How does my game fare?

I was just wondering about how the members here feel about my BJ games. As I very much enjoy reading everyone's posts and getting advice from everyone on here, i figured i would post my rules and see what you peeps say.

Thank you all in advance for all input and advice!!!

8D( 2 games are machine shuffeled and the rest are hand shuffleled, not counting my High Stakes room)
ES, H17, RSA, DAS

2D( 1 game is machine shuffeled and the other 2 are not)
S, H17, D8-11, RAS, DAS

and here is my major downside...we have an ANTE (i know i know, please keep reading) it is $.50/hand unless you have a players club card and are betting $20(then i pay the ANTE).

I offer 15 BJ games and 3 carnival games.

Limits are:
$1-20 (i have posted about this game before)
$2-100/8D
$5-200/8D
$15-300/8D
$100-2000/8D
$10-200/ DD
$25-500/DD
$50-1000/DD

We are very player freindly and have no problem rasing limits are making special tables for a player that warrants it.

Is this a casino or a private set up that you have for parties and what not... It kind of sounds like an Oklahoma casino.

To be honest, Oklahoma casinos often time have games that offer near 0% house edge and possibly venture into positive territory with various promotions. Of course, you pay for it in the forced ante that can get up to $1 per hand depending on the size of your bet. This negates any good rules... unless the casino is running an ante-free time.

I found a DD game at a podunk casino in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma. Rules were S17, penetration about 65%, DAS, DA2, RSA, no surrender. However, there was also a 6-7-8 3:2 payout, 7-7-7 3:2 and 2:1 on suited BJs. Those rules are fantastic, until you factor in the ante. On top of that, the cards were about as awful as they could be. Downstream Casino had a 7-7-7 promotion too, and you don't pay the ante there... however, the rules weren't QUITE as good, though still pretty good because of competition.

Granted, this was more than 3 years ago, so who knows what it's like now...

WOW, that ANTE thing scared everyone away. lol

Quote: ShiftyRicky

WOW, that ANTE thing scared everyone away. lol

as it should,
paying for the priveledge of submitting to a negative expectation...no thanks
ps...you don't offer 15 BJ games and 3 carnival games, you offer 18 carnival games

Quote: ShiftyRicky

WOW, that ANTE thing scared everyone away. lol

I guess being in the middle of nowhere, which I am assuming you are, allows you to get away with Ante, but dont expect good feedback on the games on this site.

But you are in the business of making money and if you get players willing to pay, you are winning the battle.

Tiltpoul- I am a Oklahoma casino, matter of fact I am just down the interstate from Downstream.

I forgot to add we have free ante Sun-Fri 12am-4pm.

Our ante is flat it never goes up because of the size of the bet. We used to have that, and I fought tooth and nail to change it. I am still working on the no ANTE thing.

Just a little more info: my casino is one of 7 in a 30 mile radius; we are the second biggest in the area; all BJ's pay 3:2; i do run promotions; and we are the most easiest PIT to get a comp from...i would say any where.

I posted this just to get an opinon on my rules. I understand the ANTE thing BLOWS, but without the ANTE would you play in my casino?
I post things like this to get opinons from players outside my demographic and to see how better i can make my PIT. ( i know, drop the ANTE)

Ricky,

Any chance of adding any new games..... Such as Pai Gow poker? :)

It kinda sucks around here ever since Downstream got rid of it. Hehe

cestanl- I am currently in the process of bringing in some new games, sadly not pai Gow. :(

" D8-11 " Really No doubling on 7 or less ? REALLY? How much do you think this increases the HE. My guess is 00.0001%

" you have a players club card and are betting $20(then i pay the ANTE)." How about you split the ante . pay25 cents to the house,
pay me $25. Seems fair to me. LOL

Please take into consideration that almost all the member who post here regularly have only played 6/5 Bj by mistake, while drunk, or to sit next to a hot babe !

I would never play a blackjack game that required an ante, and you are eliminating a lot of potential players by charging the ante to everyone betting less than $20. The way a see it a large percentage of players come to a local casino armed with a couple hundred bucks and looking for a good gamble and a good time. Maybe they play some video poker, maybe even some penny slots, but then they will come to the blackjack table. If a guy comes with say 200 bucks you are going to bust then in a few hours if they are paying that ante every time. If someone wants to play $15 I would assume if they have any brains they will go up to 20 or not play at all. If they are a $5 player and they are paying 50 cents a hand to play that's almost as bad as the thugs in Detroit and Chicago charging .25 to bet $1. At some point you have to realize that while you are getting the suckers and "sucking" all of their money away, you are losing out on a ton of gamblers who would be more loyal to your joint. If I came with 100 or 200 every weekend and lost it every time over my few hours of play I would stop playing pretty quick, so unless you have a huge population of young drunks or just uneducated people frequenting your casino (which may be the case), I would really suggest pushing harder for a rule change. After hearing about the ante when I heard that you H17 I just laughed a little bit, do you really need to add even more house edge on top of the ante?

I guess for high limit players these rules wouldn't be too bad, but for your average joe this is atrocious to say the least. I'd rather play keno.

That is only on the DD game. The 8D game is DA2.

I have been thinking of going to DA2 on DD, we would be the first and only in the area.

Why not? Sure seems a cheap enough incentive to attract action .

I guess no one has ever brought it up. Before Downstream opened (which is a big fancy new casino, closer to the MO border) we were the premier joint.

I will pitch that at my next meeting. Thank you buzz!!!

winmonkey- we are always full of young drunks, we are the biggest bar in the area and have concerts and nightclub every FRI. I 100% agree with your "sucking" the average joe out of playing.

The way the Big casino up the stream gets away with NO ANTE is, they take it off your players comp points. This makes it really hard to move up in card status or get comps for that matter.

We charge ANTE, but are very generous with our comps, and it is fairly easy to move up in our system (prestige members never pay ANTE). I have tried pitching that we do the same as the boys up the stream, uppers are scared of it for some reason. If I still had the volme of players as they did when they were THE JOINT, it would not be an issue, but do to the fact that the BIG one is closer to MO, they get alot of the traffic now.

Quote: buzzpaff

" D8-11 " Really No doubling on 7 or less ? REALLY? How much do you think this increases the HE. My guess is 00.0001%

what this mean is no doubling on soft totals
A2, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7...
or can we count A7 as 8?

if i were the proprietor of a game with these rules, i sure would not post about it on the internet...

Quote: ShiftyRicky

8D( 2 games are machine shuffeled and the rest are hand shuffleled, not counting my High Stakes room)
ES, H17, RSA, DAS

Does "ES" here mean early surrender? If so, a $20 bet allows you to play with those rules and no ante?

Quote: ShiftyRicky

2D( 1 game is machine shuffeled and the other 2 are not)
S, H17, D8-11, RAS, DAS

Does the "S" mean Late Surrender? Does D8-11 mean no soft doubling? Should RAS be RSA?

Quote: ShiftyRicky

and here is my major downside...we have an ANTE (i know i know, please keep reading) it is $.50/hand unless you have a players club card and are betting $20(then i pay the ANTE).

Since you didn't mention it specifically I had to look up the fact that the Oklahoma compacts require player banked games. Unlike most I've seen, you are allowed to keep 10% of the net win. Also, nice phrasing, "then I pay the ANTE". By that you mean no ante is charged.

I feel for you that you have to charge an ante each round. That sucks. You're not going to be able to get rid of that until the law changes. Do all the casinos in your area follow similar rules in that a $20+ bet with a card doesn't require an ante?

wow! friends and neighbors it seems if you are searching for favorable rules you better check out the evergreen state. Iplay in trible casino"s and card rooms alike. they all seem to have way better rules than what i see all over vegas and anywhere else. i can find a 3-500 game, split 3 times including aces double anything first 2 cards, surrender, deep penatration, dealer stands soft 17. bj pays 3-2. these are six deck games double deck a little different i recently played at a trible casino with the above format and they were also having a promation where suited bj payed 2-1 but they shut that down dang it. Oh and for those running games perhaps putting more effort into getting more people to play your games vs trying to ring every nickle out of it would br better.

Quote: buzzpaff

" D8-11 " Really No doubling on 7 or less ? REALLY? How much do you think this increases the HE. My guess is 00.0001%

0.09%

For those people dogging on the Ante, as it's kind of been pointed out, Oklahoma regulations require that the games be player banked. To accomplish this, they charge an Ante. Yes, it sucks, and there are casinos that pick up the cost of the Antes (i.e. Downstream).

As I said, I haven't been there in about 3 years, but the rules used to be really good. The rules you provide are okay, but H17 instead of S17 gives the house enough of an edge. What are the standards these days? You provide YOUR rules, but if the rest of the casinos offer S17, then you would be at a competitive disadvantage.

Quote: weaselman

0.09%

Of course that is with perfect Basic Strategy, which is seldom displayed by the average player. Of course, if all players played perfectly, then the only table open would be those with an ante.

Quote: Tiltpoul

For those people dogging on the Ante, as it's kind of been pointed out, Oklahoma regulations require that the games be player banked. To accomplish this, they charge an Ante. Yes, it sucks, and there are casinos that pick up the cost of the Antes (i.e. Downstream).

I don't understand how charging an ante makes it player banked if the ante does not even depend on the size of the bet?

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Quote: weaselman

I don't understand how charging an ante makes it player banked if the ante does not even depend on the size of the bet?

I meant to say "non-house banked". The bill that allowed Class III slots in Oklahoma (read here if you're really bored) also allowed for non-house banked card games. That usually means poker but the casinos can also run other table games so long as the casino win from the game is redistributed to the guests in someway such as promotions, bonus payouts, etc. In OK the state takes 10% of the win and the tribe is allowed to keep 10% of the win as operating costs.

If their 8 deck game really offers early surrender then the off the top edge is 0.06% (plus the cut card effect). That's not a bad game at all (EDIT: If you're playing $20+ a hand). The true test will be how their rules change when/if house banked games are legalized.

Quote: PopCan

I meant to say "non-house banked". The bill that allowed Class III slots in Oklahoma also allowed for non-house banked card games. That usually means poker but the casinos can also run other table games so long as the casino win from the game is redistributed to the guests in someway such as promotions, bonus payouts, etc. In OK the state takes 10% of the win and the tribe is allowed to keep 10% of the win as operating costs.

The other thing is all casinos have to collect the Ante. Whether they charge it to the customer or pick up the cost is their choice. I don't imagine ShiftyRicky has any say in whether he can pay for it or not.

I'm actually defending him. Yes, it's a terrible game when they charge an Ante, but this isn't the $1 games in AC where the ante is imposed by the casino; this is regulation. Those AC games are like 6:5 BJ, the OK games are just the way of life. I wouldn't go out of my way to play in OK, but if I lived there, I'd at least understand.

First, i would like to thank everyone, again for the input. Now, to answer some questions;

Rules at other Casinos-there is 1 casino around here that is S17, though the limits at that casino a kept low; we are the only casino to offer ES and Late surrender; NO ONE in the area offer DA2 on any DD game. there is 1 SD game around that you can.

Popcan and Tilt are both correct...we have to give so much back to the player, ie promos. We give away cars, bikes, boats, hell we gave a house away once!

When i say "I pay the ANTE", the casno pays it...we move a $.50 (or whatever the total is for the hand) chip to the ante tube, and eventually it gets dropped in an ANTE box.

I do offer EARLY SURRENDER on our 8D games and LATE SURRENDER on our DD games.

I did mean RSA...up to 4 hands on all games, with 1 card/ace

The ANTE rules are different at every joint around here, some charge, some don't.

As far as posting my rules, I have strictly started this thread to get input from players that know what they are talking about and from the AP's and math members...in an attempt to make my casino better for the player without giving it away.

Quote: ShiftyRicky

Tiltpoul- I am a Oklahoma casino, matter of fact I am just down the interstate from Downstream.

I forgot to add we have free ante Sun-Fri 12am-4pm.

I knew you were from Buffalo run from the very first post in this thread.

Quote: ShiftyRicky

BJ's pay 3:2; i do run promotions; and we are the most easiest PIT to get a comp from...i would say any where.

True, B R is quick to give comps but you are also quick to throw players out, add their pictures to national databases, and spread false information about them including mistaking a stone cold ploppy as an AP who has never even stepped foot in your casino. All this hostility towards players who are paying an ante to play your game. If I pay an ante to play a game then I have a right to the players pool the same as any other player. I don't understand the sweat of the players pool money in many of the OK casinos unless there is skimming going on. The players pool money is intended to be returned to the players. The casino is only supposed to make money on the antes. Basically just like a poker rake. Why do they sweat the players pool so hard??

Quote: PopCan

I meant to say "non-house banked". The bill that allowed Class III slots in Oklahoma (read here if you're really bored) also allowed for non-house banked card games. That usually means poker but the casinos can also run other table games so long as the casino win from the game is redistributed to the guests in someway such as promotions, bonus payouts, etc. In OK the state takes 10% of the win and the tribe is allowed to keep 10% of the win as operating costs.

I'm not sure if Ricky's casino is skimming from the players pool as they do a lot of big giveaways as he mentioned, but there are many casinos in OK that hardly ever do any types of giveaways or returns to the players. I've even been told by a pit manager at one casino that they've never done any giveaways or promotions in the years she's been there. How can this be following the law? Many OK casinos are also extremely hostile towards brain using patrons. I'm more frightened of a physical assault by casino goons in that state then any other state in the country. Some of the casinos have even tried to openly steal 1,000's of dollars in chips from players. The self regulation of these casinos and lack of transparency of the players pool accounting is sickening!

Pop Can I went to that link. Found a definition of non-house banked games on page 29, but nothing about house banked games. Or did I miss it ?

Did find this interesting :

TCA shall not license and shall revoke a license
previously issued to, any covered game employee who:
a. has been convicted of any felony or an offense related
to any covered games or other gaming activity,

Not sure if still true, but in 1990 when Colorado legalized gaming, you could be an axe murderer and if served full sentence, including any probation , 5 years after that point you could get a license. My instructor at BJ school had been a butcher, charged and found guilty with a felony about poaching. Moved to Colorado and had to wait 6 months till his 5 years was up.

But God forbid you ever got busted when vice had to make it look like they were doing something, raided a social club, and you got ticketed for misdemeanor gambling. Life time barred from a license. Upon reflection, that is only fair. A friend explained it to me.
That misdemeanor mean you have committed the ultimate crime against the state.

RECREATION WITHOUT TAXATION !!

frankly, i have always hated everything about oklahoma,
from the scenery to the politics,
to the sanctimonious bigoted pseudo christians.
i can now add the casinos to my list.

OOPS my bad. Rereading thread DUH !!

Quote: ShiftyRicky

...we are the only casino to offer ES and Late surrender;

Are there any catches to your Early Surrender (e.g. can only Early Surrender to a 10)? If not, wow. I'd use a cover-heavy 1-3 spread with a high playing efficiency count and I'd do some nice damage to that game. The funny thing is I'd bet you guys sweat your 0.47% edge DD much more than your 8D game which is off the top positive to the player if you explained your rules correctly.

Quote: ShiftyRicky

When i say "I pay the ANTE", the casno pays it...we move a $.50 (or whatever the total is for the hand) chip to the ante tube, and eventually it gets dropped in an ANTE box.

OH. MY. GOD. You viciously clever bastards! YOU are not paying the ante, the PLAYERS' POOL is paying the ante. You take $0.50 out of the rack, the gambling proceeds of the game you're not supposed to get revenue from, and drop it in the ante box. You Oklahoma guys are skimming the players' pool! That's incredibly ballsy, I applaud you. Given that the state takes 10% of the players' pool I have no idea why they let you get away with that other than ignorance on the state's part. The reason your execs won't let you pay the ante of the lower limit players is because you'd quickly run the players' pool dry.

Quote: buzzpaff

Of course that is with perfect Basic Strategy, which is seldom displayed by the average player. Of course, if all players played perfectly, then the only table open would be those with an ante.

When weaselman said 0.09% he wasn't talking about not being able to double 8; the 0.09% difference comes from losing the ability to double soft totals. Even the average player who doesn't strictly follow BS will still make several correct soft doubles. If you'll allow me to make up a number, I'd guess that the effect is around 0.04-0.05% to the average player.

please do not share any AP information with the casino personnel on this site.

' When weaselman said 0.09% he wasn't talking about not being able to double 8; the 0.09% difference comes from losing the ability to double soft totals. Even the average player who doesn't strictly follow BS will still make several correct soft doubles. If you'll allow me to make up a number, I'd guess that the effect is around 0.04-0.05% to the average player. "

That is what I was trying to express. Sometimes I wonder if English should really be my first language.

Quote: PopCan

OH. MY. GOD. You viciously clever bastards! YOU are not paying the ante, the PLAYERS' POOL is paying the ante. You take $0.50 out of the rack, the gambling proceeds of the game you're not supposed to get revenue from, and drop it in the ante box. You Oklahoma guys are skimming the players' pool! That's incredibly ballsy, I applaud you. Given that the state takes 10% of the players' pool I have no idea why they let you get away with that other than ignorance on the state's part. The reason your execs won't let you pay the ante of the lower limit players is because you'd quickly run the players' pool dry.

Yeah, that's how I remember them doing it at Downstream. The thing is, to me, it didn't matter on my one trip there. Everything seemingly functions as a casino, and I didn't even realize they were collecting antes for about an hour. I knew they had to get around it somehow, but I wasn't sure how they were doing it. As far as the State, I'm pretty sure the Tribal Councils could care less as long as they get their cut...

I have a Buffalo Run chip in my collection, but for the life of me I can't remember which one it was. I think it was one that was relatively nice (for OK) and I believe I did play that DD game. I remember the rules WERE S17, and I was there at a non-ante paying time, so I hit it hard. The other thing that struck me as odd was a live 3-card Poker game with $2 mins. Pair Plus bet was the generous 4-1 on flush.

Quote: Tiltpoul

As far as the State, I'm pretty sure the Tribal Councils could care less as long as they get their cut...

I'm not talking about Tribal Councils, I'm talking about the actual state. Here's an excerpt from the Senate bill that allowed Oklahoma gaming to exist as it does today:

Quote: SB 1252

1. The tribe covenants and agrees to pay to the state a fee
derived from covered game revenues calculated as set forth in
paragraph 2 of this subsection. Such fee shall be paid no later
than the twentieth day of the month for revenues received by the
tribe in the preceding month; and
2. The fee shall be:
...
d. ten percent (10%) of the monthly net win of the common
pool(s) or pot(s) from which prizes are paid for
nonhouse-banked card games. The tribe is entitled to
keep an amount equal to state payments from the common
pool(s) or pot(s) as part of its cost of operating the
games.

That means that the casinos are actually removing money from the pool that gets taxed and dropping it in their own coffers which is safe from state taxes.

When I first read about ShiftyRicky "paying" the antes of $20+ bettors I dismissed it thinking he meant no ante was dropped at all. Then when I read "we move a $.50...chip to the ante tube" it was the same twist-ending feeling I got from watching The Sixth Sense/Fight Club/etc. My jaw dropped reading that.

Ok Can anyone enlighten me? How does it work, who deals, what is the ante per hand, who collect it, etc. I know the house has to make money, that's a given !!!

Sure, it's tricky at first. The law is based around the idea of poker rooms where the casino doesn't act as the house; rather the house facilitates action between players. This what is meant by "non-house banked card games". The casinos interpret that to mean any game where the outcome is determined by cards and the house does not profit from the gambling aspect of the game. Instead the casino charges a per-round ante/collection/rake. This can be done in one of three ways:

-Player Banked: The games can be player banked. Each game must have a player that's willing to cover the action of all other players on the game. If 5 players want to play blackjack at $10 a hand then there must be a 6th player to bank the game with at least enough money to cover the highest possible payout ($400 if DAS is allowed). The game is dealt by a standard, casino-employed dealer but all pay & takes are done from the banking player's chips. The table's rack is used solely for buy-ins, cheque change, and coloring up.

-Players' Pool: The win/loss from the game is collected into a separate pool of money administered by the casino. This money MUST be returned to the players in the form of bonuses and/or promotions. Examples would include: Three suited sevens wins $x,xxx, car giveaways, etc. The casino may or may not be allowed to take some administrative fee out of this pool. Oklahoma takes 10% out for the state in fees and allows the casino to also take 10% for administrative purposes.

-Both: The casino may be allowed to do both. Players can optionally bank the game. If a player decides to bank and can't cover all the action on the table then the pool will cover the rest.

In all the above examples the casino will generally charge each player (and banker, if there is one) a fee to play the game. It may be a flat fee or it may scale with the bet. This ante/fee is (ostensibly) the only way the house will profit from the game, similar to poker. The game itself, other than the ante, will usually be indistinguishable from a standard casino game. All the procedures are the same, cards are the same, probabilities are the same, etc.

Now maybe you can see the shady, yet beautiful, move the Oklahoma casinos are pulling. They're having the pool pay the ante for some or all of the players. In other words, they're taking $0.50 per hand from the pool they're supposed to redistribute back to players and giving it to themselves. The beauty is that since they're saving the player from having to pay that $0.50/hand they're technically distributing the money back to players in the form of the fee. The problem with what they're doing is that win is usually recorded by shift or at least by day. Since they're constantly draining the rack of money their win drops substantially and therefore the 10% the state gets is also significantly reduced. Brilliant.

Quote: PopCan

Now maybe you can see the shady, yet beautiful, move the Oklahoma casinos are pulling. They're having the pool pay the ante for some or all of the players. In other words, they're taking $0.50 per hand from the pool they're supposed to redistribute back to players and giving it to themselves. The beauty is that since they're saving the player from having to pay that $0.50/hand they're technically distributing the money back to players in the form of the fee. The problem with what they're doing is that win is usually recorded by shift or at least by day. Since they're constantly draining the rack of money their win drops substantially and therefore the 10% the state gets is also significantly reduced. Brilliant.

Thanks for clarifying... I mostly understood how it worked, but you provided a bit more that I didn't quite get. It will also help gamblers appalled by the Ante understand WHY they have to do it that way.

To be fair, the Ante is usually collected in separate chips (if I remember correctly). For example, the player $.50 chips may be pink, but the Ante chips are yellow. That gets collected up to about $25, where another $25 Ante chips gets dropped into the drop box. By using those different chips, they may be able to clarify what money is in the player pool vs. money that's being taken out for "promotional purposes." Again, I haven't been to OK for years, but I remember at Downstream (where I played for about 4 hours) that they had different colored Ante chips. I collect those, and wanted one, but the dealer said she couldn't sell those.

Back to the OP's original question. Knowing that the competition still S17, I don't find the rules are all that competitive. Yes, Early Surrender is very nice, as is RSA. I'm just not sure I would go out of my way to play there for those rules.

Btw, there are TONS of casinos in Oklahoma, so I'm sure the State is getting its share... not justifying finding a way of getting around it, but with as many casinos as there are, the larger ones that pay the ante get more people, making the "player pool" bigger, and thus getting taxed more.

deleted

Quote: Tiltpoul

To be fair, the Ante is usually collected in separate chips (if I remember correctly).

I was thinking they might be doing something like that since paying from the pool seems so insane, but I'm not convinced that they aren't paying for it out of the pool. I hope StickyRicky can clarify.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Back to the OP's original question. Knowing that the competition still S17, I don't find the rules are all that competitive. Yes, Early Surrender is very nice, as is RSA. I'm just not sure I would go out of my way to play there for those rules.

I'll admit I could be missing something but that 8 deck game is off the top positive for the player with ES. I'd love to play there, betting $20 or more of course.

Quote: Tiltpoul

Btw, there are TONS of casinos in Oklahoma, so I'm sure the State is getting its share... not justifying finding a way of getting around it, but with as many casinos as there are, the larger ones that pay the ante get more people, making the "player pool" bigger, and thus getting taxed more.

Yes, I'm sure the state gets a decent amount. In addition, many of these players will also play the slots where the state gets a better cut.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I will never, ever, again play in ANY indian casino unless it is regulated by the state and I encourage others to follow suit.

All tribes are self regulated to an extent. The tribe creates its own gaming commission. However, the National Indian Gaming Commission has a set of MICS (minimum internal control standards) that the tribes must follow. The NIGC MICS meet or exceed the Nevada Control Board's MICS in most areas. Then the tribes add their own policies in addition to the MICS. Because of that I don't have any problems playing in a tribal casino. The only concern I'd ever have is that some lawsuits can only be brought against the tribe in tribal courts.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Being self regulated is like me telling you to come to my house and play my crooked game and in top of that, if you win legally, I will steal from you and call you a cheater. Will never happen in a state regulated commercial casino but HAS in indian casinos.

It won't happen in a state regulated casino? Allow me to present Exhibit CAA: James Grosjean at Caesars. He was backroomed and thrown in jail over a non-cheating AP play. If a casino, tribal or otherwise, were to try to steal from a player they have recourse through the state. Most tribal casinos deal with a lot of locals so it's in their best interest to not appear in the newspapers over dumb things like this.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Being self regulated is like me telling you to come to my house and play my crooked game and in top of that, if you win legally, I will steal from you and call you a cheater. Will never happen in a state regulated commercial casino but HAS in indian casinos.

I would argue that the definition of the word "legally" matters a lot in your statement. Commercial casinos have absolutely treated card counters in the way you describe, but counting is legal...

Didn't one of the Detroit casinos also severely mistreat some of their video poker players?

deleted, off topic

They mistreated them but it was just a standard trespass-style barring. You can read article about it here.

Quote: PopCan

I'll admit I could be missing something but that 8 deck game is off the top positive for the player with ES. I'd love to play there, betting $20 or more of course.

OP has yet to clarify whether this is early surrender against tens AND aces. I suspect it is only against tens, but who knows.

Even with early surrender against both, I think the game still has a slight edge for the house, since it's 8 decks and H17. This link which you provided shows a 0.06% house edge off the top, not player edge.