Please, some definitions?

A lot of words and terms are used and I'd like to know the definitions:

1. Dice influencing (influencer)

2. Dice controlling (controller)

3. Dice setting (setter)

4. Random shooting (shooter)

And in the case of #1 and #2 how much "influencing" or "controlling" do you need to qualify these terms??

deleted

1-3: superstitious affectation

4: reality

I think I fall into categories 3 and 4. I set the dice every throw, strictly for my own amusement -- same set and throw no matter what number I would like to have come up. I am not so foolish as to believe my "technique" has any influence on the outcome different from just closing my eyes and flinging the bones. It's just fun. Sometimes I have said I might play roulette if they would let me spin the wheel and roll the ball.

I was really hoping for some real answers about how these terms are defined, not any judgments about whether or not they actually exist or if anyone believes them possible. So to start the discussion about "definition" I will offer the kind of "working definition" I use in these discussions:

1. Dice influencing (influencer) Someone who consistently can affect to some degree the numbers of each roll. That might be increasing or decreasing the appearance of the 7, the appearance of inside numbers or outside numbers. The key word for me is consistently showing the desired goal.

2. Dice controlling (controller) This is more strict than "dice influencing" in that a "dice controller" or "dice controlling" must actually show consistent delivery of a desired number. Any who can "control" the dice should be able to deliver specific numbers on demand.

3. Dice setting (setter) This is someone who arranges the dice in some way as they go about their throw or toss, or arranging the dice in some way.

4. Random shooting (shooter) No particular or defined way of picking up and shooting, rolling or throwing the dice.

Again, I don't want to debate what works, what is possible, what can or can't be done, but I would like to know what we are talking about. I think #1, #2, and #3 are sometimes substituted for each other in conversations when in my opinion they have different meanings.

Remember the Pet Rock? It was pretty good at Play Dead but not so hot at Fetch.
Same thing with dice control.

Influencing is the weasel word Dice Controllers use to let you know that they will yammer at you for hours and hours about not being able to make the next roll of the dice a certain number but merely have "influence" over various rolls.

Dice Controlling is what the influencer believes exists but has not mastered.

Dice Setting is the positioning of a die in reference to spatial coordinates (or in reference to a piece of Sushi) which supposedly leads to desired results in the next roll.

Random Shooting is what everyone does but which some diehards will describe as being "controlled" because they are true believers and like all those who are of the faith there simply is no tolerance for those who deny The Truth. That is why I have this friendly banter going on with PacoMartin. He is a denier of The Truth, A Disbeliever. That is why he is never able to see Aunt Dotty If only he would take my seminars and open his mind to The Truth, he too would be able to see Aunt Dotty.

I can't really come up with anything better to differenciate #1 and #2. And, yeah, it's hard to prove that anyone is successfully doing either. I submit that a "controller" is someone who has a practiced delivery and release, in an effort to "influence" the outcome.

Of course, to successfully do either, they also need to do #3.

#3 is practiced by both the #1/#2 crowd, as well as by the #4 crowd. I.E. Many people will arrange the dice in a specific manner. But many of them also then fling them without regard for any attempt at control / influence. I tend to think of these people as superstitious time wasters.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Many people will arrange the dice in a specific manner. But many of them also then fling them without regard for any attempt at control / influence. I tend to think of these people as superstitious time wasters.

I highly resemble that remark!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I can't really come up with anything better to differenciate #1 and #2. And, yeah, it's hard to prove that anyone is successfully doing either. I submit that a "controller" is someone who has a practiced delivery and release, in an effort to "influence" the outcome.

Of course, to successfully do either, they also need to do #3.

#3 is practiced by both the #1/#2 crowd, as well as by the #4 crowd. I.E. Many people will arrange the dice in a specific manner. But many of them also then fling them without regard for any attempt at control / influence. I tend to think of these people as superstitious time wasters.

I am a "Dice Setter". I set them with the objective of throwing an 11. I am successful about once every 15-17 attempts.

Alan,

You're not going to get agreement among craps players what these definitions are.

In my experience, they mean absolutely nothing because they are as often used to describe things that don't make any sense as the other way around.

One of the reasons I chose "GoodShooter" for my website name is because this is term that the dealers use. "Same good shooter."

A good shooter is a shooter that you want to bet on. There's an implication that they are betting the bets that pay off passline/come with odds, but who knows?

The guys, like super rick, who think they know about ways to throw the dice don't even use these terms. They use a level of indirection with these terms. IE: instead of "dice influencer" or "DI" it is "so-called DI."

Generally pointing out that these terms are used to describe attributes of players in a way that is not appropriate (IE: they think they are a DI but they as random as random can get and probably for their own benefit because if they weren't random, they would probably bet against their bias towards sevens without knowing what their bias actually is).

In general, there is no governing body that gives you a certificate that you can influence the dice because literally nobody has even made a process to prove that it's possible.

So in conclusion, none of these terms mean anything more than "my main man" or similar such positive descriptions made of other people who blindly attribute positive aspects to someone in a group of people.

And while we're on the subject, I generally have not co-mingled much with this community of DI's. I've posted on a few boards and what not. But I haven't been hit over the head with a bunch of people wanting to take advantage of my gear to hone in their bias. I generally think it only goes so far and caters more to the new players the whole idea of influencing the dice is mostly just a way to teach people about the basics of playing the game.

Sort of like a preacher who is an atheist I guess.

Just to drive home the point of not knowing what your bias is, most people who record rolls, record the sum of the two dice. In a perfect world, you'd know the outcome of the left die and the outcome of the right die independently, but nobody cares about that.

And the same people who think that the sum is all that is important, also think that a die set is what determines the outcome and/or bias.

First point: unless you know which die is the first die and which die is the second die, it makes no sense to use any non-hardway set.
Second point: the possibility for bias is in the throw, not in the set. The set transforms the bias, but has no bias towards any particular outcome on its own.

Generally speaking, all of these experts don't even talk much about these two points. And the same people who ridicule me for not recording rolls in the casino write "7" when the seven rolls instead of 52, 25, 43, 34, 61, or 16.

Not all that helpful really if you ask me. Assuming the dice don't touch each other, there are two generally independent outcomes per throw, not one. You need to know the bias independently for each outcome to have any chance of anything in my opinion.

Excellent post! Please repost to Heavy's board and start a conversation!

There are no true definitions for hocus pocus.

Quote: iluvdisco33

There are no true definitions for hocus pocus.

And to be fair, dismissal of the possibility of getting something other than random outcome as total bullshit is just as inept as believing you can change your set without knowing anything else to get a bias towards something you're betting on.

No two people throw the same way. That much I am certain of.

But even the same person attempting to throw with a bias continuously isn't going to be all that conscious of any bias he is able to attain. Your brain just can't keep track of all those samples on a sample size large enough to know what it is.

I personally believe without a computer, statistics, and some hard core science you are lost.

Therefore I think most are lost on this topic.

I don't even purport to be the authority on everything, but I have yet to meet the guy who is ahead in the direction that I am going.

" but I have yet to meet the guy who is ahead in the direction that I am going. "

Really ? http://www.dicebusters.com/

Yeah, I know these folks. And I even go so far as to say I respect them. But I don't really see that they are doing anything but selling basic how-to classes.

Put another way, the guys who are betting millions of dollars playing poker don't do poker classes.

I don't mind guys who are doing classes, but I am really just doing my own thing, and not trying to learn how to teach others to play the game. I want to take it a little further.

None of these guys are busting down my door to learn what I'm doing that they haven't already figured out. And I'm pretty sure there are things I'm doing that they are not at this point.

The guy I'm looking to meet isn't selling classes, and is making more money in a day than a year of doing classes.

Outside of work (my 9 to 5) and playing craps (for fun) my biggest up day in 2012 was almost $20,000. For me to think about doing classes, I would just do them for free because what's the point in collecting a couple thousand bucks to help some guys out? It's really about helping somebody out for me if I'm going to do that. I'm doing alright and not the teacher type I guess.

If all those guys are worth tens of millions of dollars, that just shows what I don't know.

But I'm assuming, frankly, that none of them are playing with a million plus bankroll.

No argument here. But if I could screw these other guys over, I would do it in a heartbeat.

deleted

1= Can sometimes persuade the dice via pantomime and sweet words

2= Able to bend the dice to his will via brute force and foul language

3= Wants to achieve The Power, but is too lame.

4= see: atheist

Quote: Ahigh

First point: unless you know which die is the first die and which die is the second die, it makes no sense to use any non-hardway set.
Second point: the possibility for bias is in the throw, not in the set. The set transforms the bias, but has no bias towards any particular outcome on its own.

Generally speaking, all of these experts don't even talk much about these two points. And the same people who ridicule me for not recording rolls in the casino write "7" when the seven rolls instead of 52, 25, 43, 34, 61, or 16.

Not all that helpful really if you ask me. Assuming the dice don't touch each other, there are two generally independent outcomes per throw, not one. You need to know the bias independently for each outcome to have any chance of anything in my opinion.

That's why when you're practicing, you should use 2 differently-colored dice. That way you know exactly which ones are landing on what number.

I'll mention to the stick that I need two different colored dice. Hey, I'll even supply the green one! That should go over well....

Quote: DeMango

I'll mention to the stick that I need two different colored dice. Hey, I'll even supply the green one! That should go over well....

Har har, that's why I said "practicing."

I dont want to contribute to the derailing of my own thread, but:

Quote: AcesAndEights

That's why when you're practicing, you should use 2 differently-colored dice. That way you know exactly which ones are landing on what number.

As a matter of fact, at some of the Indian casinos where you throw dice for card craps there are two different color dice. Perhaps those who believe that they are influencing or controlling the dice should test their theory at Rincon, for example, where one die determines one red card and one die determines the other green card.

And getting back to the point of this thread:

If there can't be any uniform understanding about what dice influencing or dice controlling are supposed to be, how can we even discuss the ability of anyone to do it?

Even if we had a definition of dice influencing and dice control, how would you measure it? Would there be certain tolerances for how many rotations the dice make in the air, or how many bounces before reaching the back wall, or a tolerance for the flatness that the cubes attain on the felt on the first impact?

What I am getting at is that in order to test anyone's claims certain parameters and tolerances must be defined. The idea that the left dice must stay on the left might be a simple test. Another simple test must be that the dice must hit within the same "box" or area of the table for the first bounce.

Without clear definitions no one can claim anything but being a random shooter who has a particular style. In other words -- all dice throws are pigs but some have lipstick or makeup or wear diamonds.

Alan,

I have always had a hard time relating to the way that you approach the subject at hand here. Maybe it's because you're a TV guy and I'm not. I don't really know what the disconnect is.

In general, and as I said, none of the terms really mean anything in my opinion. If anything, using the same terms that everyone else uses is surely going to get you classified along with the associations that already exist for those terms.

Maybe a good analogy is the terms "cold" and "hot." A "hot" table, for example, means that you are rolling more winning rolls than losing rolls. But it could just be a lot of sevens during the comeout. So a hot table doesn't mean the dice are hot, right?

It just means the table is lucky. A hot table could even be a bunch of don't players who keep hitting every box number once before rolling the lucky seven!

Another thing to keep in mind is that the discussion of these terms is very often had by people who understand less about the game than you do.

Take this guy for example: he's the most well known artist who paints stuff relating to the game of craps. His name is Michael Godard, and check out this painting:

Click image for link...



The guy who works at the studio called and asked me personally if I wanted one of these signed pieces of art. As I told him, I'm already familiar with the art.

What I didn't tell him is that I would never own this as it MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

It also exposes a couple of facts:

The artist doesn't understand that a seven is not good in this situation. Either that, or *I* am confused somehow that maybe the olive wants the player to lose his money for some reason.

Either way, the point I am making is this:

PEOPLE GENERALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS GAME. And it's not just the terms that you mention.

When you learn a little bit about the game, you quickly forget about the fact that people that know very little to nothing pretend as if they know more than they do and they make things EVEN MORE CONFUSING IN THE PROCESS.

So that's pretty much how it is and how it's going to be if you ask me.

But let me challenge you on your thread, what is "interesting" about the fact that people who don't know what they are talking about use these terms as if they do?

Here's my edit of what it should look like to me to have a chance of being accurate:



I do have to give him credit for getting the pips in the right place and not using backgammon dice though. He's a great artist, really, just a few mistakes here and there that gives away that he's probably not as much of a player as an artist. Just like you might not be as much of a player as a TV guy.

I guarantee you that, just like you're asking what a "DI" is versus a "controller" someone is arguing somewhere about whether a seven is good or bad, and then the argument goes on and on and on. Maybe even referencing this artwork as "evidence" that the seven is good!!

I'm very familiar with Godard's art but frankly I never tried to interpret that image as showing a seven after the point is established with odds behind the passline. The only thing I "saw" in the image was hot dice with a high roller martini and the olive cheering on the dice with the big stacks indicating it was a hot roll for the high roller. In other words, all appear to me to be positive images for playing dice.

Never did I imagine that the 6 and 1 were coming at the wrong time.

gee, I wonder what you see when you look at works by Calder and Miro???

Stop over at Centaur Galleries in the Fashion Show mall (say hello for me) and take a look at the Calder, Miro and especially Dali and tell me what you "see" in those images? By the way, they have a big Leroy Neiman exhibit opening.

Quote: AlanMendelson

gee, I wonder what you see when you look at works by Calder and Miro???

Or Hieronymus Bosch. That should give you plenty of opportunity to disagree on the meaning.

Quote: AlanMendelson

If there can't be any uniform understanding about what dice influencing or dice controlling are supposed to be, how can we even discuss the ability of anyone to do it?

Even if we had a definition of dice influencing and dice control, how would you measure it?
Would there be certain tolerances for how many rotations the dice make in the air, or how many bounces before reaching the back wall, or a tolerance for the flatness that the cubes attain on the felt on the first impact?

https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/4/

"Even the strongest believers in dice control will admit that most throws, even of the best shooters, are still random.
However, it takes a small percentage only of precise throws to overcome the house edge.
What is happening on these successful throws?
There are two schools of thought, or types of shooters.
Both types of shooters set the dice in a certain way, hoping to keep them on axis, and together in rotation, as if the dice were glued together.
Two things can go wrong after the dice leave the shooter's hands, and that is what divides the two types of shooters."

Frank S and Co. say you can only find out how good a DI you are by entering your actual dice rolls into the Smart Craps program and work from there.
http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/software.shtml
"Smart Craps is a fundamentally new way for dice controllers to win at the casino game of craps. With Smart Craps, you will learn:
how to prove, with statistical certainty, that you are influencing the dice outcomes, using our powerful and new Pro Test© method."

A few other DI gurus have their own spreadsheets, like Wong.

Excellent!

" A few other DI gurus have their own spreadsheets, like Wong. "


In case you missed it, WONG now says he was WRONG !

Quote: DJTeddyBear

#3 is practiced by both the #1/#2 crowd, as well as by the #4 crowd. I.E. Many people will arrange the dice in a specific manner. But many of them also then fling them without regard for any attempt at control / influence. I tend to think of these people as superstitious time wasters.

DJ as a confirmed #3 (do I then have to 'try harder, try harder') I can confirm that the action makes money for me. Actually it follows a very accepted principle on this site. Anything that slows down your gambling will save you money in the long run so it is certainly not "wasted time" ;-)

Alan

Let’s look back at some history, before they coined the words:

1. Dice influencing (influencer)

2. Dice controlling (controller)

3. Dice setting (setter)

There were no [Dice Influencers, Dice Controllers or Dice Setters] back then, players would pick up the dice and send them sailing down the table, if they were playing in a casino.

Before John Scarne came along, and tried to educate the servicemen about how players were cheating them and to give them a good understanding of what they were up against when playing craps, I may be wrong on this but I don’t think there was any thing that spelled out how someone might control the dice, with some type of shot, that wasn’t some type of cheating., back then. It was only about the cheating that they were writing about!

What everyone doesn’t understand is before you had the back wall with the diamonds and craps was played on someone’s bunk or on a hard floor, in the street or just about anything they could roll the dice on. It was very easy to control the out come of the dice. That’s if you put the time into practicing your craft, there was a lot of cheating going on at the same time. I’m sure that there were a lot of people that were selling things in news papers and magazine that showed how to cheat at playing craps. Scarne wrote about how you could buy stuff that would show you how to cheat. Back then you could buy loaded dice, shaved, dice. They were call novelty dice; you can read about them starting on page 208 of his book.

Then starting on page 251 you can read about all the different shot that they used to cheat with.

Now here’s the rub, none of these shots will work on the craps tables they have today, as long as you’re not sliding the dice. Ahigh has spent more money then anybody that I know of proving this, even though that wasn’t his attention, with his slow motion videos. He might argue this point, but when you look at his videos and any other slow motion videos that shows the dice hitting the table, that is the only conclusion that you can come to if you are a reasonable person, that have not been brained washed by some of these writers on becoming a DI or anything else you want to call someone that sets the dice when they are shooting.

I use the words so-called DI, because I do know some every good shooters when it comes to shooting the dice, that others call DI’s, They have spent countless hours throwing the dice and practicing what they do. There are none of these guys that can beat a craps table every time they walk up to a table, which includes me.

Now for the so-called DI’s that hang out on the different craps boards and why I say so-called. They may have taking a class, they only play craps a few time a year and they believe anything they read that is written by our great fiction writers on the game of craps. They believe they can control the dice or influence the dice, they read about all these great rolls that the fiction writers are writing about. They believe that you have some of these guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year from the craps tables.

One of the more famous one just wrote not to long ago that he made I think it was “19,” 4,s and “20,” 10’s in one roll, therefore taking over a half million dollars off the table with a $2000 buy-in if you took the time to look at how he was pressing his bets! The so-called DI’s actually believe this kind of BS. The joke is anybody that is a DI, is laughing their ass off when they read this BS.

Nobody has an advantage on the craps table; I don’t care if everybody calls you a DI or anything else they want to call you. The DI’s and the so-called DI’s are the only ones that are keeping track of the rolls they have, so when they do have a good one everybody makes a big deal out of it. Although they don’t make a big deal out of all the PSO’s or short rolls they have!

The casinos are only looking at the good rolls that someone has, they never look at the losing ones. So they are tricked into believing that you have DI’s, because they have seen someone that is setting the dice have one of these long rolls.
While the truth of the matter is the so-called random rollers will have more good rolls then the so-called DI’s. They have to when you think about it, they out number the guys that think of themselves as being a DI by tens of thousands to one.

You only have to look at who holds the world record for the longest roll to date and that is a so-called random roller. I had the good luck of playing on the same table with Pat DeMauro the holder of the longest roll in a casino, when she was in Vegas twice in the same week. The first time she had a 45 roll and rolled a bunch of hard eights, I made money on her roll, she was just slinging the dice down the table, and they were bouncing off everything. That day she could do no wrong.

The next day was a different story, she couldn’t do anything right, and walk away before she lost too much money! I didn’t bet big on her the second day and here I had the worlds greatest shooter. Everybody just get lucky when we get on a roll, which includes the DI’s or anybody that sets the dice!

The casinos have more to fear when someone is a random roller then a so-called DI or what ever you want to call them. The random roller doesn’t have any problems when they are shooting they are just slinging the dice down the table and getting lucky. The suits can’t tell them to hit the back wall or anything else that might rattle them.

If you really want a realistically look at anybody that is shooting craps, just play PopCorn Craps. You will see fifty rolls on that machine. Now I know that our fiction writers will write that they have [AP] players that are winning money when hitting that stupid button on those machines, but really it doesn’t matter who is hitting the damn button they are just getting lucky when that happens, the same thing goes for when someone is playing WinCraps.

Basally we all get lucky when we get on a roll, I call it a trend!

Dice influencer or Controllers are one in the same. They are just words that they coined to sell classes or books. Before they coined those words everybody was just a random roller. Dice Setters, could be just about anybody on the craps tables anymore, someone will see somebody else setting the dice and try to do the same thing, hoping to repeat what the guy just did when he was shooting.

Basically just about everybody now sets the dice, does it help them, just ask the guy that had the 4 rolls of the dice, before he 7’s out if it worked!

A DI or Dice Influencer is someone that may get on good rolls, just about every time they shoot the dice and at the same time are setting the dice and making repeat number. Basically this is a matter of opinion for someone that believes in dice control.
My question to you would be what do you consider a good roll? We all have different opinions of what a good roll is. I would say that a good roll starts at anything over 15 rolls of the dice. Others don’t think so, so you make the call. If the shooter just made five 4’s in 6 rolls of the dice and I had money on the 4, I would have to say that it was a good roll, but on the other hand if I was like so many other craps player I would have never made one chip off that roll, only because most players that think they know about the game would not bet on the 4’s.

Doesn’t everybody know that the 4’s are the worst box number you can bet on, if you go by the math of the game?

I would tell anybody to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_control
Then pick apart what was written, like what Stanford Wong wrote in his book, he backed tracked on what he wrote about dice control in an interview with Bob Dancer.

http://www.bobdancer.com/mp3/gwae102711.mp3?CFID=65484348&CFTOKEN=31651067

Don’t get me wrong on what I write I do believe that it helps to take a class, if they teach about betting the game, and they are not feeling their students a bunch of BS.

I would even go so far as saying that like Ahigh I think of a DI as a good shooter. My problem is that I know a lot of good shooters that never set the dice and we bring one more thing into the mix, that is a [Rhythm Roller] Someone that doesn’t set the dice but gets on good rolls just about every time they roll the dice. They do the same thing every time the dice a thrown! For the DI’s that have been lead to believe that they are the only ones that get on long rolls I got news for you , stop and look at what happens everyday in the casinos. The so-called random rollers have some money making rolls, you just have to know how to bet the game to have the chips in your rack to take advantage of when they happen.

John Scarne is a hero of mine. But boy was he ever wrong about BJ !

Nobody is perfect and that's the trouble with someone that thinks of themselves as being a so-called DI!

By the way there is a scene in the movie "Croupier" where he is buying a book by John Scarne!

Love when Scarne gave some players 4 decks of cards and bet they could not pick out the marked deck. After an hour they were pissed and told him none were marked. Of course all 4 decks were.

And his math on an A,2, or J being on bottom of one of 3 stacks of a single deck, spot on !

Quote: superrick

I had the good luck of playing on the same table with Pat DeMauro the holder of the longest roll in a casino, when she was in Vegas twice in the same week.

Really?!

How did you KNOW it was her?

By report, she was a newbie, indeed a "virgin" roller when she uncorked her 154 rolls record; so she is not a known personality.

She is usually a casual gambler, a penny slot player, who happened to get lucky: very lucky.

So, how did you know it was her?

I would be surprised to hear you say she was puffing herself up in Las Vegas, or that she wore a placard announcing her lucky roll.

Quote: Ahigh

I personally believe without a computer, statistics, and some hard core science you are lost.

Agreed.
Though a casino can look at its bottom line and determine that anyone out there with computers hasn't yet shown up with an answer.

MrV

The one thing you have to love about us craps players is we like to talk to others that are having a good roll. Pat DeMauro happened to be in Vegas for “World Casino Championships” that was happening.

I didn’t know that it was her until my buddy, asked me if I knew who she was. He was talking to her while he was standing next to her. He told me who she was after her roll was over with. I came home and look at her picture and sure enough there she was in the photo I was looking at.

Quote:

I would be surprised to hear you say she was puffing herself up in Las Vegas, or that she wore a placard announcing her lucky roll.

He happened to be talking to her about all the hardways she was rolling at the time. She rolled three hard eights two back to back, then one after she rolled a 4. Her other hardways she rolled in the same hand was two hard 4’s back to back, then one more hard eight followed by a H10, a H4, a H10 with one more H10 before she 7 out.

Beside the back to back hardways she rolled, the other ones had other numbers in between them. I track every table that I play on and kept the copy of her rolls, and now looking at it to check out her roll, I have to take back that it was a 45 roll, it was only a 44 roll!

So no she was not trying to be the big deal at the table we were playing on! Nobody else recognized her beside my buddy, and he didn’t make a big deal about who she was!

You never know who you will bump into on the tables in Vegas; I get to see a lot of good shooters on the different tables around town. Some of the guys that everybody reads about being a DI, will be on the same tables we are playing on and just like anybody else some times they have some great hands and some times they suck!

I wouldn’t bet any differently because I know they are a DI that everybody writes about. The worst thing any DI can do is go to the tables with a bunch of DI’s when one of the schools are in town. There has been many thing written about playing with groups of DI’s and for the most part they are all bad stories, about how things went bad! The guys all over bet each shooter and when it goes bad they dig a deep hole that is hard for them to get out of!

If you happen to go to the table with one of these guys by themselves you stand a better chance of winning money by betting on them! If you told me that I could play craps with one guy out of five that was standing at a table and four of them were so-called random roller and only one of them was what we call a DI, I would pick the DI to shoot with!

When playing in Canada I’ve never seen a DI playing there, the same thing goes for a lot of other casinos I’ve played in! There are hot beds of DI’s on the gulf coast and in AC and Vegas, some players will never see a DI in the casino they play in, if they are playing in a small casino that is off the beating path! Most players will never even know that the guy that is shooting is a DI, they think the shooter is just getting lucky! I have to admit that I think along the same lines, we all just get lucky when shooting and are on a roll.

If I was so skilled that every time I hit a table, I couldn’t do anything wrong, I wouldn’t have a casino that I could play in, they would ban me! As the old saying goes casinos are built on losers, they don’t want anybody that can beat consistently! That is way then ban BJ players and yes some craps players!

Quote: superrick

Most players will never even know that the guy that is shooting is a DI, they think the shooter is just getting lucky!

This is precisely why we need some definitions about what "dice influencing" or a "dice influencer" is... so we can know what is supposed to be skill or what is luck.

For me: I look for a shooter who:

a. sets their dice in a particular way
b. has a controlled throw
c. targets the same spot on the table
d. has the same rotation on the dice while keeping the dice close together
e. the dice have minimal action on the table including the bounce on the table surface

If I don't see at least those five things I will dismiss every shooter as just being a random shooter even if they hit hardways in succession or have a 44 toss roll. This is why I dismissed Ahigh's videos as being nothing but random rolls that got lucky. Unfortunately for Ahigh he also told us how he got busted playing craps and now has to rebuild his bankroll.

Quote: superrick

You never know who you will bump into on the tables in Vegas; I get to see a lot of good shooters on the different tables around town. Some of the guys that everybody reads about being a DI, will be on the same tables we are playing on and just like anybody else some times they have some great hands and some times they suck!

Indeed.

I was shooting craps at Bellagio a couple years ago and what do you know, Doc Dice and his lady closed out a session shortly after I arrived.

Wow, I was in the presence of (self-proclaimed, anyway) "royalty."

FWIW, he seemed to be a nice guy and wasn't full of himself.

Never did get to see him shoot, alas ...

Quote: AlanMendelson

If I don't see at least those five things I will dismiss every shooter as just being a random shooter even if they hit hardways in succession or have a 44 toss roll. This is why I dismissed Ahigh's videos as being nothing but random rolls that got lucky. Unfortunately for Ahigh he also told us how he got busted playing craps and now has to rebuild his bankroll.

What the hell? Really?

If I didn't know any better, I would say that was a personal attack.

Let me pull out my notebook like Rainmain and make some notes on you, Mr. Mendelson .. the TV guy. LOL.

Ahigh

One of the major problems any so-called DI has is that they believe what they do on their practice table has anything to do with what they are doing in a real casino!

Quote:

Last night Teddy came by the house. We both started with $1,500. He got to $3,300 and I got to $7,800. I made a hundred bucks or so for the dealer too. Only funny money but we had a good time.

Playing for funny money doesn't mean a thing, so you just got lucky at home, big deal. I get lucky at home all the time. There are no other players on the table, I'm the stickman, the suit, and the shithead dealer that wants to see me lose all at the same time, but when I'm shooting all these guys want me to win.

Nobody is throwing in late bets or doing any other stupid things that will hold up the game, everybody on the table loves me, they are all playing the right side of the table, there are no dakeside players throwing in big reds trying to get me to 7 out, life is good!!!!

For someone that loves to show the data of your good rolls, you should love to see what is really happening when you are on a real table playing with real money, by writing down all your rolls.
We all have some great rolls, if we play all the time but it's those bad ones that kill us!

I can have any type of a buy-in that I want to at home, so it doesn't matter what I make on any of my rolls, what does mater is when I walk into a casino and put real money on the table. If I have a bad day I might end up blowing my bank roll can you relate to that? That doesn't happen at home all my chips stay on my table.
I could show you all the 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, rolls that I've had in real casino, the only problem would be while you were looking at those and patting me on the back you would also be looking at all those PSO's and short rolls that happened along the way.

If you play all the time you too will have those type of rolls, now the question is, are they really skill or are they just luck?

Without knowing how to bet you will be losing money when you are playing in the real casinos. I don't know how many times I've seen someone have a fifty roll and walk away from the table broke!

Start tracking you rolls in the real casinos, then if you want to tell everybody that you are the man and everybody should be betting on all those hard 8's you throw, you will have something to back up what you are writing.

Just like everybody else in life we all have our good days then we all have out bad ones too. Some players will lose every time they go into a casino, is it bad luck or just stupid betting? Wouldn't you think that these losers would figure out what they are doing wrong, if they played the game everyday?

I've talked to a few of the dealers where you played and one day one of them told me you should have been here yesterday Ahigh held the dice for 45 min's. I didn't ask about all the time that you had short rolls though!
I'm the guy that is just trying to show the reality of the game, it's a negative game that most players lose at, even when they think the are great shooters!

I give you all the credit that you deserve, for all the work you but into your videos, and working on your programs, that you are trying to figure out if you have a bias on your shooting as you put it.
The only problem with you finding a program that would show everybody what to do with the dice so they could in up with a bias on the dice if it worked, would be that there would be no casinos that had craps in them. Then your practice table would really be handy, you could have all the fun you wanted too playing craps with your funny money!

Craps has been around for thousands of years nobody has figured out a way to beat it unless they were cheating. So I don't think that we have anything to worry about with one of the programs you are working on. Ahigh I know that this is for your entertainment and you are having fun at doing it, so keep it up if that is what you love to do! I just love your videos, so please keep posting them!

My report from playing last night was just a report that we had fun.

The one time I played with you at the Silverton was one of the times I didn't have as much fun as normal. And the reason why was I have a hard time dealing with you Rick.

At one point I bet the six and eight working on the comeout during your throw, and you vocalized, "that's not a good bet."

This, in and of itself, wasn't a big deal. But it's characteristic of your behavior, Rick.

You always want to be the authority on everything.

I think Alan has similar issues (although a bit milder) in that he has the position of reporting everything and can't turn off that part of his brain and has to report things the way that he understands it constantly.

The problem that both of you guys share is that you don't really know that much about me. Either one of you. But both of you guys want to report as the authority on what's going on.

Again, Teddy is the only guy on the whole forum that knows enough about me to say much of anything really.

So I will take all these comments as what they are: just comments.

I do appreciate your interest and encouragement. It's a ton of work all the stuff that I'm doing and I am absolutely only doing it because I love doing it.

But nobody needs to feel sorry for me about anything. You can trust me on that.

And to Alan, if you want definitions that help you figure out the whole thing about dice control, you better come up with words that nobody else is using and define them yourself.

Ahigh

Again nobody is picking on you if you want to see what you rolled that day we played on the same table I can post how many hardways you rolled or any thing else that happened when I was there. Alan and myself are just pointing out some of the things you do not see for some odd reason.

Quote:

At one point I bet the six and eight working on the comeout during your throw, and you vocalized, "that's not a good bet."

This, in and of itself, wasn't a big deal. But it's characteristic of your behavior, Rick.

Did it occur to you at that time I was trying to roll 7's on the come-out and didn't want to see you lose your money?

Quote: superrick

Did it occur to you at that time I was trying to roll 7's on the come-out and didn't want to see you lose your money?

Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Ahigh I'm not going attacking you. But until someone can demonstrate to the world that they can influence or control dice (you pick the word you want) or win the game consistently I am going to question every claim that comes along.

My offer is still open to meet you at any casino with a cameraman to shoot and record your performance with the dice, and I promise you I will accurately report exactly how you did during the session.