Advantage BJ players and "Players Club" cards?

Just trying to get an informed opinion on whether it would provide an avenue for tracking certain players they suspect could be counting on each casino visit. Thanks yall!

deleted

They might check your name against a database to see if you are on any of those national (or internal) card counter lists. Or if they ever do figure out you are counting, if they do provide your likeness to any of those sites, they they would have your real name instead of listing you as "unknown". It shouldn't be a risk unless you are getting backed off regularly.

If you are on their radar for something serious they already know more information about you than is on your players club card.

I voted "No" because when I'm betting the "real" money (which for me is $25 units and usually in Vegas) I never play on a card, for fear of burning out my name. My fears are probably unwarranted at my level, but I'm paranoid.

At the 2 local cardrooms where I play, I have cards, but my spread is even lower (generally $5-$100 or sometimes 2x$75). I don't use any cover but basically am trying to fly under the radar while I essentially just practice and keep my skills sharp for peanuts. I have amassed some decent comp dollars at these places that I spend on meals.

I would like to get the comps in Vegas when I play BJ as well...I'm thinking of getting a legal alias, a new ID, and getting player's cards under that name. It's all above-board, but if you get 86'd and tracked in Griffen/OSN/etc., at least they don't have your real name...

Yes, players cards are one of the primary ways that casinos can track players, including advantage players.

Consider this: You run into a really hot shoe at NYNY in Vegas and spread to your max bet early on, gaining the attention of several floorpersons and the pit boss. You get very lucky during this shoe and win an amount that prompts an automatic tape review and subsequent skills check. The skills check results in a determination that you are a strong card counter and that you are to be backed-off during your next visit.

Scenario A: You played the session rated. The casino not only knows who you are, they can also review tapes of other sessions you played (to provide a larger sample size for a skills check). Your card is flagged, so the next time it gets swiped when you sit at a table, you'll get a tap on the shoulder. You can try and use it at the Beau Rivage in Biloxi, or the MGM Grand in Detroit, or any number of other MGM-affiliated casino and your identity will be toast.

Scenario B: You played unrated. The casino does not know who you are, can not cross-reference your play with previous sessions, can not flyer you to other casinos (within the chain network or to outside services), can not look up your name in surveillance network databases, and can not flag you for a back-off next time you play a session on a different shift, or at a different casino, etc.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Yes, players cards are one of the primary ways that casinos can track players, including advantage players.

Consider this: You run into a really hot shoe at NYNY in Vegas and spread to your max bet early on, gaining the attention of several floorpersons and the pit boss. You get very lucky during this shoe and win an amount that prompts an automatic tape review and subsequent skills check. The skills check results in a determination that you are a strong card counter and that you are to be backed-off during your next visit.

Scenario A: You played the session rated. The casino not only knows who you are, they can also review tapes of other sessions you played (to provide a larger sample size for a skills check). Your card is flagged, so the next time it gets swiped when you sit at a table, you'll get a tap on the shoulder. You can try and use it at the Beau Rivage in Biloxi, or the MGM Grand in Detroit, or any number of other MGM-affiliated casino and your identity will be toast.

Scenario B: You played unrated. The casino does not know who you are, can not cross-reference your play with previous sessions, can not flyer you to other casinos (within the chain network or to outside services), can not look up your name in surveillance network databases, and can not flag you for a back-off next time you play a session on a different shift, or at a different casino, etc.

What level are we talking about? I'm sure that no one who bets 5-25 as a minimum would have to worry about this... winning 1000 or 2000 is a drop in the bucket compared to those who play 50+ minimum. I don't think you're going to raise too many flags sitting at a low table

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Consider this: You run into a really hot shoe at NYNY in Vegas and spread to your max bet early on, gaining the attention of several floorpersons and the pit boss. You get very lucky during this shoe and win an amount that prompts an automatic tape review and subsequent skills check. The skills check results in a determination that you are a strong card counter and that you are to be backed-off during your next visit.

Why care about getting backed-off if you've won? You got the money. Even for very good counters, the game is far closer to minimum wage than an ATM machine. I would look at it as McDonalds offering a 20-year-old a severance package (and if you lose big in a high count, at least your meals, rooms and possibly even gas gets covered)

Spreading between green and black casinos might start to sweat, but they will go through a lot of stuff before an ultimate ban: early shuffle, raise the minimums, refuse to let you spread

My understanding from people who have done it for enough hours and enough years: Up to $200 bets the worst that will happen is they'll ask to leave just for that day and take away any points. Up to $500 and they might not want any of your action on the game, but that's also when the rooms, meals, free-play can actually start adding nicely to your edge

For myself, I like to keep it between $5 and $20, break-even and then let one buffet pass cover all nutritional requirements for at least 24 hours. An occasional free-play or match-play in the mail. If I ever feel like gambling I'll even buy in for $200, flat bet reds until the count is sky high and shove all in. Some people know what is going on, but act polite, don't stiff on tips and they don't really care

Get caught in team play and they won't ever let you sit down to play again

deleted

Quote: TomG

Why care about getting backed-off if you've won? You got the money. Even for very good counters, the game is far closer to minimum wage than an ATM machine. I would look at it as McDonalds offering a 20-year-old a severance package (and if you lose big in a high count, at least your meals, rooms and possibly even gas gets covered)

Spreading between green and black casinos might start to sweat, but they will go through a lot of stuff before an ultimate ban: early shuffle, raise the minimums, refuse to let you spread

My understanding from people who have done it for enough hours and enough years: Up to $200 bets the worst that will happen is they'll ask to leave just for that day and take away any points. Up to $500 and they might not want any of your action on the game, but that's also when the rooms, meals, free-play can actually start adding nicely to your edge

For myself, I like to keep it between $5 and $20, break-even and then let one buffet pass cover all nutritional requirements for at least 24 hours. An occasional free-play or match-play in the mail. If I ever feel like gambling I'll even buy in for $200, flat bet reds until the count is sky high and shove all in. Some people know what is going on, but act polite, don't stiff on tips and they don't really care

Good card counters make a percentage of the total amount of money they bet. You can't lump all counters together by saying they make minimum wage.

Many backoffs come without warning these days and it will not be just for the day. If you were playing rated, try giving your card the next day and see what happens.

Get caught in team play and they won't ever let you sit down to play again

Quote: TomG

Why care about getting backed-off if you've won? You got the money. Even for very good counters, the game is far closer to minimum wage than an ATM machine.

I don't play minimum wage games, and I like to be able to play more than one or two sessions in my lifetime per property. I don't really have a "home base" per se, but the consolidation of casinos by just a few major players (MGM, Harrah's, etc.) makes identity exposure a real risk.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Why care? For some pros, this is their only source of income and is probably a lot more than minimum wage. Betting 5-25 might barely get you $7 an hour but 50-1000 will earn alot more.

If someone truly is good enough to earn at least $40 or $50k per year they already know how the system works. At that level using cover should be expected and that's exactly what they're doing. But until you reach that level it rarely increases your income to avoid comps -- and almost always either increases expenses or decreases working conditions

Of course those guys also know they're capable of earning $100 000 per year just by doubling their average bet. They also know at that level the casino will figure things out real quick whether you give them ID or not

(you really believe a $5 to $25 spread comes anywhere close to $7 per hour without comps? That means I could start spreading $50 to $250 and be earning $70 per hour long term?)

deleted

Quote: LonesomeGambler

I don't play minimum wage games, and I like to be able to play more than one or two sessions in my lifetime per property. I don't really have a "home base" per se, but the consolidation of casinos by just a few major players (MGM, Harrah's, etc.) makes identity exposure a real risk.

What level are you playing? You'll almost always know when the heat is coming. If you do use a card and they stiff you on comps it's no loss. Even if you aren't using a card, they'll still shuffle early. They'll still be just as quick to force you to flat bet. And if that stuff does happen when you're letting them track you just come back next week without using your players card

And until you're betting over a couple black chips per hand it's unlikely to see that stuff happen

I beat your aces,
you ever see any heat sitting at a table betting $10 to $200?

Every few weeks I'll buy in for $200, flat bet $5 and if I see a good enough count, bet everything on one hand. Then walk away whether it wins or loses

Other times I bet just enough to earn a buffet -- the best I'll see is about a 1% edge on a $20 bet

Never had a problem and free-play and match-play coupons they mail me are worth about $50 per month

Earning a few dollars from whatever your hobby is has to be a pretty good deal. Just because there are a few professionals earning huge income doesn't mean the rest of us would do better following their lead

deleted

Quote: TomG

What level are you playing? You'll almost always know when the heat is coming. If you do use a card and they stiff you on comps it's no loss. Even if you aren't using a card, they'll still shuffle early. They'll still be just as quick to force you to flat bet. And if that stuff does happen when you're letting them track you just come back next week without using your players card

And until you're betting over a couple black chips per hand it's unlikely to see that stuff happen

I play at higher stakes than you think. Please don't misunderstand me and think that I'm trying to look like a bad-ass; I'm only trying to make my end of the discussion clear. I have a very solid understanding of how the player's card system works, and I feel I have a very good sense of when heat is coming and an ability to avoid it. The problem is not heat during a session — it's heat that follows you. If I get backed off in a casino out west, I don't want my card to be flagged at a sister property out east. Even though the people at casino B may have never seen my face before, casino A has already lit up my player's card before I've even arrived, and the second my card gets swiped and the "confirmed skilled player" note comes up on the screen, I can forget about making any money there, at least with that player's card. In other words, my concern is not being stiffed on comps, it's having heat that transfers through a network, rather than being confined to a single location.

I'm not advocating for or against the use of a player's card, no matter what stakes you play. There are pros and cons to using or not using one, and both options have merit. For low to medium stakes players, collecting comps adds a significant boost to your EV; the flipside is that that extra EV is often offset by the reverse implied odds of prolonged exposure playing at low stakes (it takes a long time to build a bankroll betting nickels). At high stakes, it's tough to play without a card because if you're betting black, the casino is going to want to know you better. At this level, comps are not worth as much as they are to a lower-limit player, but as high rollers pretty much expect comps as part of the deal, it looks strange to bet big without a card. However, the problem with this is that high-stakes players are under more scrutiny and are much more likely to get heat than small-stakes players. If their card gets flagged, they have a lot to lose.

The fact is, sometimes I play rated and sometimes I don't. It's situation-dependent, and it's a conscious decision that I make each time I plan a session. Hobbyists that have no intentions of moving up in stakes or going full time would probably do well to get all the comps they can. However, I do not fit into this category, so my needs and concerns are a bit different.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

I play at higher stakes than you think. Please don't misunderstand me and think that I'm trying to look like a bad-ass; I'm only trying to make my end of the discussion clear. I have a very solid understanding of how the player's card system works, and I feel I have a very good sense of when heat is coming and an ability to avoid it. The problem is not heat during a session — it's heat that follows you. If I get backed off in a casino out west, I don't want my card to be flagged at a sister property out east. Even though the people at casino B may have never seen my face before, casino A has already lit up my player's card before I've even arrived, and the second my card gets swiped and the "confirmed skilled player" note comes up on the screen, I can forget about making any money there, at least with that player's card. In other words, my concern is not being stiffed on comps, it's having heat that transfers through a network, rather than being confined to a single location.

I'm not advocating for or against the use of a player's card, no matter what stakes you play. There are pros and cons to using or not using one, and both options have merit. For low to medium stakes players, collecting comps adds a significant boost to your EV; the flipside is that that extra EV is often offset by the reverse implied odds of prolonged exposure playing at low stakes (it takes a long time to build a bankroll betting nickels). At high stakes, it's tough to play without a card because if you're betting black, the casino is going to want to know you better. At this level, comps are not worth as much as they are to a lower-limit player, but as high rollers pretty much expect comps as part of the deal, it looks strange to bet big without a card. However, the problem with this is that high-stakes players are under more scrutiny and are much more likely to get heat than small-stakes players. If their card gets flagged, they have a lot to lose.

The fact is, sometimes I play rated and sometimes I don't. It's situation-dependent, and it's a conscious decision that I make each time I plan a session. Hobbyists that have no intentions of moving up in stakes or going full time would probably do well to get all the comps they can. However, I do not fit into this category, so my needs and concerns are a bit different.

Great explanation, I really appreciated the insight from an experienced player at higher stakes than myself.

At the places I have played, pit bosses are openly suspicious of green+ chippers who play unrated. Based on that, I'd guess that playing unrated gets you a lot of extra unwanted attention.