Craps dealers: do you know anything about lay bet keys?

Most people know about keys to the stuff in the middle, hi-lo-yo stuff, etc, but today on craps someone threw in $700 to lay against the 8 and the box pretty much knew immediately that the vig was $28 where $560 wins $672. He said he had a key that he figured out himself and he wouldn't share it. I managed to get out of someone else that for this one it involves getting 4% of the amount to calculate the vig, 20 times that amount ($560) to determine what you win, and from here you can pretty easily figure out what to pay. ($500 wins $600, $60 wins $72). He refuses to share the others out of arrogance. What would they be for 4/5/9/10? It's probably not hard to figure out but I don't know where to start.

Quote: Funbox

Most people know about keys to the stuff in the middle, hi-lo-yo stuff, etc, but today on craps someone threw in $700 to lay against the 8 and the box pretty much knew immediately that the vig was $28 where $560 wins $672. He said he had a key that he figured out himself and he wouldn't share it. I managed to get out of someone else that for this one it involves getting 4% of the amount to calculate the vig, 20 times that amount ($560) to determine what you win, and from here you can pretty easily figure out what to pay. ($500 wins $600, $60 wins $72). He refuses to share the others out of arrogance. What would they be for 4/5/9/10? It's probably not hard to figure out but I don't know where to start.

Sorry. I posted up something, but I don't think I'm qualified to answer this.

5/9, 4%*16. 4/10, 4%*12. I did it all in my head, might be wrong.

The website is no more but it had zillions of keys for craps dealers. See if anyone downloaded them prior to the website's demise.
I think it was called TheCrapsDealersLounge.Com or DealersLounge.Com

I am assuming they want to keep 4% of your bet, so if you were to pass over 100, that would mean the bet is 96. The true odds is 5/6, so the true payout for 96 is 80. 80 happens to be 4/5ths of the original amount.
So the vig is 4% of the bet and the payout is 80% of the bet, i.e. $28 and $560.
Interestingly in the UK, a lay bet on the 6 or 8 pays 4/5!

Quote: charliepatrick

I am assuming they want to keep 4% of your bet, so if you were to pass over 100, that would mean the bet is 96. The true odds is 5/6, so the true payout for 96 is 80. 80 happens to be 4/5ths of the original amount.
So the vig is 4% of the bet and the payout is 80% of the bet, i.e. $28 and $560.
Interestingly in the UK, a lay bet on the 6 or 8 pays 4/5!

Vig should be paid on the WIN for a lay bet, not the BET. I haven't been following them math on this thread, but that is how it has always been done with me. Sometimes an ignorant/slimy (take your pick) pit boss will try to change me 5% on the bet, and I will correct them.

Lay the 4 for $1000? Vig is $25. (Win is 1/2 or $500, 500*.05=25)

If you purposely make the math hard for the crew, don't be upset if they fuck you.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Vig should be paid on the WIN for a lay bet, not the BET. I haven't been following them math on this thread, but that is how it has always been done with me. Sometimes an ignorant/slimy (take your pick) pit boss will try to change me 5% on the bet, and I will correct them.

Lay the 4 for $1000? Vig is $25. (Win is 1/2 or $500, 500*.05=25)

If you purposely make the math hard for the crew, don't be upset if they fuck you.

Wait....

Everyplace I have ever played charge 5% on the bet, not on the win. How do you get the casino to do otherwise?

Quote: slackyhacky

Wait....

Everyplace I have ever played charge 5% on the bet, not on the win. How do you get the casino to do otherwise?

Go to a different casino! (You haven't played EVERY place!)

Quote: slackyhacky

Wait....

Everyplace I have ever played charge 5% on the bet, not on the win. How do you get the casino to do otherwise?

Check the Wizard's page and scroll down to the section on Lay bets. It's definitely supposed to be 5% on the win amount. You have been getting hosed, I'm sorry. If you find a place doing this and after correcting the dealer they still disagree with you, and the pit boss does not agree that you are correct, find a different casino! A certain amount can be allowed for forgetfulness, but I've never had a house refuse to change it once I pointed out their error.

At my casino, it's absolutely paid on the bet and not the win. We collect the vig if it wins in preparing for the next bet, too.

Quote: Funbox

At my casino, it's absolutely paid on the bet and not the win. We collect the vig if it wins in preparing for the next bet, too.

I think you are saying the vig is collected up front. The question is though, if the bet is LAY 4 for $200, how much vig do you charge?
It should be 5% of the WIN amount of $100, or $5.
But the poster is saying he is being charged 5% of the bet amount of $200, or a $10 vig.
That is REALLY wrong

Mandalay Bay and Fiesta Henderson are the only two casinos of that I am sure is on the win rather than on the bet.

Bill's does free lays on the 4 and 10, and yet commission is still there and on the bet for the 4, 6, 8, and 9.

In _general_ there is absolutely no hard and fast rule here in Vegas, but most places do lay bets on the bet. I believe that they do this to keep the game moving. Many dealers here in Vegas (even those with over a decade experience) get confused when you start asking to buy a lay bet.

I have had casinos give me free lay bets, and I wasn't even aware of it until I asked to take the lay bet down and they didn't give me my commission back. I asked why, and they said that they gave me that one for free.

Absolutely no consistency. But they will do you favors sometimes if they know you.

Christ on a cracker, I see we've had some misunderstandings here.

There are 2 parts to the vig on a lay bet - to what amount the 5% is applied, and when the vig is charged.

In my strongly-worded post, what I meant is that the 5% vig should be charged on the win amount, as in, you should be charged 5% of the amount you stand to win on the lay bet. I'm pretty sure this is one of those hard-and-fast rules of craps, and any casino charging on the bet amount is pulling a fast one on you.

Whether they collect that vig up-front or only if the bet hits is not a hard-and-fast rule. With lay bets, I've found it's the exception rather than the rule to charge on wins only (as opposed to buy bets on the 4 and 10, where it is the rule to collect the vig on wins only).

Quote: RaleighCraps

I think you are saying the vig is collected up front. The question is though, if the bet is LAY 4 for $200, how much vig do you charge?
It should be 5% of the WIN amount of $100, or $5.
But the poster is saying he is being charged 5% of the bet amount of $200, or a $10 vig.
That is REALLY wrong

$5. We charge 5% of the win amount up front, yes.