I think I may have been overpayed

I had a $20 passline bet today at lunch for the Silverton. I backed it up with $125 odds. When it came time to get paid, I got all green chips on the back and the dealer on 1st base (the younger Pat) said to Marco (the dealer who paid me), "I'm not sure you paid him right." He said, "the pay is $150." He had a stack of greens next to my $125 stack of greens and an additional two greens that were obviously visible on the side as separate (for the camera). The ambiguity was whether the first stack was $100 or $125 on the pay...

I waited while the boxman and the stick man inspected the pay. After about 15 to 20 seconds of this inspection, and nobody took it away, I accepted the chips and I said, and I quote, "I don't think I've ever won a bet that big. I'm happy." The boxman watched me make a $250 odds bet yesterday, and I didn't win it, (thought I threw the dice trying to win it once). That was a max odds on a $25 line bet.

Anyway, I think what happened, and I'm not 100% sure is that he paid me $175 instead of $150 in the back. But I didn't discriminate because I knew it was at LEAST 150, and I knew the pay should have been 150, so I didn't count it, I picked it all up and put it in the rail while I said "I'm happy."

Then I tipped two bucks on the comeout roll after that while betting $5 on the line.

I soon left and thought that was a good enough session being up about as much as that win.

I honestly have no idea if I got paid $175 or $150, but the way the play stopped, I think I may have been overpaid.

Just curious who .. out of you .. would have waited longer and given more opportunity to have the dealer reprimanded versus just taking your extra green chip. My suspicion was that if the dealer who insisted "the pay is $150" and clearly was making my pay look like $150, if he overpaid me on purpose, what is my motivation to get him into trouble?

Anyway, I was happy and I tipped probably an extra $15 compared to what I would normally have tipped for a day. I know nobody is going to admit to doing this on a regular basis, but it opens up the possibility that tipping can result in over-payments.

What was the point that was hit?

I really don't see the point in what you did. I would have just broken the payment down to make sure they paid me correctly, and if they overpaid me, throw them the extra chip.

Not sure what the benefit is of being dishonest at the pit.

And btw, it is "overpaid".

Not sure where people got into this habit of spelling paid as "payed", but I'm seeing it more and more lately.

Quote: Ahigh

I had a $20 passline bet today at lunch for the Silverton. I backed it up with $125 odds. When it came time to get paid, I got all green chips on the back and the dealer on 1st base (the younger Pat) said to Marco (the dealer who paid me), "I'm not sure you paid him right." He said, "the pay is $150." He had a stack of greens next to my $125 stack of greens and an additional two greens that were obviously visible on the side as separate (for the camera). The ambiguity was whether the first stack was $100 or $125 on the pay....

Well, for starters, if you had $125 odds, your point was either 4/6/8/10, so the payout would have only been $150 had the point been 6 or 8...
If you had 5 chips stacked, then that's the dealer and boxmans fault for not splashing it for all to see...take your extra $25 and be happy.

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I was sure that they didn't under-pay me, and I wasn't sure if they didn't overpay me. And it's not my job to be sure and I didn't want to be sure.

I just was happy and took it. They argued long enough and the guy who paid me said he paid me right, and after waiting a while, I just took the money and said I was happy and nobody stopped me. The box was right there.

The only option I had was to correct the dealer if he had in fact overpaid me. I figured, I was happy so what's the fuss about?

But yeah, I could have gone in there and started counting green chips, I just didn't!

I stacked them up and let them look at them for a long time, and the dealer insisted he was right and I took them.

If you don't understand the ambiguity of how I could be sure I was paid enough and gave them plenty of time to deal with any errors, you're missing the entire topic of conversation.

Basically, I was happy, I gave them plenty of chance to see if they overpaid me, and I didn't care if they over or under paid me as I looked at it, and it looked good to me!

As far as correcting overpayed versus overpaid, if it had been me, I wouldn't have made that correction; maybe a microcosm to the conversation. What does it do for YOU to correct me? Just curious...

Quote: Ahigh

I had a $20 passline bet today at lunch for the Silverton. I backed it up with $125 odds.

Assuming the point was 6 or 8, it seems to me that you should have been paid $170 -- that's $20 for the line bet and $125 * 6/5 = $150 for the odds, for a total of $170. If you only received green, then perhaps he gave you 7 green and took back 1 of the reds from your line bet. (I know I've had times with $5 on the line, point of 9, with $10 odds. On the win, I'm due $5 + $10*3/2 = $20, so the dealer just drops a quarter and pulls back a nickel. Seems plausible to me they did a similar thing for you -- dropped $175 and pulled back $5.)

It still seems you should know exactly what you had been paid if you had your mind on the game. Maybe you miss something when casually collecting a payout, but if a question has been raised about the proper pay, I don't see how you could end the transaction not knowing for certain, whether you report any discrepancy or not.

I got paid an even stack of four reds on the front. That was very straight-forward.

The only opportunity for error on the dealers part was making a $125 stack the same height as my odds bet before paying the additional $50 next to it.

I didn't look at it close enough to know if it was a $125 stack or a $100 stack leaning sideways, basically. I didn't care.

The point was a six-point.

But all of that is the details. The question is if I did anything immoral by NOT CARING if they overpaid me (or should I say overpayed since somepeople care aboutthat.)

Just curiosity. I don't think I did anything bad, and I have no idea if I was overpaid or not. I just don't care because I KNOW I was NOT under paid.

I will add that if I knew for SURE they were overpaying me, I wouldn't have taken the money.

But I didn't count it and I didn't care.

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The way I didn't know is that I just gave them enough time to look at it, but I just looked at it real quick and decided that it was at LEAST $150.

Then I stacked the green chips first and put the red chips on top and put it in the rack without counting.

I already had $700 greens in the rack at that point, so it wasn't obvious once it was in the rack unless you knew exactly how much I already had how much I had been paid.

The REAL lesson to be learned is that the original poster does not know what he should have been paid and does not know what he was paid ... and this is a danger.

Proper procedure: The dealer pays your ODDS bet first. Then he pays your LINE bet. (This is why odds bets are slightly offset from being directly behind your passline bet).
Common procedure: The dealer determines your total payout and makes ONE payment in that amount often with a verbal comment.

NOTE: Whenever "there is a marker on the play" (yeah, I know that's football, not craps): Take your hands away from it briefly and let it be viewed by all. They are the umpires, the Box has final word... then you pick it up if no one has spoken.

Meanwhile, you do your own math.

My major reaction to this post was that if the player does not know what he should be paid and does not really know what he is being paid, something is surely wrong here. Over payments and under payments are common. Trust in dealers is a good thing. It is often misplaced. The other base dealer is watching, the stick is watching, the Box is watching, Surveillance is watching (maybe) the Floor should be but often is busy elsewhere.... but heck the first person who should be watching is the PLAYER.

Quote: FleaStiff

The REAL lesson to be learned is that the original poster does not know what he should have been paid and does not know what he was paid ... and this is a danger.

Proper procedure: The dealer pays your ODDS bet first. Then he pays your LINE bet. (This is why odds bets are slightly offset from being directly behind your passline bet).
Common procedure: The dealer determines your total payout and makes ONE payment in that amount often with a verbal comment.

NOTE: Whenever "there is a marker on the play" (yeah, I know that's football, not craps): Take your hands away from it briefly and let it be viewed by all. They are the umpires, the Box has final word... then you pick it up if no one has spoken.

Meanwhile, you do your own math.

My major reaction to this post was that if the player does not know what he should be paid and does not really know what he is being paid, something is surely wrong here. Over payments and under payments are common. Trust in dealers is a good thing. It is often misplaced. The other base dealer is watching, the stick is watching, the Box is watching, Surveillance is watching (maybe) the Floor should be but often is busy elsewhere.... but heck the first person who should be watching is the PLAYER.

I thought I made it real clear. I was certain that there was either 6 or 7 green chips for payment that should have been 6 green chips. When I saw there were at least 6, I was happy and waited for them to resolve any problems.

I refused to disambiguate 6 vs 7 chips on a payment when I knew I was supposed to get 6. I stopped at the disambiguation stage.

This shouldn't be confusing.

If I were sure it was 7 chips, I would have given a chip back, therefore I had incentive NOT to be sure and I was NOT sure.

Quote: Ahigh

I thought I made it real clear. I was certain that there was either 6 or 7 green chips for payment that should have been 6 green chips. When I saw there were at least 6, I was happy and waited for them to resolve any problems.

I refused to disambiguate 6 vs 7 chips on a payment when I knew I was supposed to get 6. I stopped at the disambiguation stage.

This shouldn't be confusing.

If I were sure it was 7 chips, I would have given a chip back, therefore I had incentive NOT to be sure and I was NOT sure.

Okay. I get it now. That is frankly a better situation. You chose to stop at the disambiguation stage because you were satisfied that it was not an underpayment and therefore it was acceptable to you. You did not know that it was an over payment either, you simply knew that it was not under and this was satisfactory to you.

I'm just curious, though, if there is anybody who, at that stage, and AFTER the entire crew spent at least 15 seconds looking at the stacks in payment would have then gone on to count it with great scrutiny, or just put it up in the rack with a smile like I did.

It's entirely possible that the chip was just a leaner and I was only wishfully thinking I got overpaid. But I am sort of more thinking there was an extra chip in the bigger stack. But whatever, I'm not sure.

But there was some uncertainty there on the dealers part, at least initially, that the pay might have been too much.

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I would understand correcting a severe mistake like paid on losing wager.

Extra chip... just keep playing. It would probably cost just as much to correct, by holding up the game and being a general buzzkill, and it's not like anyone at all would be better off for it.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm just curious, though, if there is anybody who, at that stage, and AFTER the entire crew spent at least 15 seconds looking at the stacks in payment would have then gone on to count it with great scrutiny, or just put it up in the rack with a smile like I did.

I think that there is at least one person who would. He is a frequent poster to this forum.

Quote: Ahigh

As far as correcting overpayed versus overpaid, if it had been me, I wouldn't have made that correction; maybe a microcosm to the conversation. What does it do for YOU to correct me? Just curious...

Especially seeing as how you rendered it correctly (thrice) in your second sentence: "When it came time to get paid, I got all green chips on the back and the dealer on 1st base (the younger Pat) said to Marco (the dealer who paid me), "I'm not sure you paid him right." "

Quote: Ahigh

Basically, I was happy, I gave them plenty of chance to see if they overpaid me, and I didn't care if they over or under paid me as I looked at it, and it looked good to me!

As far as correcting overpayed versus overpaid, if it had been me, I wouldn't have made that correction; maybe a microcosm to the conversation. What does it do for YOU to correct me? Just curious...

If you were happy and it didn't matter if they overpaid or underpaid you, why did you take the time to type out this post?

Add me to the group who doesn't understand why you don't count out how much they pay you to make sure you are paid correctly.

As for my correction of you, if my correcting you means one more person in this world spells 'overpaid' correctly, it is worth the effort.

Quote: SACR

If you were happy and it didn't matter if they overpaid or underpaid you, why did you take the time to type out this post?

Add me to the group who doesn't understand why you don't count out how much they pay you to make sure you are paid correctly.

As for my correction of you, if my correcting you means one more person in this world spells 'overpaid' correctly, it is worth the effort.

The short answer is that I was curious if anybody would worry about it.

Later this evening, I had a $5 bet that travelled to the 10. The dealer (Joe) put my come bet on top of TeddyS odds bet and paid the bet for $10 instead of $5. Teddy then gave me $10 (pocketing the extra $5 himself) and when the stickman (Marco -- the same guy who possibly overpaid me earlier) asked Teddy why he was giving me money, he said "I was just making sure he got paid." Then I said to Marco, "it wasn't a mistake I was worried about" and he then said "yeah kinda like earlier today, huh?"

I wasn't going to correct Joe and Joe knew that Teddy and I were together and were smart enough not to worry about what was happening.

Of course Joe is smart enough to never admit to doing what he did on purpose. I have seen Joe make mistakes in front of me on purpose just to see if I would notice, and I can count the number of mistakes Joe made in 2012 on two hands. It was four until December, and he started making mistakes on purpose just to see if I was paying attention. I think I caught them all.

Usually the mistakes that Joe makes on purpose are small and in the house's favor (hardway working on the comeout comes down after the shooter rolls a FIVE when the player isn't looking and is instead looking to place odds on the five .. he is sneaky .. you have to remember you had that bet). This was the first mistake I have seen Joe make in a player's favor (paying Teddy for my come bet as if it were an extra $5 on his odds bet).

It's entirely possible (though not likely) that Joe made this mistake on accident. But it would be the very first mistake Joe has ever made in a player's favor. And he averages about one mistake every two months (except December when he was trying to get a mistake over on me for kicks - including the mentioned one dollar hard 6 in that case).

Quote: Ahigh

The short answer is that I was curious if anybody would worry about it.

You were curious if anyone on this board, who didn't even know you had made or won this bet until you posted about it, would worry about you being overpaid?

You waited through an inspection/verification of the payout, and they okayed it. You did due diligence the way few would have; most people knowing of an overpayment would have snatched-and-stashed.

In these cases I throw in the extra quarter and say "Lock it up" (meaning the bank, stack, or rack). If they interpreted it as a toke and lock it up there, fine too after the review.
Boxman's blessing after his review ends the matter. The fact that you stated you might have been overpaid is merits for you.

Quote: Paigowdan

You waited through an inspection/verification of the payout, and they okayed it. You did due diligence the way few would have; most people knowing of an overpayment would have snatched-and-stashed.

In these cases I throw in the extra quarter and say "Lock it up" (meaning the bank, stack, or rack). If they interpreted it as a toke and lock it up there, fine too after the review.
Boxman's blessing after his review ends the matter. The fact that you stated you might have been overpaid is merits for you.

Thanks Paigowdan.

Quote: SACR

You were curious if anyone on this board, who didn't even know you had made or won this bet until you posted about it, would worry about you being overpaid?

Really? You really think that's what I was curious about? No. I was wondering if anybody else out there, in the same situation as I found myself in, would have worried about it.

I know a lot of people think a lot of things about me, like I'm retarded with math, or believing that dice control might be possible makes me retarded, but this is right on up there with many people who think that I'm stupid. I mean if you _really_ believed this tangential question you just posed here was a possibility, wow. How insulting is that? Really, now. You think I'm that stupid? Really. Wow.

I continue to be amazed at the round-about ways that people go to in order to insult me.

When I play, I don't drink and pay close attention to my game. I take overpayments on a case by case basis, depending on the dealer.

If there is an obvious overpayment and I spot it right away, I toss the chip back to the dealer with a comment of "nice try" in most cases. If the dealer is gruff or is not communicative, then I will simply leave the overpayment there until he/she is ready for the next bet and I will make the point to leave it there until the very last second for him/her to notice and pick up the payment. If nothing is still done, I take the overpayment, but I will make a good percentage of it a tip for the dealer on a future bet.

In your case, Ahigh, when you play craps, you need to keep track of all payments in and out for errors. If you got an extra green chip and they argue about it and agree that the payment is right, take the payment. If you are sure that you got an overpayment, think about using it as tips. If you are not sure, then be sure the next time it happens, because quite easily, it could be an underpayment.

Quote: boymimbo

When I play, I don't drink and pay close attention to my game. I take overpayments on a case by case basis, depending on the dealer.

If there is an obvious overpayment and I spot it right away, I toss the chip back to the dealer with a comment of "nice try" in most cases. If the dealer is gruff or is not communicative, then I will simply leave the overpayment there until he/she is ready for the next bet and I will make the point to leave it there until the very last second for him/her to notice and pick up the payment. If nothing is still done, I take the overpayment, but I will make a good percentage of it a tip for the dealer on a future bet.

In your case, Ahigh, when you play craps, you need to keep track of all payments in and out for errors. If you got an extra green chip and they argue about it and agree that the payment is right, take the payment. If you are sure that you got an overpayment, think about using it as tips. If you are not sure, then be sure the next time it happens, because quite easily, it could be an underpayment.

So let's say you get a $25 overpayment, and the crew insists it was correct. So, being a nice guy, you then place the $25 as a dealer bet. It loses. Ten minutes later, a suit comes walking up to you, and says a review of the table has determined that you were overpaid by $25 a while ago, and the casino would like their $25 chip back.

Now what? You are going to have to pay it back. Now that $25 mistake the dealer made in your favor, is going to COST you $25.
Are we having fun yet?

Quote: RaleighCraps

So let's say you get a $25 overpayment, and the crew insists it was correct. So, being a nice guy, you then place the $25 as a dealer bet. It loses. Ten minutes later, a suit comes walking up to you, and says a review of the table has determined that you were overpaid by $25 a while ago, and the casino would like their $25 chip back.

Now what? You are going to have to pay it back. Now that $25 mistake the dealer made in your favor, is going to COST you $25.
Are we having fun yet?

Good one.
Better yet, this actually happened in Reno in 1997 or 98 according to the story. I think it was at the old Flamingo.

Grave Dice crew were overpaying to their friends.
They got away with it the first 2 nights. They got greedy and ...
They were all detained and arrested. Crew and Players.
The Crew was fired. They all did some jail time.

I never except a larger payoff.

I know exactly how much my winning bets pay and always double-check a large payoff b4 I touch it with the Dealer or Box.

I do not want to even be accused of being a cheater, by accepting a larger payoff than what I am entitled to,
even though I may look like one

Quote: RaleighCraps

So let's say you get a $25 overpayment, and the crew insists it was correct. So, being a nice guy, you then place the $25 as a dealer bet. It loses. Ten minutes later, a suit comes walking up to you, and says a review of the table has determined that you were overpaid by $25 a while ago, and the casino would like their $25 chip back.

Now what? You are going to have to pay it back. Now that $25 mistake the dealer made in your favor, is going to COST you $25.
Are we having fun yet?

That's fine, too, in as much as the $25 overpayment was never "legitemately" or honestly yours, and that you did refuse it, if you did not bet it but threw it in.

So, IF you had tossed it back in saying the exact phrase "It's not mine, Lock it up," instead of betting it, even as a dealer toke bet, you're off the hook. When you threw it back in, you returned it. If the dealer took it as a toke instead of returning it into the bank, the next $25 in tips have to go back to the bank on that "dealer error." You can say, "I knew it was an overpayment, and returned it to the bank, and said I "Not mine, lock it up. Now What the DEALER did...."

Also, once the BOXMAN approved the payout as a supervisor, it was a supervisory error, and should be swallowed by the house.


Na-HA!

Quote: Paigowdan

Also, once the BOXMAN approved the payout as a supervisor, it was a supervisory error, and should be swallowed by the house.

I think Paigowdan's account has been hacked

I've mellowed out. Since giving up dealing to gamblers, gamblers have risen slightly in my eyes. Beneficiaries of a little distance.

Congrats!

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What? Dan has mellowed?....next he'll be counting and hole carding 3CP....also j/k Dan.

Quote: Ahigh

Really? You really think that's what I was curious about? No. I was wondering if anybody else out there, in the same situation as I found myself in, would have worried about it.

I know a lot of people think a lot of things about me, like I'm retarded with math, or believing that dice control might be possible makes me retarded, but this is right on up there with many people who think that I'm stupid. I mean if you _really_ believed this tangential question you just posed here was a possibility, wow. How insulting is that? Really, now. You think I'm that stupid? Really. Wow.

I continue to be amazed at the round-about ways that people go to in order to insult me.

I don't think you're retarded with math, mainly because I'm one of those people who doesn't play 'by the math' of the game, and think the math enthusiasts are their own little breed. If they want to play the way they think will give them the fewest losses over a lifetime, it is their money, good on them.

FWIW, I believe dice control is possible, just like I believe it is possible for 5-10 people in this world to throw a baseball with pinpoint location at 100 mph. I think if you were truly able to exert control over the dice, you wouldn't have blown out your bankroll last year.

As for my question, it wasn't a matter of thinking you are stupid, it is more a matter of thinking you like attention.

Quote: Ahigh

I'm just curious, though, if there is anybody who, at that stage, and AFTER the entire crew spent at least 15 seconds looking at the stacks in payment would have then gone on to count it with great scrutiny

Only the honest ones.

People make mistakes, a dice crew is made up of people. If you think you've been overpaid and you don't make sure you weren't, and you just happily pocket the chips, you are, IMO, a dishonest person. Whether or not you'd be in any trouble if surveillance had spotted it, or whatever, you still have to live with yourself. If you can live with even the possibility of taking something that isn't yours.... well, I think that says a lot about your character.

Quote: RaleighCraps

So let's say you get a $25 overpayment, and the crew insists it was correct. So, being a nice guy, you then place the $25 as a dealer bet. It loses. Ten minutes later, a suit comes walking up to you, and says a review of the table has determined that you were overpaid by $25 a while ago, and the casino would like their $25 chip back.

Now what? You are going to have to pay it back. Now that $25 mistake the dealer made in your favor, is going to COST you $25.
Are we having fun yet?

It hasn't happened to me yet where I've had to give the bet back. And note that I am letting the crew make their decision when it comes to the overpayment and if the crew (or dealer) is a good bunch, I will toss the overpayment back. It is only when the dealer / crew is unfriendly when I will wait until the last second for them to notice the overpayment and take it. I am not picking up the money early. I am giving them every last chance to figure it out.

There are plenty of times when I am sitting at a Pai Gow table or Blackjack table staring down the dealer because they have made the incorrect payment. If the dealer is paying attention to me, I'll point at the chips and they usually will immediately notice the error. In the case of craps, it's the same thing. The difference in craps is that I gotta pick up the bet before the dice go out for the next throw.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Only the honest ones.

People make mistakes, a dice crew is made up of people. If you think you've been overpaid and you don't make sure you weren't, and you just happily pocket the chips, you are, IMO, a dishonest person. Whether or not you'd be in any trouble if surveillance had spotted it, or whatever, you still have to live with yourself. If you can live with even the possibility of taking something that isn't yours.... well, I think that says a lot about your character.

This is the response I was fishing for and I think you are right. I don't actually know that I was overpaid, but I don't want my reputation to be that of someone who takes advantage of mistakes like this...

Thanks for stepping up. I do think, though that the box had plenty of chance to look it over and it was more curiosity than true worry.

If it were anything bigger than a green chip, it would have been just that much more serious and worthy of splashing out the stack in question by me, and that is what I failed to do and will do next time something like this happens.