Craps at the Wynn, Warning Shooters

Beethoven, next time it happens, just explain you're always afraid if you throw the dice too hard, the whole building will shake and Mr. Wynn will fall of his roof perch.

Jack Binion: "Archie has more gamble in him than anybody I've ever seen. He was either going to win the Horseshoe or go broke. Nobody had ever won that much from us, and definitely not in the whole town. Archie didn't cheat, and I don't think he ever tried to cheat. The sheer amount of money he won causes you to be cautious. It is only good business to make sure everything is what it is supposed to be, and he is playing on the square. We tried to make sure the dice were absolutely square, and that they were our dice. At the ends of the dice table are little diamond mounds, to make sure the dice bounce randomly. That way you really don't know where in the hell the dice are going to go. No, Archie wasn't cheating. If he was, he would probably still be down there shooting. "

At least one of the Binion kids had some sense in him.

Quote: Supprick

So really where have you been besides the internet, inquiring minds want to know?

By the way,.. Must have been a great book, I couldn't find one review on it on: http://www.amazon.com/Gentleman-Newton-Confessions-Crossroad-Gambler/dp/0615225330

"...Jackie is arguably the world's greatest living poker player" - Jack Binion
"...In his heyday, Jackie could beat anybody. A real Pro's Pro." - Doyle Brunson
"...Pure magic... Any player that stand to lose more than $500 at a poker table, needs to read this book." - Steve Forte
"...He beat all the Pros, every single one of them that he went up against..." - Billy Walters
"...a wonderful human being...he never targeted the naïve player, only the card sharks." - Claudine Williams.

Perhaps the above people provide a bit more credibility?

Quote: teddys

No, Archie wasn't cheating. If he was, he would probably still be down there shooting."

Right. Anyone able to cheat can make more money doing it than he can selling seminars or convincing his drinking pals.

I've never head of Archie doing any seminars. FleaStiff, have you heard of him doing any seminars?

According to Jackie Newton, he wasn't still doing it because they changed the table surface because of his recommendations.

Quote:

Keyser
You are still confusing what I have written and what has been written by Mr. Bill Zender. I do not have ANY video of the incident. He apparently does.

Didn't you write this:

Quote:

Keyser
I have in my possession a video of a dice slide where the cheaters wagered only on hop bets. It illustrates an interesting build-up to the final dice slide. The cheater wagering made four hop wagers on the six/one, six/two, six/three, and six/four, and then had the stick dealer put him up on the eleven and twelve in the proposition wager boxes (along with a dealer two-way on the 11 & 12)."

So is this the video that you have in your possession: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdOQUWzPzKg

If not where can we see it at?

Quote:

Keyser
Regarding your surveillance room experience. Please provide us with some casino names, references, and contact numbers.

This should suffice, I'm not going to give you my full name age, phone number, and my wife's name, there are enough craps players that know me and know what I did before I retired!

Quote:

NRS 455C.160 Unlawful to perform certain acts concerning elevator unless certified as elevator mechanic; criminal penalty; exception.
1. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 3, it is unlawful for any person to install, maintain, relocate, improve, alter or repair an elevator within this State unless the person is certified as an elevator mechanic pursuant to NRS 455C.110.
2. A person who violates subsection 1 is guilty of a misdemeanor.

I'll explain it for you, an owner of a building can not turn back on an elevator if there was an accident on it. The only way that elevator can be turn back on is if the elevator mechanic sees the video of the accident. Then says its safe to turn back on, if they see it had nothing to do with the elevator, like a trip and fall by some drunk, if they feel like there is a problem with that elevator it stays down until it is fixed and and elevator inspector inspects it!

There are plenty of DI's that know me and what I did for a living, My good buddy the great fiction writer even wrote about me going crazy when I retired, trying to stop me from posting that he writes nothing but BS and its costing all of us money by doing so along with all the harassment we all get when we are at the tables, It didn't use to be like that, before they coined the worlds dice influncer, you didn't have the boxman getting on you because you missed the back wall one time!

Quote:

Keyser
Perhaps the above people provide a bit more credibility?

Now I don't feel that what you are posting, is on purpose, just that you happened to read something that the author embellished his writing to make the story more interesting. It still sounds like your trying to defend what you wrote about this whole thing with Archie!

Quote:

teddys
Jack Binion: "Archie has more gamble in him than anybody I've ever seen. He was either going to win the Horseshoe or go broke. Nobody had ever won that much from us, and definitely not in the whole town. Archie didn't cheat, and I don't think he ever tried to cheat. The sheer amount of money he won causes you to be cautious. It is only good business to make sure everything is what it is supposed to be, and he is playing on the square. We tried to make sure the dice were absolutely square, and that they were our dice. At the ends of the dice table are little diamond mounds, to make sure the dice bounce randomly. That way you really don't know where in the hell the dice are going to go. No, Archie wasn't cheating. If he was, he would probably still be down there shooting. "

At least one of the Binion kids had some sense in him.

I've had enough fiction written about me from these fiction writers, so I know how it feels when you read something that is not true about you!

Supperick,

Quote: Supperick

I have in my possession a video of a dice slide where the cheaters wagered only on hop bets. It illustrates an interesting build-up to the final dice slide. The cheater wagering made four hop wagers on the six/one, six/two, six/three, and six/four, and then had the stick dealer put him up on the eleven and twelve in the proposition wager boxes (along with a dealer two-way on the 11 & 12)."

No, I didn't write it. And I've pointed this out to you more than once. As I've said, repeatedly now, Mr. Bill Zender wrote that, not me. I also referenced the article and the location of the article. Again, please reread what I have written.

Quote: Supperick

I'll explain it for you, an owner of a building can not turn back on an elevator if there was an accident on it. The only way that elevator can be turn back on is if the elevator mechanic sees the video of the accident. Then says its safe to turn back on, if they see it had nothing to do with the elevator, like a trip and fall by some drunk, if they feel like there is a problem with that elevator it stays down until it is fixed and and elevator inspector inspects it!

There are plenty of DI's that know me and what I did for a living, My good buddy the great fiction writer even wrote about me going crazy when I retired, trying to stop me from posting that he writes nothing but BS and its costing all of us money by doing so along with all the harassment we all get when we are at the tables, It didn't use to be like that, before they coined the worlds dice influncer, you didn't have the boxman getting on you because you missed the back wall one time!

They say that once ice cream has melted, that it can't be refrozen. What that has do with anything, is well, beyond me. It makes just about as much sense as what you have written above about the elevator. Doesn't it? Should I be using the larger bold font?

I'm sorry Supperick I don't believe that you have ever worked as an operator in the surveillance room, or that you ever had any secret operative position within the casino. However, you probably could convince me that you are or were perhaps a deep under cover operative for the Salvation Army. :) All joking aside, I don't believe you. I do, however, believe Mr. Bill Zender. I believe what he has written about the Wynn dice sliding incident and his credentials are also more impressive than what you've have offered unto us. Can you provide us with any casino names, references, or other hints about where you worked? The elevator hint didn't work for me. If you want us to believe that you're more credible than Zender, then here's your chance.

Quote: Supperick

I've had enough fiction written about me from these fiction writers, so I know how it feels when you read something that is not true about you!

Please provide us with examples. I find the people that offered up their testimonials regarding Jackie Newton and his book to perhaps be a bit more credible than you are. Can you please offer up some kind of proof that should make us all believe otherwise? Also, who has written fiction about you? Was it from a book called, "The Tawdry Tales of Supperick the Elevator Mechanic?" When? Was JFK involved too? ;)

-Keyser

Quote:

Keyser
Jackie Newton's story holds the truth.

No Keyser it still doesn't hold water, to begin with I played on those tables back in the early 90's none of them were bouncy, they didn't start making tables bouncy tell the late 90's because of all the fiction that was being written about the DI's. Binion's was my buddies favorite casino to play in, so I got stuck playing there all the time. I hated it for the obvious reason, that most people have with casinos and that is it was smoky, it had nothing to do with the tables!

As your story went, Jackie Newton wrote, he had Jack put something under the felt to make it bouncer. Well if Karras was a cheat, he would have known that on his first roll of the dice after it was done and walked out of the casino! Cheats don't play anywhere that they can't beat the table. There in it to make money and get out as fast as they can. No casino is going to let any player bet them out of that kind of money if they were cheating.

You had this same stupid argument before and used the same book as a reference and lost that battle to mk1654321, I thought that your stupid argument on this matter would have just going away, but no it's back so lets finish it here, using what mk1654321 wrote. Note that I'm going to be using quotes evidently something you don't know how to use, because you took a full page out of the RJ Newspaper without using a quote to make your point. I banned the use of anything from that Newspaper, when they were suing for copyrights infringements from anybody that did what you did, when you posted their article, there are no article from that Newspaper on the board that I help run.

Quote:

Keyser
The following is an article from the Las Vegas Review Journal the 1st of October regarding an alleged cheating scam known as “dice sliding.”

While technically you didn't take it right out of the newspaper, you did cut and pasted just about the whole article from Worldgameprotection.com

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13463-craps-at-the-wynn-warning-shooters/4/

Quote:

mkl654321

I don't know who this Jackie Newton person is, but personal anecdotes, no matter how intriguing, aren't the world's most reliable sources of information.

So here you have an 80 year old having a ghost writer, writing his book for him and it is all personal anecdotes. I could see how a few of these stories would get twisted around to make them sound more interesting.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13463-craps-at-the-wynn-warning-shooters/4/

Quote:

mkl654321
Binion's, or any other casino for that matter, could not legally alter the playing surface without Gaming Control permission (not that they necessarily sought such permission). It is also very hard to believe that if Karras used and relied on such a throw as you describe, that he would not have noticed the change--the dice would have landed differently, and sounded different when they landed.

Karras won significant amounts of money. He also lost significant amounts of money. He's been turned into somewhat of a legend because of that, but you have to realize one thing--he made huge bets. The amount he won wasn't actually all that remarkable, given his bet sizes--he was about 400 bets ahead at his zenith. That would be like a $5 bettor being ahead $2000 after several months---unusual, but well inside the realm of possibility.

I don't know who this Jackie Newton person is, but personal anecdotes, no matter how intriguing, aren't the world's most reliable sources of information. In fact, the pad story tands to make me think that he made the entire incident up. It would be interesting if someone who actually worked at Binion's during that time could or would verify it--but I doubt that anyone would--the whole thing sounds apocryphal.

Note in the above two quotes I gave the link back to where I found them, the same thing I would do if I was quoting something out of a book. There are way to many thing that are written about gambling that is nothing more then fiction, and good people believe it everyday. Everybody that knows Karras said he didn't cheat, even Jack Binion! They all say the same thing, he had big balls, but didn't know when to stop. A cheat wouldn't lose what he won back to the same casino he took it off of, there was no trick shot used by him, but it might have helped to sell a few books.

Real gamblers do not cheat and if someone was cheating like the book claims, anybody that was a real gambler wouldn't play with them! Here are two more videos you should watch before you go out and burn that damn book!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTLOlSIcVYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sTwK6ZrmD4

Then read all the comments about Karras!

Superrick,

I'm not sure as to why you quoted Mkl654321, he is not someone that is quote worthy. He was a disgraced former member of this forum, and has been banned.

However, the quotes that I posted from Jackie Newton's book are significant because he was reputable person. Steve Forte, and Billy Walters have provided testimonials for him. Even Jack Binion provided a testimonial.

Bill Zender is a casino risk consultant with a very respectable resume as well.

"...Jackie is arguably the world's greatest living poker player" - Jack Binion
"...In his heyday, Jackie could beat anybody. A real Pro's Pro." - Doyle Brunson
"...Pure magic... Any player that stand to lose more than $500 at a poker table, needs to read this book." - Steve Forte
"...He beat all the Pros, every single one of them that he went up against..." - Billy Walters
"...a wonderful human being...he never targeted the naïve player, only the card sharks." - Claudine Williams.

I find the above people to be far more credible than, "Binion's was my buddies favorite casino to play in, so I got stuck playing there all the time." And a disgraced former forum member's comments.



-Keyser

Quote:

Keyser

I'm not sure as to why you quoted Mkl654321, he is not someone that is quote worthy. He was a disgraced former member of this forum, and has been banned.

Because he is not living in la la land, he read a bunch of different things on Karras and now get this made a rational decision base on all the different things that he read, he didn't base his decision on some ghost writer interpretation of what he was or wasn't told!
If you have everybody saying he never cheated, even the owner of the casino that he won all that money from then lost it back saying he wasn't cheating, then I guess that if you believe this book,.. you will always be stuck in la la land!

Just because someone is banned from anything doesn't mean that they are dumb, bad, or anything else you can think of, the only thing it means is someone had a different viewpoint of what they did or said when you are taking about any forum.

Quote:

Keyser
However, the quotes that I posted from Jackie Newton's book are significant because he was reputable person. Steve Forte, and Billy Walters have provided testimonials for him. Even Jack Binion provided a testimonial.

Bill Zender is a casino risk consultant with a very respectable resume as well.

"...Jackie is arguably the world's greatest living poker player" - Jack Binion
"...In his heyday, Jackie could beat anybody. A real Pro's Pro." - Doyle Brunson
"...Pure magic... Any player that stand to lose more than $500 at a poker table, needs to read this book." - Steve Forte
"...He beat all the Pros, every single one of them that he went up against..." - Billy Walters
"...a wonderful human being...he never targeted the naïve player, only the card sharks." - Claudine Williams.

Show everybody where these guy said Karras was cheating, please post the page number so we don't have to waste our time reading the whole book and a quote from that book, then go find anything else that you can besides you hero’s book that said he cheated, again please post the page number and a link to where you found it! Does that make sense to you or is it to much to ask?

Quote:

Keyser
However, the quotes that I posted from Jackie Newton's book are significant because he was reputable person. Steve Forte, and Billy Walters have provided testimonials for him. Even Jack Binion provided a testimonial.

Have you even taking the time to read anything I posted or look at the videos about this matter, because if you did, you would have realized that the same people you said provided testimonials that they play cards with your hero also said that Karras wasn't cheating!

Nowhere did I see where these guys said he was the worlds greatest writer and everything that was in his book was based on facts! They were only saying that they played against him!

Now I always write that the Madprofessor is the worlds greatest fiction writer on the game of craps, some people share the same view point, other think he is the worlds greatest player, that the world has never seen! This is just my opinion based on what I've read, sense nobody has ever seen him in a real casino doing what he says he can do, like rolling 18, 4's and 19, 10's in one hand playing craps and the only other box number he rolled was the 6! If there are 10,000 rational players that said the guy does not cheat and one ghost writer that wrote he was a cheat, who are most rational people going to believe?

Case Closed!

Quote: Superrick

Show everybody where these guy said Karras was cheating, please post the page number so we don't have to waste our time reading the whole book and a quote from that book, then go find anything else that you can besides you hero’s book that said he cheated, again please post the page number and a link to where you found it! Does that make sense to you or is it to much to ask?

Nobody is calling Archie Karras a cheater. Are they??? I'm simply calling him a dice influencer/controller.

Also, why are you calling people like Bill Zender, Steve Forte, and Binion fiction writers?

Are you, Ahigh, and Harley by chance the same person? At times, I'm picking up on the same mania in all of your posts.

I'm confused about your real position on the following topics, since it appears that you're frequently on both sides. Can you please provide some clarity on the following?

Are you a DI/ DC?
Do you believe that you can influence or control the dice?
If you are a DI/DC, then why can't there be other DI/DCs out there?
One minute you're arguing that the Wynn incident and Archie Karas weren't DI/DCs, the next moment your off in left field.

And what does being an elevator mechanic that happens to have visited a surveillance room have to do with knowing the truth about DI/DC incidents?



-Keyser.

Can anyone confirm that the Wynn casinos now have a wire/rod under the layout to prevent dice sliding?

Yes. It's loosely referred to as a "speed bump." There are other casinos that have them, but only a couple here in town.

If you ask me, it's a disgrace to the employees who paid those wins that they have to do this. Any crew should not have allowed this to happen.

It's really more of a raised bump along the white line on the edge of the prop bets than a wire. You have to focus in to notice it, really.

Quote: Keyser

Are you, Ahigh, and Harley by chance the same person?

Thanks for paying such close attention. But you're not the only one who lacks attention to detail enough to tell me apart from Harley.

In fact, Alan Mendelson is also confusing the two of us in person.

I'm the guy who shows his face and does not hide.

I use my real first and last name.

People come to my house.

Including Harley who is shown right next to me wearing a mask at my house on the Ahigh show.

I have met many people in real life on this board.

I am not Harley. Suggesting that I am, or confusing me with Harley is merely demonstrating your tendencies to throw everybody into a category of idiots without making any distinctions at all between them.

I will say, however, that Harley and I are both white guys. Other than that, we are very different. Both in our beliefs and in what we say.

Many people read what Harley says and think it's what I said. Some people see Harley and think it's me. And some people ask this question if we are the same guy.

Those people just aren't really paying much attention at all, otherwise they wouldn't be asking questions that have such obvious answers.

The answer is "no."