How do YOU play craps?
April 12th, 2013 at 6:39:10 PM
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The arguing and flaming about dice setting is getting old; time to try to move on to something more "productive."
One thing I think we can agree upon is that we like to gamble, and have our own way of approaching our game(s) of choice.
My question: how do YOU play craps?
I am a place bettor; I almost always pass the dice and don't shoot; I wait for a point to be set, then place 6 and 8.
From there, the choices are legion.
Usually "same bet," then "press:" if it hits again, either same bet, regress a unit, or spread out to the 5 and 9.
Once in awhile, depending on whim and if they have been showing, I bet hard 6 and 8.
I rarely line bet.
One thing I think we can agree upon is that we like to gamble, and have our own way of approaching our game(s) of choice.
My question: how do YOU play craps?
I am a place bettor; I almost always pass the dice and don't shoot; I wait for a point to be set, then place 6 and 8.
From there, the choices are legion.
Usually "same bet," then "press:" if it hits again, either same bet, regress a unit, or spread out to the 5 and 9.
Once in awhile, depending on whim and if they have been showing, I bet hard 6 and 8.
I rarely line bet.
"What, me worry?"
April 12th, 2013 at 6:41:58 PM
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I am also a place bettor. I resist come bets with odds since the number must repeat in order to have a win, and few shooters repeat numbers... or even get past 6 rolls.
I've seen too many players go through a lot of money quickly with the "come bet with full odds" strategy thinking they are reducing the house edge to near zero.
I've seen too many players go through a lot of money quickly with the "come bet with full odds" strategy thinking they are reducing the house edge to near zero.
April 12th, 2013 at 7:00:36 PM
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That scenario also dooms place bettors.
So, why aren't we all darksiders?
So, why aren't we all darksiders?
"What, me worry?"
April 12th, 2013 at 7:09:18 PM
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I have a plan I follow like scripture.
Step 1 - I set up outside of the table, close enough to read the players but far enough to not get caught in the game. I try to get a read if table is trending hot or cold, and also identify if any of the players have obnoxious idiosyncrasies. I adjust my location based on the player read.
Step 2 - Once positioned, I get close enough to both follow the game and appear that I’m playing, thereby allowing approach of a cocktail waitress. I order a beer.
Step 3 - While waiting for my beer, I go over a bunch of WoV info and try to create a plan of action. I want money but I don’t want to get blown out quickly, so I create a plan accordingly.
Step 4 – Plan in place and beer in hand, I leave Craps and go play PaiGow. I don’t have the money to afford Craps!
Only time I actually "play" Craps is when training new employees, and then it's just Line with full odds, maybe placing 6 or 8, and a random whack at High Horns. Of course, I'm Boxing, Sticking, and Dealing while also playing, and since I'm teaching GamePro, I pinch, cap, past post, remove contract bets, hell, I'll steal from other players if I can. If they don't see it, I win. If they do see it, I still win, because they're learning what I'm teaching.
It seems like it could be fun, I just can't afford it IRL.
Step 1 - I set up outside of the table, close enough to read the players but far enough to not get caught in the game. I try to get a read if table is trending hot or cold, and also identify if any of the players have obnoxious idiosyncrasies. I adjust my location based on the player read.
Step 2 - Once positioned, I get close enough to both follow the game and appear that I’m playing, thereby allowing approach of a cocktail waitress. I order a beer.
Step 3 - While waiting for my beer, I go over a bunch of WoV info and try to create a plan of action. I want money but I don’t want to get blown out quickly, so I create a plan accordingly.
Step 4 – Plan in place and beer in hand, I leave Craps and go play PaiGow. I don’t have the money to afford Craps!
Only time I actually "play" Craps is when training new employees, and then it's just Line with full odds, maybe placing 6 or 8, and a random whack at High Horns. Of course, I'm Boxing, Sticking, and Dealing while also playing, and since I'm teaching GamePro, I pinch, cap, past post, remove contract bets, hell, I'll steal from other players if I can. If they don't see it, I win. If they do see it, I still win, because they're learning what I'm teaching.
It seems like it could be fun, I just can't afford it IRL.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
April 12th, 2013 at 7:43:50 PM
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DP and 1 DC with odds nominally, but transition to the lightside if the shooter establishes and makes 2 points.
7-out, line away, pay the don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEcwAWi6dk
April 12th, 2013 at 8:09:11 PM
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I watch the shooter for 3 rolls... I literally never bet on the roll after the come out.. After that Im either all in heavy or nothing at all... I have a fluid approach which is shooter to shooter.. And I'm always waiting on a reason to pull my bets down down.. 1 hour or less.. Math on my mind, with the human error factor staring me in the face..
"I'm a DO'er and you my friend, are a Don'ter"
-Mark Walberg
pain and Gain
April 12th, 2013 at 8:14:55 PM
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Quote: MrVThat scenario also dooms place bettors.
So, why aren't we all darksiders?
Which is why I recently switched to a strategy of betting the passline and the fire bet. It's a negative expectation game, so it can't hurt as much that way when you do lose. And if you get lucky... or if you have the skill that will not be mentioned in this thread because I don't want the thread to get locked... you will get that big fire bet payoff.
Ironically this is what I did the last time I played card craps at Rincon. $5 on the pass with a $5 fire. I hit five numbers for $1250 and after the third pass I used my previous wins to place a couple of numbers and then the hand went on for about twenty five minutes.
April 12th, 2013 at 9:01:36 PM
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$10 pass and $30 odds. Repeat as necessary.
What are these "comps" that people speak of?
(Okay, 10 & 20 for the better part of two hours did rate me a buffet comp a few years ago, albeit at the Golden Nugget.)
What are these "comps" that people speak of?
(Okay, 10 & 20 for the better part of two hours did rate me a buffet comp a few years ago, albeit at the Golden Nugget.)
April 12th, 2013 at 10:17:53 PM
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Come bet every roll, with max odds. 3x4x5x I can handle pretty well on a $5 table. 10x is a little much for me (uh...).
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
April 13th, 2013 at 3:44:17 AM
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Quote: ThatDonGuy$10 pass and $30 odds. Repeat as necessary.
What are these "comps" that people speak of?
(Okay, 10 & 20 for the better part of two hours did rate me a buffet comp a few years ago, albeit at the Golden Nugget.)
Better to win than to worry about comps.
April 13th, 2013 at 3:45:38 AM
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Passline with full odds up to 5x rightside, possibly 10x darkside.
Right side: While realizing it is a fallacy to think you can see a shooter or table will continue to be hot or cold, to enjoy the game I make such decisions and increase or decrease my action accordingly. If a good hunch is going it means constant come betting with full odds till 3 points are undecided plus the line bet with full odds. If the shooter has convinced me it is 'time' somehow it means unrestricted come betting and some place betting for $30 a number to make sure I have both the 6 and 8 covered in some fashion. If at a $5 table just play till tired, that's usually 2 to 2.5 hrs, 2 sessions a day.
Dark side: If about the only one at the table I might go darkside, 2 ways to play:
1] 3x4x5x $5, going with DC heavily when on a hunch, full odds at all times.
2] 10x and $10: Strictly limit myself to 20 bets that have odds in action, so a short session. Sweat having $210 in action at times so if those lose 3 times in a row, or any bets involving odds lose 4 times in a row, I quit the session. I find I ignore the line bets that resolve in one roll. It takes rolling a 7 or 11 about 5-6 times in a row to even notice the dice are being perverse. At the level of 10x odds a player is in a different universe where everything is about the odds bet.
I only indulge in fantasies in harmless fashion. Note that the only thing actually to be criticized about trying to time your action is the fact that a player increases how much he is betting. But that is part of the plan for me to begin with. Adding the higher HE place bets is as close as I come to letting fallacy hurt me, and those are rare bets for me.
Right side: While realizing it is a fallacy to think you can see a shooter or table will continue to be hot or cold, to enjoy the game I make such decisions and increase or decrease my action accordingly. If a good hunch is going it means constant come betting with full odds till 3 points are undecided plus the line bet with full odds. If the shooter has convinced me it is 'time' somehow it means unrestricted come betting and some place betting for $30 a number to make sure I have both the 6 and 8 covered in some fashion. If at a $5 table just play till tired, that's usually 2 to 2.5 hrs, 2 sessions a day.
Dark side: If about the only one at the table I might go darkside, 2 ways to play:
1] 3x4x5x $5, going with DC heavily when on a hunch, full odds at all times.
2] 10x and $10: Strictly limit myself to 20 bets that have odds in action, so a short session. Sweat having $210 in action at times so if those lose 3 times in a row, or any bets involving odds lose 4 times in a row, I quit the session. I find I ignore the line bets that resolve in one roll. It takes rolling a 7 or 11 about 5-6 times in a row to even notice the dice are being perverse. At the level of 10x odds a player is in a different universe where everything is about the odds bet.
I only indulge in fantasies in harmless fashion. Note that the only thing actually to be criticized about trying to time your action is the fact that a player increases how much he is betting. But that is part of the plan for me to begin with. Adding the higher HE place bets is as close as I come to letting fallacy hurt me, and those are rare bets for me.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 13th, 2013 at 5:11:24 AM
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I will literally spend hours thinking about how I want to bet on my next trip...and this could be several days before going.. Whatever I've settled on, I stick to, no matter how bad it's going. I'll never switch sides during a session either.. Last time I was only going to place bet, but were no other players so I was forced to change. Did continuous come bet with 3,4,5X odds. Nearly wiped out within five minutes.. All my money out there then get a good roll, over 20 box numbers hit. Shoulda walked right then. Lost it all and then some over the next couple hours..
The best two month stretch I've had (roughly 20 sessions) I was betting 54 across and single pressing after a hit.. I was also delusional thinking I was influencing the dice.not that it's not possible, but I don't think I was doing it..
The best two month stretch I've had (roughly 20 sessions) I was betting 54 across and single pressing after a hit.. I was also delusional thinking I was influencing the dice.not that it's not possible, but I don't think I was doing it..
April 13th, 2013 at 10:56:47 AM
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I like very conservative and cheap play, PL with a little bit of odds, maybe a 2-way hard-something or other if it gets too boring. However, if no one is able to make their points, and no one is rolling naturals on the come out, and the people at the table are getting really depressed, I will switch to the darkside in order to insure that the next three shooters get on 40-minute rolls and each make 6 points.
April 13th, 2013 at 11:18:28 AM
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Quote: MrVThe arguing and flaming about dice setting is getting old; time to try to move on to something more "productive."
One thing I think we can agree upon is that we like to gamble, and have our own way of approaching our game(s) of choice.
My question: how do YOU play craps?
I am a place bettor; I almost always pass the dice and don't shoot; I wait for a point to be set, then place 6 and 8.
From there, the choices are legion.
Usually "same bet," then "press:" if it hits again, either same bet, regress a unit, or spread out to the 5 and 9.
Once in awhile, depending on whim and if they have been showing, I bet hard 6 and 8.
I rarely line bet.
Yeah, the 5 and 9. And don't forget a $5 four or a $5 ten! All those snarky comments, I didn't realize you were such a genius with betting strategies. I should have given you more credit.
I love you're lead-in too, "since I'm tired of flaming other people's threads, I thought I would post up my own ridiculous ideas, like betting the 5 and 9 and not giving myself any opportunity to bet any free bets."
Great stuff.
aahigh.com
April 13th, 2013 at 12:03:31 PM
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Usually $5 PL with 1X odds on 6,8...$2 odds on 5,9 and $1 or $2 odds on 4,10. I play Craps terribly boring because I am poor and hate table game variance, and not surprisingly, I rarely play the game.
April 13th, 2013 at 1:09:53 PM
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Quote: MrVThe arguing and flaming about dice setting is getting old; time to try to move on to something more "productive."
One thing I think we can agree upon is that we like to gamble, and have our own way of approaching our game(s) of choice.
My question: how do YOU play craps?
I am a place bettor; I almost always pass the dice and don't shoot; I wait for a point to be set, then place 6 and 8.
From there, the choices are legion.
Usually "same bet," then "press:" if it hits again, either same bet, regress a unit, or spread out to the 5 and 9.
Once in awhile, depending on whim and if they have been showing, I bet hard 6 and 8.
I rarely line bet.
depends...
right side- passline/odds, then place 6/8 and continuous come/odds. after 5 hits, press the profit btween what i bet and what i win.
dark- only dont pass/odds. after 2 hits, press all winnings. rinse/repeat
ie: 3/4/5x odds, thus $25dp/$150odds. hit twice, i win 250. press to 35dp/210odds = $245 risked.
or if i'm just passing thru, quick stop for one Bold bet. $100dc/$600 odds. Win or lose, i walk away after bet is resolved.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
April 13th, 2013 at 8:12:04 PM
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Quote: AhighI should have given you more credit...Great stuff.
Oh, pshaw.
Flattery will get you nowhere.
"What, me worry?"
April 13th, 2013 at 9:18:32 PM
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Quote: MrVOh, pshaw.
Flattery will get you nowhere.
You know if you're not going to believe in dice control and not make any free bets, why not just start snapping your fingers after you roll the dice and bet prop bets exclusively.
I'm mean if you're going to go, go all the way!
aahigh.com
April 14th, 2013 at 4:23:38 AM
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Quote: Ahighand not make any free bets
what are free bets? do you mean odds?
April 14th, 2013 at 8:08:53 AM
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Placing six and eight is a good bet, a sound bet.
Mathematically, placing the 5 and 9 is not as sound: point taken.
I don't usually bet the 5 and 9: typically only once I am in a profit lock for the roll, and the (random rolling) shooter is showing legs.
Hey, you want to make come bets with full odds, go for it.
Just remember your come bets get knocked out when a shooter rolls a seven on an ensuing come out roll after making his point.
Ouch.
For something similar in effect to come betting, you could just place the number(s) you would have gotten, had you made a come bet.
True, the "hedge" factor is absent with place bets (come bet wins if seven / eleven is rolled when first making the come bet), but the eight ways of winning on a come out are partially offset by the four ways of losing (craps).
This is how I play; most players are primarily PL and odds bettors, which is fine ... for them.
Mathematically, placing the 5 and 9 is not as sound: point taken.
I don't usually bet the 5 and 9: typically only once I am in a profit lock for the roll, and the (random rolling) shooter is showing legs.
Hey, you want to make come bets with full odds, go for it.
Just remember your come bets get knocked out when a shooter rolls a seven on an ensuing come out roll after making his point.
Ouch.
For something similar in effect to come betting, you could just place the number(s) you would have gotten, had you made a come bet.
True, the "hedge" factor is absent with place bets (come bet wins if seven / eleven is rolled when first making the come bet), but the eight ways of winning on a come out are partially offset by the four ways of losing (craps).
This is how I play; most players are primarily PL and odds bettors, which is fine ... for them.
"What, me worry?"
April 14th, 2013 at 8:24:28 AM
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Quote: MrVJust remember your come bets get knocked out when a shooter rolls a seven on an ensuing come out roll after making his point.
Ouch.
It is a test of a player's ability to keep up his morale when a 7 takes out a bunch of your bets at once, what should be the Come bet player's expectation, actually. You have to decide what you can take, and, yes, expect it. Personally, I don't like more numbers to resolve than 3, including the line bet, under most circumstances just for this reason.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 14th, 2013 at 9:00:36 AM
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Quote: MrVPlacing six and eight is a good bet, a sound bet.
Mathematically, placing the 5 and 9 is not as sound: point taken.
I don't usually bet the 5 and 9: typically only once I am in a profit lock for the roll, and the (random rolling) shooter is showing legs.
Hey, you want to make come bets with full odds, go for it.
Just remember your come bets get knocked out when a shooter rolls a seven on an ensuing come out roll after making his point.
Ouch.
For something similar in effect to come betting, you could just place the number(s) you would have gotten, had you made a come bet.
True, the "hedge" factor is absent with place bets (come bet wins if seven / eleven is rolled when first making the come bet), but the eight ways of winning on a come out are partially offset by the four ways of losing (craps).
This is how I play; most players are primarily PL and odds bettors, which is fine ... for them.
If you're going to do place bets exclusively, just avoid the 5 and 9 is all I'm saying .. and make sure your 4 and 10 bets are at least $20 (a buy). The Mad Professor and other folks think there's nothing wrong with 1.11% edge per roll.
For those who are alright with 1.11% edge per roll on the 5 and 9, let me recommend crapless craps. The edge on the passline is only 1.2% per roll, and if you take 10x odds, the edge per roll isn't that bad at all. Especially considering that your bets are working more often since a smaller percentage of your play is on the comeout roll.
See here for the thread I created to explore the edge per roll of the passline under crapless craps (I had never seen an analysis for edge per roll in crapless, just the fact that the edge per event was much higher spooked a lot of people. But the passline lasts more rolls).
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13414-crapless-craps-revisited/#post228642
aahigh.com
April 14th, 2013 at 9:08:17 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonwhat are free bets? do you mean odds?
Standard craps tables offer two free bets. The first type is commonly referred to as "free odds bet." The other type is referred to as the "free lay odds bets."
The "free" bets collectively refers to both of these bets. To be more detailed, there are 12 free bets on the table as each bet is specific to a number, but I definitely didn't want to be that verbose in explaining each of these 12 bets that have a zero house edge, and are therefore referred to as "free" by many people because of the fact that in theory if you bet them long enough they don't cost you anything at all. So they are "free" and are not part of the "negative" part of what people refer to craps as "negative expectation game."
Sometimes referring to these bets as "free" gets people confused about coupons. I apologize if you were confused by this, and I assumed everyone knew what I was referring to here. But you're not the first person who has been confused by the term when I have used it.
aahigh.com
April 14th, 2013 at 2:51:49 PM
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Quote: AhighIf you're going to do place bets exclusively, just avoid the 5 and 9 is all I'm saying ..
this is interesting because I know some "dice setters" whose "signature numbers" are the 5 and 9.
Most of the dice influencers I know bet the inside: 5, 6, 8, 9 and avoid the 4, 10 unless they use a set such as the mini-V or the cross-sixes which favors the outside numbers.
April 14th, 2013 at 9:11:33 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonthis is interesting because I know some "dice setters" whose "signature numbers" are the 5 and 9.
Most of the dice influencers I know bet the inside: 5, 6, 8, 9 and avoid the 4, 10 unless they use a set such as the mini-V or the cross-sixes which favors the outside numbers.
If your signature numbers are the 2-3, and 4-1 or the 5-4 and 6-3, you're using the wrong set.
You might as well claim your signature number is the boxcars as reason to bet that, snapping your fingers as you exclaim, "COME ON DICE!"
But yeah, it is interesting that so many trained in DI have no clue about house edges and how it's more than twice as hard to make money betting the 5 and 9 as it is to make money on the 4, 6, 8, and 10 for $25 or more and vig on the win on the buy.
If getting a 2.22% player edge per roll over a free odds bet on a 5 or a 9 was only two or three times as hard as getting a 0.84% player edge per roll on a free odds bet on a five or nine, it wouldn't be so difficult.
But there is not a linear relationship between the difficulty of getting a particular player edge over a free bet. The difficulty increases non-linearly.
That means that making money on a 5 or a 9 in the long run is not only more difficult, it is many many times more difficult. You're just banging your head on the wall when you could be winning money with another set.
MadProfessor and I never agreed on this even after demonstrating tons of charts and graphs.
If you're signature number is 5 or 9, you're doing it wrong!!!
aahigh.com
April 15th, 2013 at 5:04:49 AM
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Quote: AhighIf you're signature number is 5 or 9, you're doing it wrong!!!
But what if you're hitting it? "Signature number" means the number you throw a lot of. If someone's "signature number" is 12 and they are hitting their boxcars they can make a lot of money.
Why do you call a "signature number" as something that's wrong?
People when they play craps tend to bet on numbers that are being hit. They press the bets of the bets that are hitting. You press your hard tens don't you? From your last show you might even claim that "ten" is a signature number.
April 15th, 2013 at 9:07:40 AM
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For me it's pass line w/odds. Then sometimes place 6/8, sometimes come/odds, sometimes place 5/6/8 and field. Whatever I'm feeling like at the moment. Never dark side. I always want to shoot and usually i just put the point face up on the dice b4 i chuck em if the stick hasn't done it for me.
April 15th, 2013 at 10:23:13 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonBut what if you're hitting it? "Signature number" means the number you throw a lot of. If someone's "signature number" is 12 and they are hitting their boxcars they can make a lot of money.
Why do you call a "signature number" as something that's wrong?
People when they play craps tend to bet on numbers that are being hit. They press the bets of the bets that are hitting. You press your hard tens don't you? From your last show you might even claim that "ten" is a signature number.
I will say it again, if your signature number from your throw is a 5 or a 9, then you are using the wrong set.
The set transforms, rather than creates, bias.
My throw has outcomes that have the results coming from the top of my set 1 out of 29 instead of 1 out of 36. So I was rolling way too many boxcars with the boxcar set I had been using.
I could have said "well, I have to play the boxcars because I have a player edge hopping the boxcars every roll."
And even if that made me money, how stupid would that be to try to make money on a bet at 13.89% edge per roll instead of changing my set to having hard 8's on the top of my set and then getting more 8's?
Do you understand yet?
Same thing with the 5 and 9 except that the location of the 5's and 9's from your set are a little more complicated than "on the top of your set" and you might need some software to figure out your best set for ya.
aahigh.com
April 15th, 2013 at 11:06:02 AM
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Lately have been playing pass-odds and place the 6 and 8 for 3 bets to start the new shooter, if point is 6 or 8, then place the 5 or 9. Then place bet the next two box numbers rolled, getting up to 5 bets. Collect 3 hits, then start full press-collect, press, collect, etc until all bets are doubled.
This works well on a half way decent table, no chance on short roll tables. Using a 10 shooter bankroll, based on max $ exposure per shooter x 10.
This works well on a half way decent table, no chance on short roll tables. Using a 10 shooter bankroll, based on max $ exposure per shooter x 10.
April 15th, 2013 at 12:36:25 PM
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Generally just $5 pass, single odds if I'm on a streak or shooting, none otherwise, a field toke every half hour or so when the point is 4, 9, or 10. A long roll might get a come bet.
If I'm well up elsewhere, I might live a little go to single odds normally and double if I'm up, with a few two-way yos on the comeout. If I'm in the same mood, I might play even if there are only $10 tables, with my "normal" $5 odds strategy but still the yos.
If I'm well up elsewhere, I might live a little go to single odds normally and double if I'm up, with a few two-way yos on the comeout. If I'm in the same mood, I might play even if there are only $10 tables, with my "normal" $5 odds strategy but still the yos.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
April 15th, 2013 at 12:43:37 PM
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Quote: Ahighhow stupid would that be to try to make money on a bet at 13.89% edge per roll instead of changing my set
Gotta agree with Aaron here. Even those who think they can influence the dice admit most of their throws are random. It's crazy to try to defeat a big house edge.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 15th, 2013 at 11:27:56 PM
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Without turning this into a discussion about dice setting and get the thread zapped, let me just say again that I press the numbers that are hitting. And I tend to press from the inside going out because that's the normal distribution of how numbers hit.
April 16th, 2013 at 5:56:58 AM
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My way to play on a $5 dollar table is to buy in with $1,000 play pass line with 3x4x5x odds then place the 6 and 8 for $30 then one come bet for 3x4x5x odds. Each win is $35. I keep four numbers in play which always includes the 6 and 8 either with come odds bet or place bet. I dont press or increase bets, but I also dont pull the bets down. (Unless I get a really bad vibe). I play until I reach my win/loss limit and dont play longer than two hours a session.
Fortune favors the bold
April 16th, 2013 at 6:03:43 AM
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Quote: ClownkeeperI dont press or increase bets, but I also dont pull the bets down.
A couple of years ago ... well maybe 10 years ago... my son and I were at a craps table and he didnt press, but I did. There were no "magnificent rolls" during the two hours we played at the same table. But when the session was over we both had a profit, but I had twice as much as he had because I pressed and he never did.
April 16th, 2013 at 7:03:24 AM
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Alan was correct in a previous post, not many make it past the 6th roll, some days it seems no one does.
As a regular player the only hope there is the five count, either place a bet after the fifth roll if it is
a box number , or place a come bet on roll 5 and odds on 6 if it is a box number. Have a loss limit
and stick to it and you will survive.
I normally have a good plan and use it, when i dont, like this week end i paid a price large
enough to remind me why i had a plan in the first place. This weekend in Laughflin i broke
every detail of my plan, i played on tables that did not suit me, i did not use the five count
as much as i should have, i did not bet as i should have and i did not follow my loss limit or
hand limit while playing with others, in fact i cant think of anything i did there that i had
planned. 9 sessions, 6 losing sessions....
first five sessions were on tables much longer or higher than i have been playing on. All
losses. Last four were on tables that fit me, all four i was closer to the five count on
others and all 4 i bet 6 & 8 at much higher levels on myself. 3 of the 4 were winners
and one session on a table i could get over i managed a 41 and 32 .
Only 2 times in 4 days did i make more than $50 on any roll by some one else.
Some times this game is brutal and the cost to play it high, sometimes even a person
that knows better pays it.
Dicesitter.
As a regular player the only hope there is the five count, either place a bet after the fifth roll if it is
a box number , or place a come bet on roll 5 and odds on 6 if it is a box number. Have a loss limit
and stick to it and you will survive.
I normally have a good plan and use it, when i dont, like this week end i paid a price large
enough to remind me why i had a plan in the first place. This weekend in Laughflin i broke
every detail of my plan, i played on tables that did not suit me, i did not use the five count
as much as i should have, i did not bet as i should have and i did not follow my loss limit or
hand limit while playing with others, in fact i cant think of anything i did there that i had
planned. 9 sessions, 6 losing sessions....
first five sessions were on tables much longer or higher than i have been playing on. All
losses. Last four were on tables that fit me, all four i was closer to the five count on
others and all 4 i bet 6 & 8 at much higher levels on myself. 3 of the 4 were winners
and one session on a table i could get over i managed a 41 and 32 .
Only 2 times in 4 days did i make more than $50 on any roll by some one else.
Some times this game is brutal and the cost to play it high, sometimes even a person
that knows better pays it.
Dicesitter.
April 16th, 2013 at 10:29:36 AM
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I play a pretty boring game, PL+odds and 2 to 4 come bets plus odds. If it's a 3-4-5x game I always go full odds, if they allow bigger multipliers I will sometimes stick at 3-4-5x or I'll go bigger if I'm feeling it.
If I'm playing the dark side (used to be more frequent, now I waffle) I'll go 1 DP and 2 to 4 DC backed up with no less than 6X lay odds. If the odds multiplier is bigger than 3-4-5x then you can usually lay more than 6X but it varies by number and it gets confusing...I've had a few instances at a 5x odds table where I laid more than I was supposed to and one time they actually returned the amount over the max after the bet lost! I appreciated the honestly of that box man, although I don't expect such treatment...I would have been perfectly fine with them taking all the money as I was trying to bet more...
I never make place bets and always work my come odds on the come-out. My new hobby is collecting the little "ON" lammers from my won come bets. So far I've only gotten one, but if I had been thinking quickly I would have gotten a second one from Bill's on my last trip.
More recently I've been throwing money away on prop bets...hardways, the occasional horn bet...I always kick myself when I get home from my trip and look up the house edge on these bets. But really, if I'm betting $25 units on the pass/come and have 4 units out there, that's $1.41 in expected loss...a $5 bet on the hard 4 is an expected loss of $0.55...so I try not to kick myself too hard. Still, I try not to bet anything in the center. Sometimes I'll throw in a nickel and cover the hardways for the boys, high on the point. If it hits, they're happy. More commonly, I'll put down a line bet for the dealers while I'm shooting, for the same as my line bet.
If I'm playing the dark side (used to be more frequent, now I waffle) I'll go 1 DP and 2 to 4 DC backed up with no less than 6X lay odds. If the odds multiplier is bigger than 3-4-5x then you can usually lay more than 6X but it varies by number and it gets confusing...I've had a few instances at a 5x odds table where I laid more than I was supposed to and one time they actually returned the amount over the max after the bet lost! I appreciated the honestly of that box man, although I don't expect such treatment...I would have been perfectly fine with them taking all the money as I was trying to bet more...
I never make place bets and always work my come odds on the come-out. My new hobby is collecting the little "ON" lammers from my won come bets. So far I've only gotten one, but if I had been thinking quickly I would have gotten a second one from Bill's on my last trip.
More recently I've been throwing money away on prop bets...hardways, the occasional horn bet...I always kick myself when I get home from my trip and look up the house edge on these bets. But really, if I'm betting $25 units on the pass/come and have 4 units out there, that's $1.41 in expected loss...a $5 bet on the hard 4 is an expected loss of $0.55...so I try not to kick myself too hard. Still, I try not to bet anything in the center. Sometimes I'll throw in a nickel and cover the hardways for the boys, high on the point. If it hits, they're happy. More commonly, I'll put down a line bet for the dealers while I'm shooting, for the same as my line bet.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
April 21st, 2013 at 1:13:22 PM
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I also play a pretty boring game. I realized at some point that since this game is negative expectation (in money terms), that in order to maximize my 'fun' expectation i don't need a bet on every single roll. So usually I bet pass (or dont pass) and odds, and just watch the game and the people. If i can get away with it, i often will skip a shooter or two and not bet on them, slowing down my play even more. Occasionally, for fun, i will throw in the occasional hard ways bet. Those are so fun to win, it is worth the negative eV, as long as you don't center your strategy on it. On other occasions i will place 6/8 or make a come bet, but that's only if i have been wining, and probably drinking. Have fun!
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
April 22nd, 2013 at 1:15:07 PM
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I Play PL with 7x-10x odds. And, since the place I play has vig on win for the Buy 4,5,9,10, I usually will play at least $20 on each number to take advantage of the Buy. So it becomes around $80 inside, or around $120 across.
I press but it varies based on how the table has been running. I may press $10-$12 at a time, or $25-$30 at a time. If a number has been showing up quite a bit, I will parlay press, trying to get $300 on a number as fast as possible. One hit at that level makes for a good roll.
Truth be told, I would probably do better by setting a win goal of $100 each time I step up to a table. As soon as I am up $100, walk away. But I would find that too boring of a style, and most of the time, it would also be hard to find a place on a table when I came back from my walkabout.
So instead, I play for the big roll and hope to get a few big presses on the table, hoping to win a couple of G's.
I press but it varies based on how the table has been running. I may press $10-$12 at a time, or $25-$30 at a time. If a number has been showing up quite a bit, I will parlay press, trying to get $300 on a number as fast as possible. One hit at that level makes for a good roll.
Truth be told, I would probably do better by setting a win goal of $100 each time I step up to a table. As soon as I am up $100, walk away. But I would find that too boring of a style, and most of the time, it would also be hard to find a place on a table when I came back from my walkabout.
So instead, I play for the big roll and hope to get a few big presses on the table, hoping to win a couple of G's.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
April 22nd, 2013 at 1:55:11 PM
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I have a radical position here. I make one Come bet (after the 5-Count) on random rollers usually at table minimum. I will put up to 10X in odds if allowed. That's it.
Every bet you make on a shooter is a separate game for you. Make two bets you are playing two games; make three, you are playing three games; the money can go fast playing so many games.
If anticipation is the key to gambling joy, and I think it could be, then one bet will get the heart beating rapidly and the adrenaline flowing but such a strategy will be far less expensive to your bankroll.
Every bet you make on a shooter is a separate game for you. Make two bets you are playing two games; make three, you are playing three games; the money can go fast playing so many games.
If anticipation is the key to gambling joy, and I think it could be, then one bet will get the heart beating rapidly and the adrenaline flowing but such a strategy will be far less expensive to your bankroll.
April 22nd, 2013 at 2:03:12 PM
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I have no consistent way of playing the game either for myself or another shooter.
Randomly selecting a low-house-edge bet (for a random shooter) or selecting a low-house edge bet based on what I am trying to roll is my general approach, though.
Randomly selecting a low-house-edge bet (for a random shooter) or selecting a low-house edge bet based on what I am trying to roll is my general approach, though.
aahigh.com
April 22nd, 2013 at 9:32:38 PM
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The only way to play craps is the horn-hi-yo until I'm out of money! On good nights, my bankroll lasts me a couple of hours or so. On bad nights, with my $100 bankroll, I'm out in about, oh 25 rolls. If it hits, I press it until I have $100 of action and hope for the yo to hit for $540.
Yeah, that's what I do. Then it's off to penny slots until my bank card tells me I can't have no more money.
Yeah, that's what I do. Then it's off to penny slots until my bank card tells me I can't have no more money.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
April 27th, 2013 at 11:24:58 AM
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Quote: FrankScobleteI have a radical position here. I make one Come bet (after the 5-Count) on random rollers usually at table minimum. I will put up to 10X in odds if allowed. That's it.
I must admit i kind of like this strategy. It is generally better to bet more money on fewer bets to achieve the same 'level of action'*. For example if you just bet the pass line for $10 (no odds) then after 120 rolls (~1 hour) you will lose on average $5 with a standard deviation around $60. If instead you used 5-count to reduce that to 43.5% of bets and now up your bets by taking single odds, you would lose only 43.5% of that amount, i.e. $2.20 an hour with a standard deviation of about $72 (Single odds standard deviation of $110*Sqrt(.435)). This is what the 5-count has going for it.. That and it is a bit "fiddly" so that can be more fun, depending on what you like to do.
I skimming "Casino Conquest" I noticed that this seems to be your general approach to most games: Slow them down! And if you have to pretend to be superstitious (e.g trend betting) then that is even more fun!
PS: Note I took some liberties with rounding in this, if anyone cares to check my numbers
*which i define as standard deviation per root hour
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
April 29th, 2013 at 11:42:32 PM
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If you have a pass line bet and establish a point, then you make a come bet, the come bet is a hedge on the outcome being a seven on the first roll of the come bet.
The Wizard says, "thou shalt not hedge."
If you MUST bet more than one free odds bet on the felt at once, the better way to do it is to bet the DC if you have a pass line or the come if you have a don't pass.
Then stop after you have two numbers covered. One on the do and one on the don't.
Any other method of obtaining more than one free bet on the felt at a time is against the Wizard's ten commandments of not hedging and will reduce your chance of winning.
Also, always work the comeout. This is the best way to play the game by the math for all you guys who care the most about the math.
Two points, one on the do, one on the don't always odds bets working every roll!
The Wizard says, "thou shalt not hedge."
If you MUST bet more than one free odds bet on the felt at once, the better way to do it is to bet the DC if you have a pass line or the come if you have a don't pass.
Then stop after you have two numbers covered. One on the do and one on the don't.
Any other method of obtaining more than one free bet on the felt at a time is against the Wizard's ten commandments of not hedging and will reduce your chance of winning.
Also, always work the comeout. This is the best way to play the game by the math for all you guys who care the most about the math.
Two points, one on the do, one on the don't always odds bets working every roll!
aahigh.com
April 29th, 2013 at 11:56:27 PM
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I only violate one rule of smart craps play, and it's a stupid violation, I admit: my odds are always off on the come out.
It gives me a psychological break from sweating the action, since I play a high variance style of craps, in that I desire a high chance of ruination. When I gamble, I have to sweat, or I don't get a thrill. It's part of my gambling addiction. Turning odds on during the come out will result in even more variance, but then variance will be so high that I might be broke after three hours. I busted my entire 100k bankroll at Riviera in two days betting 2500-5000 per number, playing exclusively $5 pass with odds and $5 come with odds. That's my style.
It gives me a psychological break from sweating the action, since I play a high variance style of craps, in that I desire a high chance of ruination. When I gamble, I have to sweat, or I don't get a thrill. It's part of my gambling addiction. Turning odds on during the come out will result in even more variance, but then variance will be so high that I might be broke after three hours. I busted my entire 100k bankroll at Riviera in two days betting 2500-5000 per number, playing exclusively $5 pass with odds and $5 come with odds. That's my style.
April 29th, 2013 at 11:56:57 PM
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Quote: AhighIf you have a pass line bet and establish a point, then you make a come bet, the come bet is a hedge on the outcome being a seven on the first roll of the come bet.
The Wizard says, "thou shalt not hedge."
He has said here though that he does not consider the above action to be hedging.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 30th, 2013 at 12:11:51 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitHe has said here though that he does not consider the above action to be hedging.
A rule is a rule is a rule no matter what the Wizard "considers." And if you want to play by the rules, that's how you do it!
Furthermore, if you want to plan on ONLY winning, you will start with a don't pass bet, and hope to get a seven on the first come bet.
Any time you roll a box number on a come bet, you have already lost (part of) that bet.
If you don't plan on ever losing, get an opportunity for a free bet after WINNING an edge on your don't pass rather than a consolation for losing part of your passline.
Doing the same starting with a DC after the comeout roll and swapping to the come can at least protect you from being polarized against the cheering at the table for the point though.
aahigh.com
April 30th, 2013 at 12:27:51 AM
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Quote: AhighA rule is a rule is a rule no matter what the Wizard "considers." ... starting with a DC after the comeout roll and swapping to the come can at least protect you from being polarized against the cheering at the table for the point though.
Do you mean taking down your DC bet after that bet sets a point? Switch it to a new Come bet? Now *that* would be non-Wizard for sure!
Perhaps it's not what you mean.
Aaron, I'm thinking the Wizard ruffled your feathers that time you met him. Does he have one of those handshakes where you both wind up trying to inflict pain on the other guy?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 30th, 2013 at 12:34:41 AM
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No, you misunderstand. "NO ACTION" is not what I'm suggesting.
Comeout roll (another shooter) no bet.
Point is set, make a DC bet.
DC travels, lay max odds PLUS make a come bet.
HOPE FOR SEVEN OUT AND WIN ALL YOUR BETS.
If you lose the edge on the COME BET take full odds on the come bet (but hope this never ever happens!!!)
WAIT UNTIL ONE OF THE TWO BETS RESOLVE
If the come bet resolves, bet another pass line or come bet.
If the DC bet resolves, bet another DC or don't bet.
Always have two numbers covered. One with the DO and one with the DON'T.
That's the only way to not hedge and have more than one point covered.
If you roll a seven or a number that is already covered you are winning part or all of one bet and losing part of all of another bet at the same time, which is technically a hedge.
Comeout roll (another shooter) no bet.
Point is set, make a DC bet.
DC travels, lay max odds PLUS make a come bet.
HOPE FOR SEVEN OUT AND WIN ALL YOUR BETS.
If you lose the edge on the COME BET take full odds on the come bet (but hope this never ever happens!!!)
WAIT UNTIL ONE OF THE TWO BETS RESOLVE
If the come bet resolves, bet another pass line or come bet.
If the DC bet resolves, bet another DC or don't bet.
Always have two numbers covered. One with the DO and one with the DON'T.
That's the only way to not hedge and have more than one point covered.
If you roll a seven or a number that is already covered you are winning part or all of one bet and losing part of all of another bet at the same time, which is technically a hedge.
aahigh.com
April 30th, 2013 at 12:38:49 AM
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Quote: AhighAlways have two numbers covered. One with the DO and one with the DON'T.
Aaron!! The doey-don't?
It's too bad you discount the Wizard's advice, which certainly includes the advice to avoid this!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
April 30th, 2013 at 12:39:56 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitAaron!! The doey-don't?
It's too bad you discount the Wizard's advice, which certainly includes the advice to avoid this!
No you misunderstand. Jesus! You only bet the opposing bets on different rolls. Two bets, two possible numbers covered!!
Do I have to make a video to explain this? If you get the original point of not violating "thou shalt not hedge" there's only one way to get two zero-edge bets on the felt without hedging.
If you do the "doey don't" that's a hedge (betting the pass and the don't pass at the same exact time).
Maybe I should have left it as an exercise for the reader!
FWIW I do this frequently when betting on random shooters.
This is much easier to see when people load up more than half the numbers on roulette all with equal bet amounts.
But for some reason betting for and against the seven in craps is harder for people to understand how it's a hedge.
Hedge + edge = more likely going to lose than same edge with no hedge.
aahigh.com
