Holy Rollers
Quote: AcesAndEightsWiz, does this mean that you also judge poorly those whose career is solely AP, independent of the context of the Church Team? I find this surprising as you have not previously mentioned it when the numerous discussions about the morality of AP come up. I understand that it's a totally defensible viewpoint that you don't disapprove of AP itself on moral grounds, but think that someone who does only that with their life has made a poor moral decision...is that it?
You ask a tough question. What comes around goes around. Let me preface what I'm going to say that many of my best friends are advantage players and I do it on a part-time basis myself. As a someone who likes any game, whether gambling or not, I believe in playing it as well as possible, within the rules.
However, to answer your question, I throw the same stone at any advantage player that I threw at Colin and Ben. Show me a full time advantage player and I'll show you somebody who consumes from society only and gives nothing back. Whether or not it is a poor moral decision I leave to each to decide himself. I just ask that APs recognize their contribution, or lack thereof, to the world.
Quote:I don't believe this is correct. I haven't studied the bible for about 10 years, but in all my training and instruction in the Bible (and I got a lot of it, attending Christian school from K-12, as well as church on Sunday and Awana/youth group one night a week), I don't recall this being mentioned.
How about this...
Quote: 2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Quote: WizardShow me a full time advantage player and I'll show you somebody who consumes from society only and gives nothing back. .
How could you possibly know what an AP does
with the money? He could be supporting a bunch
of kids in Africa thru monthly contributions. There
are a myriad of things he could be doing that
you have no inkling of.
You paint with too broad a brush this time. You
need to evaluate on an AP to AP basis.
Quote: EvenBobHow could you possibly know what an AP does
with the money? He could be supporting a bunch
of kids in Africa thru monthly contributions. There
are a myriad of things he could be doing that
you have no inkling of.
You paint with too broad a brush this time. You
need to evaluate on an AP to AP basis.
I don't think wizard was talking about what one might do with his money, and/or time, as I actually donate my time, by volunteering in the laundry of a homeless shelter each week, which I might not be able to otherwise do. I think he was talking more along the lines of AP's don't "make" anything. I have heard this argument before. I can't say I agree with this argument as we no longer live in a society where every person contributes a product or service. There are many occupations that are just basically middlemen. I would say the financial world, in particular has a lot of this going on.
My argument would be that the casino is in the business of gaming, taking wagers from customers. When I show up everyday and place my 'action', it is fueling their business model. A model that they know, in the end will generate a profit for them, because the odds are tilted in their favor. And my 'action' generates jobs, both in the casino, dealers, floor people, surveillance, restaurant workers where I dine (regardless that the meal is comped...lol), as well as in the general marketplace, where I spend my money at the grocery store, drug store, movie theater etc. It all creates jobs.
What is a table game? It's a simple game, with a slight banker edge, offered for free due to this edge. You get everything for nothing, because the game pays for itself. You do not object to getting everything for nothing, but expect to get more yet: you expect the game to pay you. You know that your hosts do not appreciate your business, but from this you only get the satisfaction of a "job" well done.
I'm reminded of a statement from an AP website, "ploppies are the lifeblood of the casino; don't be a ploppy." In what constructive vocation are you afraid of being the lifeblood of the people signing your checks? None - all trade is quid pro quo, in some form or another. A trade built on getting something for nothing is a swindle, nothing more.
Quote: rainmanSo my chosen means of Income dictates whether or not I'm a contributing member of society or just a blood sucking leech upon its neck? What about football players,race car drivers, etc...
Football players race car drivers, etc. are athletes who provide entertainment services to the masses, in a way that no table game gambler or player does.
Quote: rainmanA mans chosen means of income has little to do with whether or not he will be a great contributor or benefit to society or not.
Sure it does. Compare a doctor who saves lives, to a career criminal who sells narcotics to destroy lives.
I'm a dice dealer and game designer who was a computer programmer for a college for 15 years, and a high school teacher for a while. While I view the contributions I made keeping a college running efficiently for thousands of students, or teaching in a classroom as something that positively touched many lives in a fine and constructive way, I make no bones about calling dice in a gambling hall as something that falls far short of socially beneficial work. I don't kid myself. I'm happy enough that the money helps, and I no longer take headaches home from work. My real contributions to people's lives now mostly come outside of and aside from work.
As for being a casino game designer with a good number of installs, now THAT helps the business models of a lot of casinos, moreso than calling dice on one table at one joint.
Doctors have been convicted of terrible crimes against man & mankind its about men not their profession.
Quote: EvenBobHow could you possibly know what an AP does with the money? He could be supporting a bunch of kids in Africa thru monthly contributions.
Even if he gave all of it to kids in Africa he would still be only moving resources from one place to another -- not actually creating any good or service himself. That is what Robin Hood did.
Quote: kewljThere are many occupations that are just basically middlemen. I would say the financial world, in particular has a lot of this going on.
Most people in the financial world do provide a service to society. For example, look at your average private investment company. They direct wealth to successful companies, in general, which help them grow, and are a benefit to the whole economy. I believe that those who worker harder and better deserve to be rewarded for it, and the financial world enables that to happen.
Somebody brought up race car drivers. They provide a form of entertainment. Providing a service to others is nothing to be ashamed of.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe only service I need to provide to is me and my family. This may sound harsh but I don't worry nor care about others.
That's a great attitude to teach your children as well.
Maybe you should also teach them some first aid,
just in case you're in an accident and the highway is full of other families like yours.
;/
I think many AP provides a valuable service to themselves and those around them.
Many AP have written books, operate websites, and educate their fellow players on correct play.
Quote: WongBoMany AP have written books, operate websites, and educate their fellow players on correct play.
As Martha Stewart would say, "That is a good thing."
One exception I would make to my argument about advantage play accomplishing nothing for society is in sports betting. There they often take the side the recreational gamblers don't want, usually on the underdog. This help the sports book balance their action, and moves the line in the favor of the squares.
Quote: WongBo
Many AP have written books, operate websites, and educate their fellow players on correct play.
So as an AP who supports myself from AP play, I contribute nothing to society only consume. (wizard's definition) BUT, if I write a book about these experiences, which I will also make a profit from, I am now providing a service (entertainment) and am now a worthwhile contributing member of society. ??? This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. :( By this model a thief, who writes a book or screenplay about his activities is a positive, contributing member of society. lol
Quote: thecesspitA single act may or may not 'contribute to society', but a person is more than a single act. The act of Advantage Play (or even casino play in general) may not contribute to society. But many things I do, like eating this bowl of cereal don't either. I think you are on shaky ground if you start defining what other people do as being "socially good" or not, and better to go out and do what you feel is a contribution, and encourage others to do the same, in whatever manner they feel is right.
I feel your act of eating the bowl of cereal does contribute to society. As a consumer, you contributed to the creation of jobs at both the cereal manufacturer and the cereal bowl manufacturer. (and presumably the milk and spoon industries...lol) And because John Smith working at the cereal manufacturer has a job, he goes out and buys a TV and so forth, thus making you a contributing member of the chain, REGARDLESS of where your funds to consume come from.
Quote: kewljI feel your act of eating the bowl of cereal does contribute to society. As a consumer, you contributed to the creation of jobs at both the cereal manufacturer and the cereal bowl manufacturer. (and presumably the milk and spoon industries...lol)
Any moocher on welfare could make the same argument.
Quote: WizardAny moocher on welfare could make the same argument.
So you see no distinction between an AP that supports himself by legal means, using his brain and a welfare recipient spending his day on the couch eating cheeze puffs? That's pretty harsh. lol
What matters is not effort, but the fruits of that effort, and in that regard you are exactly equal. Your hours of strenuous mental masturbation count for the nothing they produce.
Quote: rainmanBingo This is gambling. They are trying to win my money as am I theirs. That's the bottom line no matter how you want to paint it.
A fine rule for your basement. If you want that to be the case, play somewhere where it's the case. It is not the case in the casino pit, where they host the games, and they make the rules, and they support the games entirely with the aggregate losses less wins.
(EDIT: In case anyone noticed, yes I did tone down the first line a bit; I felt it was perhaps going too far, and maybe implying something I didn't want to imply.)
Quote: kewljSo you see no distinction between an AP that supports himself by legal means, using his brain and a welfare recipient spending his day on the couch eating cheeze puffs? That's pretty harsh. lol
There is one exception. The welfare moocher's money is taken from innocent people at the point of a gun; It is stolen money that he accepts and lives on. The AP makes his money through gambling and perhaps some level of deception.
Quote: kewljI feel your act of eating the bowl of cereal does contribute to society. As a consumer, you contributed to the creation of jobs at both the cereal manufacturer and the cereal bowl manufacturer. (and presumably the milk and spoon industries...lol) And because John Smith working at the cereal manufacturer has a job, he goes out and buys a TV and so forth, thus making you a contributing member of the chain, REGARDLESS of where your funds to consume come from.
This argument reflects a lack of basic economic understanding. There are no shortage of people who want to consume. Man's nature is that he always wants more stuff. Getting people to consume goods is easy and does not make us wealthier. Getting people to supply more is the tough part. This requires investment, hard work, savings, etc. This is what makes us wealthier.
Quote: kewljI can't say I agree with this argument as we no longer live in a society where every person contributes a product or service.
There are tons of people who have jobs
that contribute nothing.
People who make TV commercials. They
sell their brand of soap. They say most
laundry detergents all work the same,
therefore why do we need so many?
All but the top few are contributing nothing
to society, they're just taking up space.
People who buy something for $10 and sell
it for $15 on Ebay, like I used to do. They
contribute nothing.
The fat woman you see riding in the cart at
Walmart.
Video game inventors.
Jay Leno's joke writer.
Quote: bigfoot66This argument reflects a lack of basic economic understanding. There are no shortage of people who want to consume. Man's nature is that he always wants more stuff. Getting people to consume goods is easy and does not make us wealthier. Getting people to supply more is the tough part. This requires investment, hard work, savings, etc. This is what makes us wealthier.
I agree 100%! The economic value of a person is what he creates less what he consumes.
Somebody asked about AP's who write about gambling. That is creating something. As long as they are teaching truthful and useful information, that is providing a service to society. Same thing as a movie about a thief. Heat is one of my favorite movies, from which I've derived much pleasure watching.
Quote: kewljSo you see no distinction between an AP that supports himself by legal means, using his brain and a welfare recipient spending his day on the couch eating cheeze puffs? That's pretty harsh. lol
I see no economic distinction. However, I have great intellectual respect for the AP. I also would impugn the honesty of the welfare recipient if he lied about his resources or efforts to find a job, as requirements to collect, which he probably did. Remember, I said "welfare moocher."
Quote: Wizard
Somebody asked about AP's who write about gambling. That is creating something. As long as they are teaching truthful and useful information,
WHAT? An AP creates nothing, but an AP who writes
a book about it and creates MORE AP's, is creating
something?
So you're saying a shoplifter creates nothing, but if he
writes a book and creates other shoplifters, now he's
creating something?
Is that the story you're sticking with?
Quote: EvenBobWHAT? An AP creates nothing, but an AP who writes
a book about it and creates MORE AP's, is creating
something?
So you're saying a shoplifter creates nothing, but if he
writes a book and creates other shoplifters, now he's
creating something?
Is that the story you're sticking with?
Bob, there was NOTHING said about "creating more" bad or anything.
Quote: PaigowdanBob, there was NOTHING said about "creating more" bad or anything.
Whats an AP going to write a book about, stamp
collecting? He's going to write about how to be
an AP, like Grosjean did. And this creates more
AP's. So Grojean created nothing when he took
the casinos money, but he did create something
when he taught others to do it?
Quote: EvenBobThere are tons of people who have jobs
that contribute nothing.
People who buy something for $10 and sell
it for $15 on Ebay, like I used to do. They
contribute nothing.
The fat woman you see riding in the cart at
Walmart.
Video game inventors.
Jay Leno's joke writer.
The reseller on eBay provides society with a valuable service. He takes items from where they are of zero value (a garage sale) to a place where they provide society with more than $15 in value (the home of the buyer). In doing this he creates more than $15 in real wealth for society.
I cannot defend the fat woman in the cart at Walmart unless she has a productive job.
The video game inventor provides grown men with a great deal of entertainment, no different than a film maker or anyone in the entertainment industry. He is also probably the world's best and without question most efficent babysitter: He frees up moms and dads to be productive for some period of time they might otherwise be fussing with a bored and cranky child.
Quote: bigfoot66The reseller on eBay provides society with a valuable service. He takes items from where they are of zero value (a garage sale) to a place where they provide society with more than $15 in value (the home of the buyer). In doing this he creates more than $15 in real wealth for society.
I cannot defent the fat woman in the cart at Walmart unless she has a productive job.
The video game inventor provides grown men with a great deal of entertainment, no different than a film maker or anyone in the entertainment industry. He is also probably the world's best and without question most efficent babysitte: He frees up moms and dads to be productive for some period of time they might otherwise be fussing with a bored and cranky child.
By your logic then, an AP keeps cocktail waitresses
active, and dealers and floormen employed. He
keeps security well staffed and making money to
support their families. He causes casino employees
to attend casino protection seminars and the creator
of the seminar profits greatly. He keeps the valet busy
parking his Caddy and the casino host busy getting
him comps. So the AP is creating something afterall.
Quote: EvenBobWHAT? An AP creates nothing, but an AP who writes
a book about it and creates MORE AP's, is creating
something?
So you're saying a shoplifter creates nothing, but if he
writes a book and creates other shoplifters, now he's
creating something?
Is that the story you're sticking with?
I believe the Wizard and I are on the same page here but I speak only for myself.
Bob Dancer is an AP. His pounding the buttons at a Dueces Wild machine for 10 hours a day does not create any resources that benefit others. In that sense he is the same, economically, as a welfare moocher. He consumes without producing anything of value.
Bob Dancer also writes articles and books that people like me read. I derive pleasure/entertainment from the reading as well as a good deal of educational value. He has made me a stronger player. These activities make society wealthier. He has created valuable resources that help other people.
Both activities are (I assume) profit centers for Mr. Dancer. The AP activity profits him without providing any benefit for anyone but himself. The publishing activities profit Mr. Dancer as well as the consumers of his material. Both sides are better off than they would be if he did not provide the service. The first activity is kind of morally nuetral. It is not wrong, like stealing. But being involved in a business activity that profits both sides of the transaction is a wonderful, honorable, highly positive thing.
Now do you understand the distinction ?
Quote: bigfoot66
Bob Dancer is an AP. His pounding the buttons at a Dueces Wild machine for 10 hours a day does not create any resources that benefit others.
Are we communists, then? Since when do others
come before ourselves? When Stephen King writes
a book, he's doing it for the money. If somebody
likes it and he gets paid, he'll write more. But his
incentive for writing it was purely selfish.
When an AP wins, and does something useful with
the money, like feed starving families, how is he any
different from Stephen King?
King wrote the book first and sold it and gave people
pleasure. An AP makes the money first, and uses it
to give people pleasure. Whats the difference.
I have a lot of gambling books on my shelves about advantage plays I don't pursue. However, I enjoyed the book, and happy was happy to pay for it. For the same reason, some people read books about baseball that don't actually play.
Regarding a book on how to be a thief, I would not morally support that. Normally I'm all in favor of unfettered access to truthful information. However, there are obvious exceptions of the information would hurt others. For example, if somebody could publish a guide on how to build a nuclear weapon in your garage this is something that would be better left unknown.
Quote: EvenBobBy your logic then, an AP keeps cocktail waitresses
active, and dealers and floormen employed. He
keeps security well staffed and making money to
support their families. He causes casino employees
to attend casino protection seminars and the creator
of the seminar profits greatly. He keeps the valet busy
parking his Caddy and the casino host busy getting
him comps. So the AP is creating something afterall.
No. You are failing to see the fundamental distinction I made above, which is that CONSUMPTION is different than PRODUCTION. There is nothing wrong with consuming. When we have earned money we should enjoy it as we see fit. However there is great honor in profitably producing a good or service that other people want because you are making the world a better place. Consider a man who builds homes for a living (in a normally functioning free economy). He spends $150,000 to build a home that he sells for $225,000. This means that he took $150,000 worth of resources and transformed it, as if by magic, into a $225,000 resource. He literally created at least $75,000 worth of value to society that did not previously exist. Do you see how this activity is wonderful and honorable? Do you see how it benefits all parties and hurts no one?
the AP takes advantage of mistakes casino operators make. AP activity says "Anytime you mistakenly (or intentionally) offer a VP table that is too liberal I will use my brain to beat you at your own game." The AP takes money from the casino operators pocket as well as food and cocktails and other comps, without creating value for anyone. He is a taker, not a giver like our home builder above. There is nothing immoral in his activity, but then there is not much there for us to really admire or respect either. He is not making anyone else's life better but his own and his family's. Keeping casino personel occupied with busywork is also not a productive, your argument is akin to arguing that having the unemployed dig ditches and fill them back in to earn their unemployment checks would be productive.
Quote: EvenBobWhen Stephen King writes a book, he's doing it for the money.
He wrote four books under the pen name Richard Bachman, which I'm sure caused for a much less sales. I think he did it for the love of writing without the Stephen King hype.
Regarding King in general, I've read about half his books and he has given me much more than I have given him. Win-win situation. Meanwhile AP gives nothing back -- it is a one-way street.
Finally, Bravo to bigfoot's post above! Couldn't have said it better myself.
Quote: EvenBobAre we communists, then? Since when do others
come before ourselves? When Stephen King writes
a book, he's doing it for the money. If somebody
likes it and he gets paid, he'll write more. But his
incentive for writing it was purely selfish.
When an AP wins, and does something useful with
the money, like feed starving families, how is he any
different from Stephen King?
King wrote the book first and sold it and gave people
pleasure. An AP makes the money first, and uses it
to give people pleasure. Whats the difference.
You have rightly identified that both the home builder and the AP in my example are motivated by the same basic human desire: To get more stuff. I am not judging the motivations, only the actual outcome. Mr. King delights and entertains people with the books he writes, and makes the world a better place. It is the fundamental economic miracle: Both buyer and seller in a transaction are looking out only for their own good. Mr. King wants my $14.99 more than his book, I want the book more than the $14.99, we trade, and suddenly we are both better off, happier, and wealthier, even though throughout the whole process every party was motivated only by his own greed!
What the AP does is besides the point. When the AP wins money moves from one wallet to another, but no valuable resources or services are created.
Quote: WizardHe wrote four books under the pen name Richard Bachman, which I'm sure caused for a much less sales. I think he did it for the love of writing without the Stephen King hype.
Don't kid yourself. Writing is a lot of things, but
its never fun. They all hate it, even King.
Quote: WizardMeanwhile AP gives nothing back
So if an AP gives half his winnings to charity,
he's giving nothing back? You don't make sense.
Quote: EvenBobSo if an AP gives half his winnings to charity,
he's giving nothing back? You don't make sense.
He is still creating nothing. His consumption went down by half, which gets him half way up to an economic value of zero, but it is still negative.
Quote: bigfoot66When the AP wins money moves from one wallet to another, but no valuable resources or services are created.
How do you know whats created with the money
when the AP spends it? Do you even know what
money is? By itself, its nothing. Its potential. Its
energy waiting to go into action. What you create
with the money is whats important, thats your
contribution to society. The money by itself is
meaningless.
Quote: WizardHe is still creating nothing.
So what did the gold miner who spent the
afternoon panning in the creek and found
a nugget, what did he create? Nothing. He
could have just as well found the nugget
by chance.
He's sells the nugget and provides for his
family. Does everybody look at him with
scorn and say he creates nothing, so he
deserves nothing?
Quote: EvenBobHow do you know whats created with the money when the AP spends it?
Money just gives the bearer the right to consume. You still don't get the difference between creation and consumption.
Quote: bigfoot66He literally created at least $75,000 worth of value to society that did not previously exist. Do you see how this activity is wonderful and honorable? Do you see how it benefits all parties and hurts no one?
Sure it hurts someone. It hurts the people who can't
afford to live there. The truly honorable thing is to
not make a profit for yourself at all, and sell it for
face value. What he did is not wonderful and honorable,
its called capitalism.
This is why some people want the minimum wage raised
to $20 man hour. The businessman says he can't do that
without raising his prices. Oh no, the Socialist says, you
have to forego your profits and make the same as your
employee's, you will all make $20 an hour. Anything other
than that isn't fair.
Quote: WizardMoney just gives the bearer the right to consume. You still don't get the difference between creation and consumption.
So what did the guy who found the gold
nugget create? What does any gold miner
create? He didn't create the nugget, all
he did was find it.
hunter create when he shoots a deer and
takes it home and eats it? Or when a guy
catches a fish and eats it? The both create
nothing. They both take advantage of
something that has already been created,
for their own selfish benefit.
How are they different from an AP? The
casino is sitting there, the AP uses his skills
and takes advantage of it. Just like a hunter
or fisherman.
Quote: WizardHe is still creating nothing. His consumption went down by half, which gets him half way up to an economic value of zero, but it is still negative.
Ok I finally understand from a purely + or - point of view The act of AP only consumes. However once I leave The tables with my pockets full of cash I may be a huge maker and not a taker out in society. Really though I'm just trying to put rice and beans on the table so as to not perish.
Quote: EvenBobWhen you come down to it, what does a
hunter create when he shoots a deer and
takes it home and eats it? Or when a guy
catches a fish and eats it? The both create
nothing. They both take advantage of
something that has already been created,
for their own selfish benefit.
How are they different from an AP? The
casino is sitting there, the AP uses his skills
and takes advantage of it. Just like a hunter
or fisherman.
The fisherman absolutely creates value! A fish swimming around 400 feet below the surface of the ocean is worthless. A fish on my dinnerplate is worth, what, maybe $10-$30 depending on the situation and how it is prepared? Yes, the fisherman created a great deal of value.
Quote: EvenBobSo what did the guy who found the gold
nugget create? What does any gold miner
create? He didn't create the nugget, all
he did was find it.
The act of finding a gold nugget is very productive. Burried under mud in the stream, the gold is worth exactly Zero. But taken from the ground, polished and processed into a necklace, it is now a beautiful piece of jewelery. He has added value to something.
By your logic no one ever creates value.
Quote: bigfoot66The fisherman absolutely creates value!
If a fisherman 'creates value' then so does an
AP. A fisherman gets a basketful of fish for his
skill and trades them to the restaurant
for his dinner. An AP gets a basketful of cash
for his skill and trades some of it for his dinner.
Absolutely no difference. A skill is a skill is a skill.
Hunters create nothing, fishermen create nothing,
gold miners create nothing, AP's create nothing.
But they all turn their skills into hard cash. There
is zero bit of difference between them.
Quote: WizardQuote: EvenBobSo if an AP gives half his winnings to charity,
he's giving nothing back? You don't make sense.
He is still creating nothing. His consumption went down by half, which gets him half way up to an economic value of zero, but it is still negative.
I hesitate to say it, but I agree with Bob here. This is just a ridiculous line of reasoning, IMO.
Suppose I'm a full-time software developer, providing services to people who need software, but I give nothing to charity. I spend my money on myself and my family only, and if I make too much money I just retire earlier.
Then suppose I am a full-time advantage player, and I donate 20% of my income to worthwhile charities.
You're saying the first person is on better moral ground (given your worldview), simply because he is "creating" value in the world? That's...that's something, right there.
Quote: AcesAndEights
You're saying the first person is on better moral ground (given your worldview).
You just hit the nail on the head. This is all a
morality issue, not a 'what did you create'
issue. The guy in Oregon who finds gold nuggets
in the stream that runs thru his property creates
absolutely nothing. Finding is not creating. But
what he does is not immoral and to some people
being an AP is immoral.
Casinos create nothing, all they do is take. They
say they create entertainment, but whats entertaining
about losing. So if the casino creates nothing, an
AP must really create nothing. He's even lower than
the casino.
But casinos do create jobs. They create tax revenue that
supports schools and cops and firemen in their state.
An AP creates just what a gold miner creates, cash.
He trades his skills for cash, just like a hunter trades
his skills for a deer and a fisherman for fish.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI hesitate to say it, but I agree with Bob here. This is just a ridiculous line of reasoning, IMO.
Suppose I'm a full-time software developer, providing services to people who need software, but I give nothing to charity. I spend my money on myself and my family only, and if I make too much money I just retire earlier.
Then suppose I am a full-time advantage player, and I donate 20% of my income to worthwhile charities.
You're saying the first person is on better moral ground (given your worldview), simply because he is "creating" value in the world? That's...that's something, right there.
It is a tempting argument but it focuses on the wrong part of the process. The issue is not what you do with the money, the issue is how you got it. When I buy a computer from best buy, They get $1000, but they had to create $1000 of value by creating the computer (I know they buy the computers from Apple but go with me here). The point is that they had to create $1000 in value to get my money. People adding to the pile of goods in the world makes the world a better place. AP activity does not add to the pile of goods that exists in the world.
