window of cards that are countable. Contrary to what many counters think, a CSM is very countable. While a CSM window count won't return big wins (I don't think any form of counting can return big long term wins), it will allow you to break even; my favorite gambling saying is, 'he gambles too much, for too little'.

For details, go to discountgambling.net.

And thanks Tim. I disappeared because I lost my entire bankroll at riviera playing their 1000x odds. I will disappear again in about a month, and then reappear next year with more reports.

What I always liked about traditional craps is that the fate of the game is in the hands of the shooter. With card craps the shooter is at the mercy of the automated card shuffler.

What I've always liked about ANY craps game aside from electronic craps is that all of the shooters as well as ALL players are AT THE MERCY OF THE DEALERS.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I've only played card craps a few times in my life. I don't like it but sometimes it's a pleasant way to spend time in a casino... especially when you get lucky.

Friday night I stopped by Harrah's Rincon to use my free play at video poker (lost it) so I took a hundred bucks and bought in at a $5 card craps game. One shooter got lucky and the dice numbers he threw pointed to the cards with combinations that turned us into winners. He hit 4 fire bet numbers and was working on fifth (point of 4) and all together his roll lasted about 45 minutes. I colored up $901 after starting with $27 across, $5 pass with $20 odds. Lightning can strike.

But what I found strange, was that players take care in throwing the dice. Players even call out "throw the dice to show aces" and things like that, as if to indicate to the shooter that certain dice combinations will foretell winning combinations with the flipped over cards.

And when a shooter throws a good number or makes a pass, players will say "good shot" as if to say the shooter made the difference? Heck, when a pass is made, I say "good shuffle" or "let's give the automatic card shuffler a hand."

Of course I'm being overly cynical here but playing card craps is like playing roulette with no chance that you can influence the game.

What I always liked about traditional craps is that the fate of the game is in the hands of the shooter. With card craps the shooter is at the mercy of the automated card shuffler.

Ironically several of the "passes" made the other night came when the shooter threw 5-2 or 4-3 or 6-1 on the dice. It's gotten to the point where I don't look at the dice anymore. I stand stick right or stick left only so I can see the cards being flipped over by the dealer who is where the "boxman" would normally be.

when ever the stick man or card flipper changes the next roll seems to be a seven
Of course they must clear the felt so as not to have to be concerned with the bets they were not there to set therefore would not recall. AFTERALL who doesn't like to set down to a clean table while dining. :)

Quote: Dreamer

Yeah, I've played at Rincon NUMEROUS times. I do agree with you Alan that setting the dice or taking your time with them is of no value to the overall outcome. However I can understand why people do it, having seen it happen many times. I guess it is all purely psychological. Personally I just chuck em when I get em... I have noticed, even though it can probably be explained as superstition that when ever the stick man or card flipper changes the next roll seems to be a seven....has this been ur experience as well??

Quote: AlanMendelson

What version of card craps do you play? At Rincon there is an automatic shuffler that reshuffles six red cards and six green cards for each and every roll. There is no way to count cards.

I believe klimate10 is referring to a patented game called Play Craps, which in the San Diego area is dealt at Viejas. It uses a single continuous shuffle machine containing 324 cards (or 264 depending on whom you ask), all of which are aces through sixes to mimic dice rolls. (Two cards come out of the single machine one after the other, and that represents the roll.)

Because cards are removed from the machine and not immediately put back into the machine, the odds are not representative of a real craps game. (For example, if the first card is a 3, there is now one less 3 in the machine, making the chances of the second card being a 3 slightly less than 1 in 6.)

As a result, a player can get a slight +EV in this game when betting the Don't.

You can pretty much count any CSM.

CSMs, in a card craps game, tend to favor the DONT bettor, and yes, you can get a very slight advantage when betting the DONT.

Do not play the pass line in a Card craps game. Unlike dice, where the dice have no memory, the next roll in card craps is dependent on previous outcomes, as previous outcomes determine the composition of the remaining cards. PASS line players tend to be punished more harshly than DONT players (credit for this research goes to Steven from discountgambling.net). The True odds on PASS line bets are not really true odds, once the distribution of remaining cards on the CSMs window are taken into account (again, credit to Steven from discountgambling.net).

The only annoyance you get from counting card craps is the same type of annoyance that you regularly get from other players when playing BJ (hitting soft 18, hitting 12 v 2,3, or surrender, "what! you surrender?! why are you here if you're not gambling?!) or 3CP (you're crazy! he's not playing the PP? what if he hits a SF? OMG!). When you pick up your 4,10 lay odds, you will have people laugh in your face or call you crazy/stupid when you would have won, if you hadn't picked up your odds. The effect is even more exaggerated because you are betting the DONT, and we all know how most players hate dark bettors.

No one has ever given me this type of shit, but I hear it from other AP players who count card craps.

Again, you will not get rich playing card craps, but you will play for free or make a little bit of money. AP players like me do not play to make money. I play AP style because I find it fun to try and beat the house for ten cents. Im like 99% certain that I am a long term losing player, it's just that I lose less.

Yeah, Rincon isn't a CSM; it's a 'fresh' independent double set of 1-6 cards.

Personally, I just enjoy throwing things at the table and amuse myself with the dice by trying to land them in specific places since they don't really matter. Or trying to take out as many stacks as possible without making it obvious.

I think card craps is great - at least at Viejas. The table is more like a black jack table and you get to sit down. In fact, I find it HILARIOUS that in most card craps games, without dice, that the casino still uses a normal craps table - with dice bumpers and all. That doesn't make sense AT ALL.

Quote: slackyhacky

I think card craps is great - at least at Viejas. The table is more like a black jack table and you get to sit down. In fact, I find it HILARIOUS that in most card craps games, without dice, that the casino still uses a normal craps table - with dice bumpers and all. That doesn't make sense AT ALL.

There are two reasons for this:

1. They want to give the impression that it is "real craps" which is why the California casinos have their own names for card craps such as "Califrornia Craps" or "Pala Craps" etc.

2. The Indian Casinos and the California poker rooms that offer card craps about 6 years ago tried to get the State Constitution changed through a ballot initiative that would have allowed the throwing of dice. While the casinos say publicly the idea has been abandoned, you know darn well they would still love the chance to have dice craps, just as the California poker casinos would love to add slot machines and break the oligopoly that the Indian Tribes have.

Alan, I assume the procedure at Rincon is that the two sets of 6 shuffled cards are placed face down until the dice throw, then the two cards in the positions indicated by each die are flipped up to resolve the bets.

Would the game be different if, after all bets are set, the cards were placed face up, giving the shooter a specific combination to "try" for? Theoretically, the facts that all bets were set before the cards were revealed, and the outcome of the dice throw is random, would not change the odds of the game at all, but wouldn't it be much more exciting?

Yes, that's correct.

Doing it that way might actually be an improvement; it would effectively eliminate the value of potentially biased dice since the values of the dice faces are randomized. I guess you might end up with people arguing that the bias is now rigged in such a fashion that the more likely combos have certain cards though.

I don't remember though-- does Rincon use real craps dice? I remember that they only use two pairs of dice, and Pala, which uses a different kind of abstraction layer, doesn't use real dice at all.

Quote: Venthus

I don't remember though-- does Rincon use real craps dice? I remember that they only use two pairs of dice, and Pala, which uses a different kind of abstraction layer, doesn't use real dice at all.

Real dice at Rincon, gaffed dice at PALA that make it impossible to roll a pair. I am an apologist for card craps. When done properly, like at Rincon, it works out just fine. The beauty of it is that you can see the "roll" results no matter where you are standing at the table plus there is an added bit of drama when they flip the cards over one at a time and maybe a second apart. Ohhh, the first card is a 1, my horn bet is alive..... etc. adding to the drama. For some reason, the Pala version is less satisfying.

I definately do not prefer card craps to regular craps, but it's not so bad. Besides, once you have 3 or 4 beers you won't even know the difference.

Barona uses dice to select two cards and the cards are dealt face up at its table so you can see what dice faces match what cards. I've never played there. But I called there after someone told me about this, and they confirmed that's how it is played at Barona.

Anyone been to Barona? I heard it's a very difficult, mountainous drive and I heard the ride is so treacherous they don't even serve alcohol there so they aren't blamed for traffic accidents.

One of my friends plays there when he comes down since he has family in the area; I'll hit him up for an opinion next time I see him. Anything in particular?

Is it worth the drive to play their craps game? I was told there are no exotic bets such as the fire bet. Just normal middle of the table bets.

What the Barona floorman said to me over the phone was interesting -- he said sometimes they will set the cards just like the dice -- one through 6.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Barona uses dice to select two cards and the cards are dealt face up at its table so you can see what dice faces match what cards. I've never played there. But I called there after someone told me about this, and they confirmed that's how it is played at Barona.

Anyone been to Barona? I heard it's a very difficult, mountainous drive and I heard the ride is so treacherous they don't even serve alcohol there so they aren't blamed for traffic accidents.

I can confirm that it is a mountain drive, but I wouldn't call it, "treacherous". The ad in the magazine makes it appear to be right off a major highway east of San Diego, but it is actually quite a few miles up in the hills. The problems really start when you leave the highway and have to drive through the reservation maintained road to the casino. I was told the dry casino is a tribal belief, not a liability CYA, but not by any authoritative source.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I was told the dry casino is a tribal belief, not a liability CYA, but not by any authoritative source.

Possibly true, but the fact that they serve alcohol in the steakhouse would seem to contradict that. Chumash in Santa Barbara also is dry but for the steakhouse.

Quote: bigfoot66

Possibly true, but the fact that they serve alcohol in the steakhouse would seem to contradict that. Chumash in Santa Barbara also is dry but for the steakhouse.

Hmm, could it be because the casino was open to 18 year olds, while the state minimum for alcohol service is 21? Having to card everyone would really be a bummer for the servers. Just a guess.

Morongo is open to 18 year olds for gambling and if you look young you get a wrist band for drinking. I always get the wrist band just so they don't have to card me. :-)

I just did some digging re: Barona and alcohol, and it turns out that they did have some problems with their liquor license. It is not a tribal custom.

How can tribes, as independent governments, have a separate set of laws regarding tobacco, and gambling, but not have control over their own alcohol regulations?

I went to Barona last night and I can confirm that the card craps is played with dice mapped to open face cards on the layout. In fact I watched a couple guys seven out and never saw them move or shuffle the cards.

Quote: bigfoot66

I went to Barona last night and I can confirm that the card craps is played with dice mapped to open face cards on the layout. In fact I watched a couple guys seven out and never saw them move or shuffle the cards.

Hmm, when do they put out new cards? Do they have different colored die that correspond to each set of six cards?

Huh. I wonder if you can request a reshuffle after every few tosses. If they just put it out and leave it for extended periods, it still leaves the argument of biased dice open. And it's even uglier if you request a reshuffle (after a throw) and they refuse.

I think they are just trying to cater to people that like the idea of the dice deciding the results of the game.

If the state legalities are such that dice are not supposed to be used to do this, (that's why they use cards, right?) then they are likely at risk for doing it this way.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Hmm, when do they put out new cards? Do they have different colored die that correspond to each set of six cards?

I assume the shooter can ask that they shuffle the cards but as I said I played 20 minutes and watched 3 shooters, in that time the cards were never shuffled. The dice were the same color and there was just one row of the 6 cards, so this means that in order to hit doubles you have to actually roll doubles.

Quote: bigfoot66

I assume the shooter can ask that they shuffle the cards but as I said I played 20 minutes and watched 3 shooters, in that time the cards were never shuffled. The dice were the same color and there was just one row of the 6 cards, so this means that in order to hit doubles you have to actually roll doubles.

Thanks for letting us know about this.

When I called there a few weeks back a floorman told me the cards are sometimes set as the faces on the dice -- one thru six -- so the cards would be the results of the dice. Did you see this? Or was it still jumbled even though the cards did not change?

I would love for a casino to "get around" the state laws by having the cards in the same positions as the dice.

That law needs to be changed. Several times I have made efforts online to start up interest in another proposition to change this part of the state constitution but I could never get enough support -- even from the casino people I contacted.

It's time for California to have real dice craps and real roulette (and not mystery card roulette).

Quote: AlanMendelson

It's time for California to have real dice craps and real roulette (and not mystery card roulette).

I don't have much interest in roulette so I never paid attention, but, outside of the obvious physical difference, is there any change from traditional roulette?

Quote: Venthus

I don't have much interest in roulette so I never paid attention, but, outside of the obvious physical difference, is there any change from traditional roulette?

With mystery card roulette, cards that correspond to the numbers on the layout (black 29, for example) are hidden in slots of a wheel. The wheel spins and settles on one position and that card is revealed. No ball is dropped by a dealer. Thats how the casinos get around the "no roulette wheel" part of the archaic California law.

But unlike craps, there's no player interaction or potential of control, so, as long the cards are in the same order as the wheel, there's no effective difference. Much like how if the faces are mapped accurately like at Barona, the end result is a true, valid game.

I suppose I might feel differently if I played roulette and not craps though.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Thanks for letting us know about this.

When I called there a few weeks back a floorman told me the cards are sometimes set as the faces on the dice -- one thru six -- so the cards would be the results of the dice. Did you see this? Or was it still jumbled even though the cards did not change?

I would love for a casino to "get around" the state laws by having the cards in the same positions as the dice.

When I was there the cards were "jumbled" and I never saw them changed. Again, I imagine that one could ask them to shuffle and I bet they would. At some point I would think that they would have to go through a shuffle procedure for regulatory purposes so intentionally setting the cards in any order would be dicey.

A couple of updates regarding craps at San Diego area Indian casinos:

Barona recently changed their rules regarding shuffling the cards and now shuffle (scramble might be a better term) after every ROLL. Players aren't very happy with the change. Before they were supposed to shuffle when the shooter crapped out. Not sure why they changed but I heard it was part of their tribal gaming agreement with the state.

Barona does sell alcohol downstairs in the restaurants. Residents were concerned about having gamblers drink and then drive the twisty road so it was agreed that Barona would only sell alcohol to customers that buy a meal. But there's a catch - downstairs is the Plaza Grill which is a little bistro type seafood place. I've been told that they will give you popcorn shrimp for free and that popcorn shrimp is considered a meal by California so if you order the free popcorn shrimp you can also drink alcohol. BTW the Barona Oaks Steakhouse is VERY good. Better than Ruth Chris' IMO.

The drive to Barona isn't that bad but the road can be dangerous particularly at night. It's 7 miles once you exit Highway 67 in Lakeside to the Casino. Combine some really bad slow drivers with really aggressive drivers and it can lead to very unsafe passing and head-on collisions. Barona does offer a free bus from the El Cajon Transit Center (Sycuan and Viejas do also).

Viejas got rid of their "Play Craps" card craps game and installed a real craps table using the same card setup as Barona. Cards are shuffled once before each new shooter. They offer 10x odds but the table limit is relatively low at $5 to $600 (Barona is $5 to $2000). Table layout is a little different than normal because they duplicated the card boxes on the both sides of the table - in front of the box man and in front of the stick. That way they can run the table with only two dealers on the game no need for someone sitting at the box. Putting the extra card slots in front of the stick required them to move the Horn bets so they created a Horn box on each side of the box in the center for hardway bets. Looks a little strange but that's about it. No exotic bets such as a Fire bet. Only notable thing is the 10x odds. The table has only been open a few days and it's already much more active than the Play Craps table. Viejas does offer alcohol everywhere in the casino but of course no free alcohol per state law.

Someone asked the question about the cards coming out in order 1 through 6 matching the dice: yes it happens and then it's just like a Las Vegas craps game. Regular players tend to think that is a better (or luckier) card layout but of course the odds are still the same. In all the times I've played I think I've seen it happen only 3 or 4 times. I'm sure someone could calculate the odds but it could be 1 in 720? Regular players seem to think certain card patterns are better than others. Typical superstitious craps players!

I play quite a bit at Barona and played at Play Craps at Viejas once in a while. I haven't been up to Pala or Harrah's Rincon since I'm down in San Diego.

Quote: PBguy

A couple of updates regarding craps at San Diego area Indian casinos:

Barona recently changed their rules regarding shuffling the cards and now shuffle (scramble might be a better term) after every ROLL. Players aren't very happy with the change. Before they were supposed to shuffle when the shooter crapped out. Not sure why they changed but I heard it was part of their tribal gaming agreement with the state.

Barona does sell alcohol downstairs in the restaurants. Residents were concerned about having gamblers drink and then drive the twisty road so it was agreed that Barona would only sell alcohol to customers that buy a meal. But there's a catch - downstairs is the Plaza Grill which is a little bistro type seafood place. I've been told that they will give you popcorn shrimp for free and that popcorn shrimp is considered a meal by California so if you order the free popcorn shrimp you can also drink alcohol. BTW the Barona Oaks Steakhouse is VERY good. Better than Ruth Chris' IMO.

The drive to Barona isn't that bad but the road can be dangerous particularly at night. It's 7 miles once you exit Highway 67 in Lakeside to the Casino. Combine some really bad slow drivers with really aggressive drivers and it can lead to very unsafe passing and head-on collisions. Barona does offer a free bus from the El Cajon Transit Center (Sycuan and Viejas do also).

Viejas got rid of their "Play Craps" card craps game and installed a real craps table using the same card setup as Barona. Cards are shuffled once before each new shooter. They offer 10x odds but the table limit is relatively low at $5 to $600 (Barona is $5 to $2000). Table layout is a little different than normal because they duplicated the card boxes on the both sides of the table - in front of the box man and in front of the stick. That way they can run the table with only two dealers on the game no need for someone sitting at the box. Putting the extra card slots in front of the stick required them to move the Horn bets so they created a Horn box on each side of the box in the center for hardway bets. Looks a little strange but that's about it. No exotic bets such as a Fire bet. Only notable thing is the 10x odds. The table has only been open a few days and it's already much more active than the Play Craps table. Viejas does offer alcohol everywhere in the casino but of course no free alcohol per state law.

Someone asked the question about the cards coming out in order 1 through 6 matching the dice: yes it happens and then it's just like a Las Vegas craps game. Regular players tend to think that is a better (or luckier) card layout but of course the odds are still the same. In all the times I've played I think I've seen it happen only 3 or 4 times. I'm sure someone could calculate the odds but it could be 1 in 720? Regular players seem to think certain card patterns are better than others. Typical superstitious craps players!

I play quite a bit at Barona and played at Play Craps at Viejas once in a while. I haven't been up to Pala or Harrah's Rincon since I'm down in San Diego.

This is SO SAD!

I loved to play at viejas because it was fast and you got to sit down.

again, I find it completely ridiculous that they would make a craps table (that the whole lay out was to accommodate dice throwing) in the standard fashion with cards.

But again, that's just me. I've never been in the majority. I voted for Ron Paul - and then wrote him in when his name wasn't on the ballad.

I wonder if they did this because you could count cards with the old system.

Interesting....

Quote: slackyhacky

I wonder if they did this because you could count cards with the old system.

Interesting....

I think they did it just because they got so little play at the card craps table (although I could be wrong). Viejas is trying to recapture its spot as the top Indian casino in San Diego and I think they have to offer "real" (meaning with dice) craps to do that. Both Barona and Sycuan have a lot of regular craps players and some of them are pretty big gamblers buying in for several thousand a night. Never saw that level of play at Viejas.

One more note about the new game at Viejas - they offer a "free buy" on the 4, 10 and 5. 9. Minimum bet is $20. A $25 bet on the 4, 10 pays $49 so the only advantage is that you're not paying the $1 vig when you place the bet. A $20 buy on the 5, 9 pays $29 so you make an extra dollar. Not a bad deal for people that regularly place the 5, 9 for $20+ and/or people that buy the 4, 10.

One thing I don't like about Viejas is that comps are heavily based on losses not just play. A Barona regular told me he played 3 nights at Viejas about 3 to 4 hours each night and had a total of 300 points. At that rate it would take 7 times that amount of play just to reach the first level players club upgrade. In comparison at Barona you would probably be at least 25% to 30% of the way to being upgraded.

Quote: PBguy

they offer a "free buy" on the 4, 10 and 5. 9. Minimum bet is $20. A $25 bet on the 4, 10 pays $49 so the only advantage is that you're not paying the $1 vig when you place the bet. A $20 buy on the 5, 9 pays $29 so you make an extra dollar. Not a bad deal for people that regularly place the 5, 9 for $20+ and/or people that buy the 4, 10

Just wanted to point out that this is not a "free buy" as the Santa Ana Star (and possibly others) offers. What you described is a "vig on win" situation. A "free buy" means you get paid true odds without any vig so it is a 0% edge bet.

Quote: wudged

Just wanted to point out that this is not a "free buy" as the Santa Ana Star (and possibly others) offers. What you described is a "vig on win" situation. A "free buy" means you get paid true odds without any vig so it is a 0% edge bet.

I put it in quotes because that's what they called it but since they don't pay a full 2-1 on the 4, 10 it seemed to me it wasn't really a free buy. Makes more sense to call it "vig on win" instead since that's what it really is.