New to BJ... need some help with understanding Hi Lo Lite

Hey everyone. Thanks for giving me the time. I'm pretty new to blackjack. I've gotten a pretty good handle of BS, and I was looking for a good system to start learning counting. I settled on Snyder's Hi Lo Lite. But There are certain aspects of it that confuse me, and I would appreciate some clarification.

1) If Hi Lo Lite uses a "true edge" rather than a true count, how does this affect how I read the indices? For example, when Snyder's table says, "Stand on a 12 vs. 2 when you have a count of +2", does this mean that the True Count is +2, or is the True Edge +2%? And if the table is using True Count numbers, what is the point of using a "true edge" calculation? How do I know what my 2% advantage in the true edge translates to in a true count?

2) I always thought Basic Strategy was the optimal strategy for an "even" deck, where the edge is no more or less than the original house edge. If that's the case, why does the 16 vs. 10 index say to stand at a count of 0 (which would mean an even deck), but BS tells you to hit?

Any help with these questions would be great. Sorry if this is boring, rookie stuff but trying to understand these indices is throwing me for a bit of a loop.

Thanks!

The reason that 16 vs 10 is a 'Hit' for Basic Strategy is that it is using a generic decision based on all of your 16's vs 10. The cards that generally form 16 vs 10 give a slightly negative count i.e. 10,6 vs 10, 9,7 vs 10 and although it's true that you could end up with 3,4,4,5 vs 10 (positive count) it doesn't come up as much as the negative or neutral ones.

I'm not sure what the Hi Lo lite is so I can't comment on the 'true' edge' - I use Snyder's Zen count which is a 2-level count. However, +2 would generally signify a +2 'running count' ... I'm guessing that Snyder's true edge count automatically converts to a 'True Count'?

I would recommend either the Hi Lo count or the Zen Count (as I found that easy to use). The type of count you should use also depends on the type of Blackjack games that you will play in the main. For 'Shoe' games the 'Zen' count seems to be good at both playing and betting correlation - I'm sure that others will point you towards counts that are high in either playing or betting correlation depending on which one suits your style of play better.

Finally, each 'True Count' generally corresponds to a 0.5% increase to the player ev. So, if you was playing a game which was -0.5% off the top then you would need to reach a true count of +5 to have approximately a 2% edge over the house.

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Quote: Switch

The reason that 16 vs 10 is a 'Hit' for Basic Strategy is that it is using a generic decision based on all of your 16's vs 10. The cards that generally form 16 vs 10 give a slightly negative count i.e. 10,6 vs 10, 9,7 vs 10 and although it's true that you could end up with 3,4,4,5 vs 10 (positive count) it doesn't come up as much as the negative or neutral ones.

Thank you for the clarification. It helped a great deal.

Quote: Switch

I'm not sure what the Hi Lo lite is so I can't comment on the 'true' edge' - I use Snyder's Zen count which is a 2-level count. However, +2 would generally signify a +2 'running count' ... I'm guessing that Snyder's true edge count automatically converts to a 'True Count'?

As best as I can understand it, according to Snyder's "Blackbelt in Blackjack", the "True Edge" is supposed to be an easier method of determining your actual (dis)advantage relative to the number of decks remaining. But instead of giving you a count, it gives you a % advantage. For instance, if your running count is +6, and you have two decks left, then your "True Edge" is 6 / 2(2) = 1.5%, and then subtract your off-the-top disadvantage of approx. 0.5% and you have a 1% advantage, according to the True Edge. What I'm supposed to be doing with this knowledge is what's throwing me. I mean, if I have to convert the true edge into a true count before I do anything with the indices, then I might as well just calculate the True Count right off the bat.

Quote: Switch

I would recommend either the Hi Lo count or the Zen Count (as I found that easy to use). The type of count you should use also depends on the type of Blackjack games that you will play in the main. For 'Shoe' games the 'Zen' count seems to be good at both playing and betting correlation - I'm sure that others will point you towards counts that are high in either playing or betting correlation depending on which one suits your style of play better.

Zen seems a bit too tough for me to start out with, considering it is a Level 2 count. Hi Lo Lite is pretty much the same as Hi Lo, only with condensed indices and this True Edge thing. I have to think Snyder lied about the true edge being easier. If you're required to do an extra calculation, I don't see the point.

Quote: JVIPER88

Hi Lo Lite is pretty much the same as Hi Lo, only with condensed indices and this True Edge thing. I have to think Snyder lied about the true edge being easier. If you're required to do an extra calculation, I don't see the point.

Unless it's got something to do with helping you choose the correct amount to wager then I agree with you. In your example, with a +6 count and 2 decks left, it's easy to divide RC by number of decks to get a True Count of +3. I don't know why you would need to add an extra calculation (although it's simple this way) and use 0.5% per TC = 1.5% then subtract the initial house edge off the top.

Most deviations from strategy, that I'm aware of, are based on True Count Indices. So, in your example, with a +3 count you would use the deviations that came in at +1,+2 & +3.

If you think that a level 2 count would be too difficult to start with (although Zen does not sidecount Aces), then I would stick with the simple Hi Lo (especially if it's similar) and use a selection of positive True Count Indices to adjust your plays - Illustrious 18 comes to mind.

If I've overlooked anything about this 'True Edge' thing then I'm sure one of the posters will be able to clarify that for you.