Simultaneous Place Bet and Come Bet (Moved)?
If you are allowed to do this, how would it be shown on the betting box? I had thought that each player only has a small section within their betting box for their money.
The come bet would be placed where it always is, inside the box, and the place bet would be placed where it always is, on the outside / edge of the box, corresponding to where you are standing at the craps table.
No conflict there in positioning the bets.
Say, for example, you have a double odds table like at the California. You roll a four, they mark it up, and you've got $5 on the pass line. Once you get up to $15, you're done betting on the four. But if you wanted $20, you could take down your odds and get a $20 self-service buy bet, and it only costs you $1 when you get paid. You can bet anything from $5 more to $25 more for the same $1 cost, just make sure to NOT max out your odds first, but rather to have at least $20 on the BUY bet instead and put the REMAINDER on the odds.
For the four and ten point where they do not offer what's known as "automatic buys starting at $10," this is one of the few cases where maxxing out your odds is not the smartest play to get the lowest possible edge!
So I usually just buy the point for $30 (for $1 vig) cuz I want to get more money than $20 or $25 on the points (6/8 I can do $30 either way)
If you make a PUT bet of $5 + 5x odds on the 6/8 it pays exactly the same as a $30 place bet...so on a 5x odds table, on the 6/8 it doesn't matter...
Quote: TIMSPEED
If you make a PUT bet of $5 + 5x odds on the 6/8 it pays exactly the same as a $30 place bet...so on a 5x odds table, on the 6/8 it doesn't matter...
This is true for a put bet on the 5/9 with 4x odds, or the 4/10 with 3x odds...in fact this is how the place bets originated, if I'm not mistaken!
He had bought the 10, and after a few presses he had gotten it up to the table maximum of $2,500.00. When 10 was rolled again and he was no longer allowed to press his buy bet, he made a put bet (come bet) on the 10 for $100.00 with $300.00 odds. Now he had $2,900.00 combined action on the 10, more than the table max. (Since buy bets and come bets usually share the same spot on the layout, the dealer just scooted his buy bet back a bit.)
Quote: YouCanBetOnThatI recently saw a player "get around" the table max by combining a buy bet and a come bet.
He had bought the 10, and after a few presses he had gotten it up to the table maximum of $2,500.00. When 10 was rolled again and he was no longer allowed to press his buy bet, he made a put bet (come bet) on the 10 for $100.00 with $300.00 odds. Now he had $2,900.00 combined action on the 10, more than the table max. (Since buy bets and come bets usually share the same spot on the layout, the dealer just scooted his buy bet back a bit.)
I like doing self-service place bets and buy bets on top of odds just to elicit responses from other players sometimes. But normally at a 10x table, 10x is enough for me.
Certainly. More than enough rope to hang yourself . . . :)Quote: AhighI like doing self-service place bets and buy bets on top of odds just to elicit responses from other players sometimes. But normally at a 10x table, 10x is enough for me.
Quote: MrVI wonder if any casinos would consider this combination as exceeding the limit, and thus prohibit it?
At Pechanga, I had one guy try to put 300$ on the horn. They just kind of stared at the money confusedly until the guy said to make it a 50/100/100/50, which was what the limit was. (Why on earth the horn has a lower limit than the sum of the individual numbers is beyond me though...)
Quote: AhighBut normally at a 10x table, 10x is enough for me.
Pfft. Doesn't the Riviera offer 1000x? =P
http://www.rivierahotel.com/las-vegas-casino/table-games/
How many players actually take advantage of super high odds when available, e.g. Casino Royale?
I have only seen one guy take 100X odds there, and I spent a fair amount of time at the table over several trips.
Someone said there was little play on it at Riv, too.
One would think that a whale would be savvy enough to sniff this out and play against the house at what is for all practical purposes a 50/50 proposition.
Quote: YouCanBetOnThatI recently saw a player "get around" the table max by combining a buy bet and a come bet.
He had bought the 10, and after a few presses he had gotten it up to the table maximum of $2,500.00. When 10 was rolled again and he was no longer allowed to press his buy bet, he made a put bet (come bet) on the 10 for $100.00 with $300.00 odds. Now he had $2,900.00 combined action on the 10, more than the table max. (Since buy bets and come bets usually share the same spot on the layout, the dealer just scooted his buy bet back a bit.)
Quote: MrVI wonder if any casinos would consider this combination as exceeding the limit, and thus prohibit it?
I'm thinking that if you're betting large enough to do this trick, then you've got enough experience that the trick becomes somewhat obvious when you approach the table limit.
As such, the casinos probably designed the limit with this in mind, and wouldn't prohibit it. Hell, they'd probably encourage it!
Big odds bets lost most of the time.
Quote: MrVNot to highjack the thread, but ...
How many players actually take advantage of super high odds when available, e.g. Casino Royale?
I have only seen one guy take 100X odds there, and I spent a fair amount of time at the table over several trips.
Someone said there was little play on it at Riv, too.
One would think that a whale would be savvy enough to sniff this out and play against the house at what is for all practical purposes a 50/50 proposition.
if the table min is $5 or $10 probably not a lot....But if the table min was $1....I bet you would see a lot of players play 30x-50x odds....I know I would....If I could find a $1 table with 100x's odds....I would play $1 P/L with 50X's odds with a couple of come bets...
Quote: vert1276if the table min is $5 or $10 probably not a lot....But if the table min was $1....I bet you would see a lot of players play 30x-50x odds....I know I would....If I could find a $1 table with 100x's odds....I would play $1 P/L with 50X's odds with a couple of come bets...
You say that, but go and watch and tell me what percentage of bets at Joker's Wild ($1 minimums with 10x odds) are max odds bets compared to the same percentage of players taking max odds on a $10 table with 3x4x5x at the Wynn.
You have one of the smartest group of craps players at the Wynn making a high ratio of odds bets. And at the Joker's Wild, where everyone SHOULD be playing max odds on every passline bet, all they can afford is $8 across.
There are MANY factors to what type of bets people are going to want to place. And in reality, on this forum, the edge is a much more important factor to posters on this forum than actual players at ANY actual craps table.
Many people that would be making more odds bets don't win often enough to want to play craps, and prefer to play something that doesn't offer so many "good" bets that win as rarely as some of those good bets win.
Intelligence is required before you can expect someone to even know about edges. The average craps player is not as intelligent as the average person on this forum (not a fact, just a guess on my part).
I actually have to replay what I just typed in after some responses I have been getting on other threads, but yeah, I think that's probably true.
In summary, the max odds on a given table is absolutely NOT an indication of how players are going to bet on that table.
The major indicators for how players are going to bet are, in my opinion:
1) Table minimum (higher minimums, expect higher odds multiple taken - counter intuitive, but I believe this is TRUE!)
2) Geographical location (demographics of players - and ratio of tourists to locals included here)
3) Day of week (more odds taken on weekends with tourists!)
4) Time of day (highest odds bets generally occur right before people head for their rooms IE get this done let's win or lose it now!)
5) Maximum allowable odds
I tried to list these in the order of importance for how likely they affect betting patterns. But this is all just my perspective and opinion, and not based on science or fact.
A lot of locals play craps to pass the time. Volatility and the chance to win are just one reason people play craps. A low edge with low volatility can be had with many betting strategies to just play to pass the time and have a few drinks. Locals tend to eventually find these strategies that have terrible long term edges compared to max odds (many times worse) but offer fewer surprises to the cost to hang out at the table with absolute minimum exposure to their money on the felt and are still much better edges than other games that require more thinking while drinking.
Quote: MrVHow many players actually take advantage of super high odds when available, e.g. Casino Royale?
Not many. 10x and 20x joints exist but most players are at 2x odds or else are doing some rather daring and bold 5x odds action.
100x and 1,000x are largely advertisements.
I understand that one craps dealer would routinely drop by after his shift elsewhere ended, he would do table minimum Put Bets with 100x odds at Casino Royale, wait two rolls and then take down the odds action and leave. Often his was the only 100x action that crew had seen all day.
The casino managers are not fools. They know they can safely offer 100x odds at craps just as they can blatantly not only offer 6:5 blackjack but can put that 6:5 in fourteen inch high flashing lights on their marquee. The casino managers deal with the real world and many craps players will gripe about an odds offering but will do so while playing along at 2x odds for most of the night. Let some sweet young thing in a low cut dress show up and many of those 2x guys will go to 5x, but that is about it. Most of the world lumbers along at low odds. At South Point 2x is all they allow. I think its disgraceful. However, if South Point suddenly went to 100x odds, I doubt anyone would change their habits all that much.
Quote: YouCanBetOnThatI recently saw a player "get around" the table max by combining a buy bet and a come bet.
He had bought the 10, and after a few presses he had gotten it up to the table maximum of $2,500.00. When 10 was rolled again and he was no longer allowed to press his buy bet, he made a put bet (come bet) on the 10 for $100.00 with $300.00 odds. Now he had $2,900.00 combined action on the 10, more than the table max. (Since buy bets and come bets usually share the same spot on the layout, the dealer just scooted his buy bet back a bit.)
So what you're saying is he would have gotten paid better if he had just placed the 10.
$100 put bet with $300 odds pays $600 + $100 or $700
$400 place bet pays $720 ($400*(9/5))
I learned something just now - I thought a place bet was always the same as a put bet with max 3-4-5 odds. This is true for 6/8/5/9, but not for the 4/10 (as shown above).
Quote: AcesAndEightsThis is true for a put bet on the 5/9 with 4x odds, or the 4/10 with 3x odds...in fact this is how the place bets originated, if I'm not mistaken!
I was mistaken! Only true for 6/8/5/9 as I just noted.
Quote: sodawaterand if you wanted, you could even increase the size of the come bet inside the box for the 6 too.
However, if you do that, you are getting even money for a 5:6 bet, a 9.09% house edge; it's the same as the Big 6. Why in the world would you do that?
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Quote: AhighAs the amount of odds allowed decreases, it becomes more important to know how to get more money on the number with a place bet. This is not a great strategy for those who want the lowest possible edge.
Say, for example, you have a double odds table like at the California. You roll a four, they mark it up, and you've got $5 on the pass line. Once you get up to $15, you're done betting on the four. But if you wanted $20, you could take down your odds and get a $20 self-service buy bet, and it only costs you $1 when you get paid. You can bet anything from $5 more to $25 more for the same $1 cost, just make sure to NOT max out your odds first, but rather to have at least $20 on the BUY bet instead and put the REMAINDER on the odds.
For the four and ten point where they do not offer what's known as "automatic buys starting at $10," this is one of the few cases where maxxing out your odds is not the smartest play to get the lowest possible edge!
This is only true if you MUST put more money on the 4, and you can't get enough through odds. The buy bet is enough more advantageous than the place bet to overcome its disadvantage vis-a-vis the odds bet.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
