Why don't we see odd number shoe games?
February 27th, 2012 at 8:05:14 PM
permalink
You only hear about even number shoe games ex: 4deck, 6D and 8D. Can anyone tell me why no one uses a 5D or 7D shoe?
"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
February 27th, 2012 at 8:19:49 PM
permalink
Just a wild, shot in the dark...
One of the first steps of a hand shuffle is to make deck-sized stacks, then take half of two stacks, and shuffle them, continuing around until the entire shoe is shuffled, then repeat.
With odd numbers of decks, then the dealer will either need to make less than deck-sized stacks, or work with an odd number of stacks, which will create weird procedures.
One of the first steps of a hand shuffle is to make deck-sized stacks, then take half of two stacks, and shuffle them, continuing around until the entire shoe is shuffled, then repeat.
With odd numbers of decks, then the dealer will either need to make less than deck-sized stacks, or work with an odd number of stacks, which will create weird procedures.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 27th, 2012 at 8:25:43 PM
permalink
Not a bad shot...
procedures wouldn't change, you would just grab 2/3 of a deck.....
i wonder if there is a math reason...i wouldn't think so.
One of my dealers and I were talking about this the other day in my Pit. I looked around different sites and forums, and couldn't find anything.
procedures wouldn't change, you would just grab 2/3 of a deck.....
i wonder if there is a math reason...i wouldn't think so.
One of my dealers and I were talking about this the other day in my Pit. I looked around different sites and forums, and couldn't find anything.
"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
February 28th, 2012 at 1:45:42 AM
permalink
Wow, good question. Of course there's 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8 deck shoes but 3, 5, and 7 are almost unheard of. I can't think of any particularly good reason as to why. Although I was able to find a 5 deck shoe game advertised at Robinson Rancheria.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:54:04 AM
permalink
So here's my guess: The decks come in packs of 12. So you can open two 6 deck games with one pack. Or three 8 deck games with two packs, etc. Odd numbered decks it may become an efficiancy thing.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:22:18 AM
permalink
Actually, I think that's a better guess than my shuffling procedures reason.Quote: ewjones080So here's my guess: The decks come in packs of 12....
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 28th, 2012 at 5:25:36 AM
permalink
Quote: ewjones080So here's my guess: The decks come in packs of 12. So you can open two 6 deck games with one pack.
Or four three deck games :)
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
February 28th, 2012 at 5:52:19 AM
permalink
But a good one. Back in the days when dealers did this and people had to WATCH it being done do you think they wanted everything deck-sized and easy to follow with standardized procedures? Ofcourse even numbered decks, what do you think they want some "odd" deck lying around in a box to be used later? Anything lying around unused might get tampered with. If you start with two twelve packs you will have no single decks left over.Quote: DJTeddyBearJust a wild, shot in the dark...
Standardized hand motions well thought out, standardized placement of decks. All means that no one gets access to some odd deck that is lying fallow. So it is 2, 4, 6, 8,,, whatever you want but never some odd ball amount. Surveillance used to be real people laying up on the cat walk with binoculars, not remotely focusing digital color cameras.
February 28th, 2012 at 6:22:38 AM
permalink
Didn't early CSM's come loaded with 5 decks?
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
February 28th, 2012 at 7:06:55 AM
permalink
Quote: DeMangoDidn't early CSM's come loaded with 5 decks?
Maybe Robinson Rancheria is using old equipment, and has turned it into a feature in thier advertising....
Quote: PopCan...Although I was able to find a 5 deck shoe game advertised at Robinson Rancheria.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 28th, 2012 at 7:42:49 AM
permalink
There is 5D Blackjack in some South Africa casinos.
And I thank there is 3D Blackjack in some On-Line casinos too.
And I thank there is 3D Blackjack in some On-Line casinos too.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
February 28th, 2012 at 8:19:43 AM
permalink
Quote: DeMangoDidn't early CSM's come loaded with 5 decks?
Loaded would imply the CSM's had 5-decks in them. That's not the case; they still have to have cards fed to them to work.
However, I believe the old Shufflemaster machines initially were 5-decks, as I seem to remember that. Most have switched to 1-6, where theoretically, you can use 1-6 decks.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 28th, 2012 at 9:55:16 AM
permalink
In WA state most of the Spanish 21 tables have 5 spanish decks. I have heard this maximizes the house edge on the "Match the Dealer" side bet, but I haven't actually seen the math on that.
Agree the original question is very interesting. If I had to hazard a guess I'd go with the reason being the 12-deck packs.
Agree the original question is very interesting. If I had to hazard a guess I'd go with the reason being the 12-deck packs.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 28th, 2012 at 10:07:10 AM
permalink
I don't know about shoes, but the first time I played blackjack in Vegas (2005, I think, at TI), it was a five-deck CSM. (I asked the dealer because I had hard 16 with a 10 showing, and my strategy in that case is, "Hit if it's three decks or more; stand if it's one or two".)
February 28th, 2012 at 10:45:14 AM
permalink
Over the years I have seen and played 1 deck, 3 deck, 5 deck, and 7 deck games all dealt out of shoes at various locations around the US. No doubt they are uncommon but they are out there. I know of 3 deck and 5 deck shoe games that are being dealt at this very moment. Not 100% sure on the 1 and 7 but I suspect they are still out there somewhere.
February 28th, 2012 at 12:40:00 PM
permalink
ONE deck? In a shoe?Quote: NotThisTimeOver the years I have seen and played 1 deck . . . dealt out of shoes ....
You'd think that if a casino were paranoid enough about protection to use a shoe, they wouldn't have a 1 deck game!
After all, aren't TWO deck games generally hand pitched?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 28th, 2012 at 12:42:34 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearONE deck? In a shoe?
You'd think that if a casino were paranoid enough about protection to use a shoe, they wouldn't have a 1 deck game!
After all, aren't TWO deck games generally hand pitched?
Some casino's shuffle 6 decks and deal 1 deck out of a shoe. I have even seen posts on other sites about a player bragging how he is killing a
single deck shoe game. Some people are easliy fooled.
February 28th, 2012 at 12:44:43 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearONE deck? In a shoe?
You'd think that if a casino were paranoid enough about protection to use a shoe, they wouldn't have a 1 deck game!
After all, aren't TWO deck games generally hand pitched?
Depends... Missouri does not allow ANY game (other than poker) to be dealt out of the hand. As a result, ALL games, double-deck, single-deck, even Texas Hold Em table MUST be dealt from a shoe. Harrah's St Louis had Double Down Stud dealt out of a shoe.. it took forever to deal.
Still, some properties don't like pitching. Isle of Capri is notorious for dealing out of a shoe on Double Deck, though the game is still dealt face up. In Missouri, players still handle the cards face down on those games.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 28th, 2012 at 3:24:03 PM
permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBearONE deck? In a shoe?
You'd think that if a casino were paranoid enough about protection to use a shoe, they wouldn't have a 1 deck game!
After all, aren't TWO deck games generally hand pitched?
I believe the El Cortez also offers a single deck shoe game.
Vote for Nobody 2020!
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:43:28 AM
permalink
The amount of decks usually means different odds payouts on the matches for the bonus wager.
Spanish 21
Win Frequency for each
Match The Dealer wager Unsuited Match Suited Match House Advantage
Payout Payout
2 deck 14.3%, 1 in 7.0 hands 4:1 15:1 3.63%
4 deck 15.1%, 1 in 6.6 hands 4:1 10:1 3.20%
5 deck 15.3%, 1 in 6.5 hands 3:1 13:1 3.53%
6 deck 15.4%, 1 in 6.5 hands 4:1 9:1 3.06%
8 deck 15.6%, 1 in 6.4 hands 3:1 12:1 2.99%
5 Decks have the best house advantage (without dropping to double deck which makes it a little easier to count the shoe)
Spanish 21
Win Frequency for each
Match The Dealer wager Unsuited Match Suited Match House Advantage
Payout Payout
2 deck 14.3%, 1 in 7.0 hands 4:1 15:1 3.63%
4 deck 15.1%, 1 in 6.6 hands 4:1 10:1 3.20%
5 deck 15.3%, 1 in 6.5 hands 3:1 13:1 3.53%
6 deck 15.4%, 1 in 6.5 hands 4:1 9:1 3.06%
8 deck 15.6%, 1 in 6.4 hands 3:1 12:1 2.99%
5 Decks have the best house advantage (without dropping to double deck which makes it a little easier to count the shoe)
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:49:01 AM
permalink
That didn't copy from the gaming commission website rules.
2 deck 14.3% (hits 1 in 7.0 hands). Non Suited Match 4:1. Suited Match 15:1. House Edge 3.63%
4 deck 15.1% (1 in 6.6 hands). Non Suited Match pays 4:1. Suited Match 10:1. House Edge 3.20%
5 deck 15.3% (1 in 6.5 hands). Non Suited pays 3:1. Suited Match 13:1. House Edge 3.53%
6 deck 15.4% (1 in 6.5). Non Suited 4:1. Suited 9:1. Edge 3.06%.
8 deck 15.6% (1 in 6.4) Non suited 3:1. Suited 12:1. Edge 2.99%.
I don't know why they don't use the other sizes of shoes on normal blackjack games, but if the game has a bonus wager spot, the decks used correlate to the odds the casino can offer. The game designers have to create the odds and submit them to the gaming commission for approval, so the casinos can only use what was approved.
2 deck 14.3% (hits 1 in 7.0 hands). Non Suited Match 4:1. Suited Match 15:1. House Edge 3.63%
4 deck 15.1% (1 in 6.6 hands). Non Suited Match pays 4:1. Suited Match 10:1. House Edge 3.20%
5 deck 15.3% (1 in 6.5 hands). Non Suited pays 3:1. Suited Match 13:1. House Edge 3.53%
6 deck 15.4% (1 in 6.5). Non Suited 4:1. Suited 9:1. Edge 3.06%.
8 deck 15.6% (1 in 6.4) Non suited 3:1. Suited 12:1. Edge 2.99%.
I don't know why they don't use the other sizes of shoes on normal blackjack games, but if the game has a bonus wager spot, the decks used correlate to the odds the casino can offer. The game designers have to create the odds and submit them to the gaming commission for approval, so the casinos can only use what was approved.
