Riva
Riva
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April 4th, 2013 at 9:17:52 AM permalink
I help run a licensed gambling activity for a local non-profit. They have about 20 events per-year to raise money for their organization. It is real-money wagering. I have a couple of questions as it relates to roulette, one of our most popular games. There was no forum for roulette so after posting a different thread yesterday, I figured you same good folks would be able to help me out on a few things.

Some background, roulette is gigantically popular at our events. So much so, that oftentimes players can not get on a table. That's not good as this is perhaps our most profitable game. Most would suggest that we should simply buy/rent more tables and wheels to meet the demand. That's not so easy because of the dealer/personnel issue. This requires at least 2 people per table and the dealers have to be somewhat skilled. Plus, players try to cheat.

So to address this issue, we built two, 20' roulette tables with custom layouts. There is a layout on each side with one wheel in the middle. The betting spots are JUMBO (to say the least) allowing for lots of action. There is one person on the wheel who also is the mucker and a dealer over each layout, right and left, for a total of three people. Now, nobody is pushed away from a table. Plus, with a dealer hovering right over each layout, there is absolutely no cheating.

Here's the issues and, some of you are going to say "oh my gawd!"

All the inside payouts are shaved by about 33%. So, a single number win pays $25, not $36. Players do not mind. In fact, most don't know any better. They are there to have a good time, drink beer and, are full of glee when $25 is pushed their way. All the outside bets pay normal payouts even money or 2 to 1, depending on bet. When I started volunteering there, the minimum and maximum bet was $1 on any bet, no matter if it was inside or out. So a player could literally put $1 on an inside number and $1 on "red" and play all night. It was torture.

I finally got the old timers (dealers) to agree that we need to raise our minimums and and make them apply to both inside as well as outside bets. The results were immediate and huge. Plus, the players are still happy and the game goes just as smoothly as before (there's just more stuff for the mucker to do now).

So now, our "inside" minimum is: $5 inside with a $5 maximum. Yes, same amount. However, the inside $5 can be broke up any way, all $5 on one bet, or any combination of $1 bets so long as it is not more than $5 on any single bet. For clarification, a player could cover all 36 numbers plus the zeros and have 38 $5 bets in action ($190)

On the outside, it's different. Each outside bet is $5. So, if a player wants to bet bet two outside bets, he/she has $10 in play.

Here's the first question....We're (I'm) thinking of raising the max to $10. I know that I can't get hurt too bad on the outside bets because they pay even money or 2 for 1 on some. That's livable. The issue is with the inside numbers. Even with the payouts shaved 33%, that still a big payout with a hit on a single number, that's a $125 payout on a $5 wager. If we make it $10, that's $250. Yes, it's more action but YIKES! Remember, state law stipulates that max winnings are limited to $500 so, a player would have to surrender anything in excess of $500. Most however, simply give the excess winnings to a pal to redeem or simply keep the chips until the next event. Thoughts on raising maximums to $10?

Now here's the "oh my gawd" part. Ready? --We don't use roulette chips! Rather, we simply use the same chips the players purchase at the cashier's table that players use for craps, blackjack, big 6, etc. These are custom chips we had made up for the school and are in $1, $5 and $10 denominations.

It's been this way for years and there is a lot of push back to going to a unique color chip system for roulette. Why the push-back. In short, it's a ton more work for somebody to muck chips all night long. That's it. There's no other reason. Currently, the mucker is sorting $1, $5 and $10 chips. Now, the mucker would be stacking up to 10 different colors. Yikes!

The net affect of all this is players only bet the minimums because there is nothing to distinguish one player's bet from the others as all chips are identical. The bottom line is players are not able to remember a multitude of bets so , they just bet a few and stare at it until it wins or loses. And those who do place multiple bets, often quarrel with the other players claiming that it was their bet. It's maddening!

It was no big deal when bets were limited to just $1 and a person would put our say, 4 different bets. But now, when you have $5 minimums on both the inside and outside, the problem becomes huge. The old timers know that colored chips is the right way to go, particularly with the increased wagering however, they bark that colored chips slow down the game. I agree in part.

I have two possible solutions and I would certainly welcome any others that you may have. First, the state allows that a certain percentage of the dealers can be paid professionals. I can "rent" very capable professional roulette dealers for about $150 per 8 hour shift, per-dealer. So that's $450 per-table per-night and I have two tables. Plus the event runs for 4 days, so that's paying out $3600 total over 4 days--just to use colored chips. On the plus side, I get really good dealers and muckers for that $3600. I'm thinking, in light of all the factors, increased maximums, shaved payouts, smoother play, it's money well spent. i won't make any friends with the old timers because they will now be dealing blackjack, but what the heck. Thoughts? Thank you.
Riva
Riva
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Joined: Apr 3, 2013
April 4th, 2013 at 9:23:11 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

I help run a licensed gambling activity for a local non-profit. They have about 20 events per-year to raise money for their organization. It is real-money wagering. I have a couple of questions as it relates to roulette, one of our most popular games. There was no forum for roulette so after posting a different thread yesterday, I figured you same good folks would be able to help me out on a few things.

Some background, roulette is gigantically popular at our events. So much so, that oftentimes players can not get on a table. That's not good as this is perhaps our most profitable game. Most would suggest that we should simply buy/rent more tables and wheels to meet the demand. That's not so easy because of the dealer/personnel issue. This requires at least 2 people per table and the dealers have to be somewhat skilled. Plus, players try to cheat.

So to address this issue, we built two, 20' roulette tables with custom layouts. There is a layout on each side with one wheel in the middle. The betting spots are JUMBO (to say the least) allowing for lots of action. There is one person on the wheel who also is the mucker and a dealer over each layout, right and left, for a total of three people. Now, nobody is pushed away from a table. Plus, with a dealer hovering right over each layout, there is absolutely no cheating.

Here's the issues and, some of you are going to say "oh my gawd!"

All the inside payouts are shaved by about 33%. So, a single number win pays $25, not $36. Players do not mind. In fact, most don't know any better. They are there to have a good time, drink beer and, are full of glee when $25 is pushed their way. All the outside bets pay normal payouts even money or 2 to 1, depending on bet. When I started volunteering there, the minimum and maximum bet was $1 on any bet, no matter if it was inside or out. So a player could literally put $1 on an inside number and $1 on "red" and play all night. It was torture.

I finally got the old timers (dealers) to agree that we need to raise our minimums and and make them apply to both inside as well as outside bets. The results were immediate and huge. Plus, the players are still happy and the game goes just as smoothly as before (there's just more stuff for the mucker to do now).

So now, our "inside" minimum is: $5 inside with a $5 maximum. Yes, same amount. However, the inside $5 can be broke up any way, all $5 on one bet, or any combination of $1 bets so long as it is not more than $5 on any single bet. For clarification, a player could cover all 36 numbers plus the zeros and have 38 $5 bets in action ($190)

On the outside, it's different. Each outside bet is $5. So, if a player wants to bet bet two outside bets, he/she has $10 in play.

Here's the first question....We're (I'm) thinking of raising the max to $10. I know that I can't get hurt too bad on the outside bets because they pay even money or 2 for 1 on some. That's livable. The issue is with the inside numbers. Even with the payouts shaved 33%, that still a big payout with a hit on a single number, that's a $125 payout on a $5 wager. If we make it $10, that's $250. Yes, it's more action but YIKES! Remember, state law stipulates that max winnings are limited to $500 so, a player would have to surrender anything in excess of $500. Most however, simply give the excess winnings to a pal to redeem or simply keep the chips until the next event. Thoughts on raising maximums to $10?

Now here's the "oh my gawd" part. Ready? --We don't use roulette chips! Rather, we simply use the same chips the players purchase at the cashier's table that players use for craps, blackjack, big 6, etc. These are custom chips we had made up for the school and are in $1, $5 and $10 denominations.

It's been this way for years and there is a lot of push back from some to go to a unique color chip system for roulette. Why the push-back? In short, it's a ton more work for somebody to muck chips all night long. That's it. There's no other reason! Currently, the mucker is sorting $1, $5 and $10 chips. Now, the mucker would be stacking up to 10 different colors. Yikes!

The net affect of all this is players only bet the minimums because there is nothing to distinguish one player's bet from the others as all chips are identical. The bottom line is players are not able to remember a multitude of bets so , they just bet a few and stare at it until it wins or loses. And those who do place multiple bets, often quarrel with the other players claiming that it was their bet. It's maddening!

It was no big deal when bets were limited to just $1 and a person would put our say, 4 different bets. But now, when you have $5 minimums on both the inside and outside, the problem becomes huge. The old timers know that colored chips is the right way to go, particularly with the increased wagering however, they bark that colored chips slow down the game. I agree in part.

I have a possible solution and I would certainly welcome any others that you may have. First, the state allows that a certain percentage of the dealers can be paid professionals. I can "rent" very capable professional roulette dealers for about $150 per 8 hour shift, per-dealer. So that's $450 per-table per-night and I have two tables. Plus the event runs for 4 days, so that's paying out $3600 total over 4 days--just to use colored chips. On the plus side, I get really good dealers and muckers for that $3600. I'm thinking, in light of all the factors, increased maximums, shaved payouts, smoother play, it's money well spent. i won't make any friends with the old timers because they will now be dealing blackjack, but what the heck. Thoughts? Thank you.

DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 4th, 2013 at 11:49:15 AM permalink
What's worse? The arguing amongst yourselves about whether or not to use Roulette chips, or the arguing amongst players about whose chips are whose?

The player arguments gotta slow the game down, right?

Using Roulette chips will also allow for normal sized layouts. I gotta think a lot of the dealer's time where he could help with the mucking, is devoted to helping players reach the far ends of the table. Use a normal layout and a lot if that is eliminated, so they can help muck.

Don't use professionals. Not only will you need to pay them, but they are likely to accidentally pay standard payouts on winning bets. Even if they don't make any mistakes, I doubt they will be that much better or faster. Or at least not enough to cover the expense of hiring them.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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April 4th, 2013 at 12:27:18 PM permalink
If your inside betting spots are sufficiently large to handle 8 chips each, like the point boxes on a craps layout, then one solution would be to use positional bet placement and prohibit any splits/corners/streets/etc. Just allow straight-up and outside bets only, and each player's bet goes in the appropriate location inside each box. You'll have to educate your players where to put their bets somehow.

Perhaps label 8 smaller boxes inside each number box, like this:

A B C D
16
E F G H

And then similarly label the seats around the rail. If you're sitting at spot B, you put your chips in position B for whatever bet you're making. This will work as long as you can trust your players not to pinch chips from other players' spots. Of course, cheating is a big reason colored roulette chips are used in casinos -- too many hands moving over each other.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Riva
Riva
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Joined: Apr 3, 2013
April 4th, 2013 at 12:46:25 PM permalink
Good solid advice. However, there's not much we can do about the tables because the investment has already been made. We made them this big (20') to handle more players without having to double up on dealers. Each 20' table will easily handle 10-12 players per side. That's a total of 48 players on only 2 tables! And, I don't need a highly skilled person spinning the wheel and mucking in the middle so, 48 players with only 4 trained dealers. With all those players, the screaming is like a craps game--only louder!

While the tables are big, players typically don't have trouble reaching bets. If they do, we'll put the bet down for them. And, dragging in losing bets is just as easy on a 10' layout (actually 8') than it is a 8' (actually 6').

You are 100% spot on with your comments: what's worse, using Roulette chips or players arguing and holding back on their betting.
We are going with roulette chips no matter if they like it or not. Probably won't raise the max to $10 because at the end of the day, we are still the cowardly lion and could get murdered.
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