Static betting with continous shuffle machines?

Is there any advantage or reason to increase or decrease the bet amount when playing at a table with a continuous shuffle machine? If so, what is it and what should the increase/decrease be?

The odds are almost the same with ever hand with a continuous shuffler. They are not exactly the same, because cards from the last hand can't be put in the top "shelf" in the shuffler. So, you can still count cards, but it is just a very shallow penetration.

Quote: Wizard

So, you can still count cards, but it is just a very shallow penetration.

I thought you can't count CSMs because the 'deck' it delivers does not contain 4 of every rank.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: Wizard

So, you can still count cards, but it is just a very shallow penetration.

I thought you can't count CSMs because the 'deck' it delivers does not contain 4 of every rank.

What?

As I understand it, a CSM is loaded with 6 or 8 decks, continually shuffling ALL of them, and delivering 52 cards on demand.

Therefore, the 52 card 'deck' is just 52 random cards out of ALL of the cards that are loaded, with no way to predict how many of each rank are in the 52 cards delivered to the dealer.

To be frank, I don't know if the 'deck' it delivers even contains exactly 52 cards!


Note: This is not to be confused with a single deck shuffler used for poker games. It is shuffling one deck while a second, complete deck is in play.

This is also not to be confused with BJ shufflers that shuffle 6 or 8 decks, and deliver all of them at one time, while an entirely different, complete, 6 or 8 deck shoe is in play.

It doesn't matter how many cards the CSM stages as it prepares to deal. Any unseen card is just as unknown as the next. You can count with a very shallow penetration because any cards that were just used are not in the CSM.

It should be noted you're not counting one deck, you're counting 8 decks

Quote: dwheatley

It should be noted you're not counting one deck, you're counting 8 decks

Hmmm....

If I understand what you're saying, it means you're always playing and counting cards 41 thru 80 of an 8 deck shoe and 'shifting' the count whenever the dealer gets the next deck.

Note: I'm asuming average penetration is about 40 cards before the dealer discards whatever is in his hand and gets another 'deck'.

Oh, sure, if you see a deck that is particularly heavy or light in tems or aces, you can be reasonably sure that the next deck will be somewhat the opposite. But by the third deck, that first deck no longer matters since it's been shuffled in, right? How often will you see a 'deck' that is so heavy or light, that the next 'deck' out of the 5 remaining might be favorable?

Forgive me since I'm not a card counter, but doesn't the power of card counting come towards the end of the shoe? Or at least considerably more than 20% into it?

I actually got a full demonstration of how these machines work once, with the cover off so I could see the internal mechanism. Basically, as cards are fed in, they are randomly placed in various slots (usually 19), one by one. When the machine is full, one of these slots containing 10-20 cards is randomly dropped to the dealing chute. When these cards have been fully dealt, another random slot is dropped. As discards are added, they are also inserted randomly into slots.

As the wizard said, you are simply playing with very shallow penetration. Discarded cards will be inserted in to a slot immediately, but cannot be in the chute until the current queue of cards is used up. On average, this will be maybe 8 or so cards, but could be less or more in an individual hand. Any cards left in the discard tray between hands are obviously added to penetration figures.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Forgive me since I'm not a card counter, but doesn't the power of card counting come towards the end of the shoe? Or at least considerably more than 20% into it?

That's right. That's why we don't bother counting CSMs. I don't think you can squeeze out an advantage, and even the slim drop in house edge you might be able to achieve is not worth the headache of trying to count a shifting deck

If I play the CSMs for blackjack or switch, I like to count the cards anyway to see if I'm getting a fair shuffle. I just keep a running count. At Niagara, I like looking for the Q of Hearts in the perfect pairs game (odds of getting a pair of Queen of Hearts: 3,367:1 in a five deck CSM).

The CSM is quite uncountable with a very low penetration. I estimate that with a 1/2 deck penetration on a five deck shoe, you would have to experience counts of +/- 9 to affect your game play.

However, there are dealers who don't put the cards in the shoe right away -- they don't remember that they're dealing a CSM rather than a shoe. These dealers are quite possible to count on. When about 1/2 the cards are gone a CSM, it will stop dealing because the hopper is empty.

At the Wynn in Macau they let about 52 cards pile up before they put them back in the CSM. That isn't much penetration, but better than zero. There has also been discussion that cards put into the shuffler can't be put into the top shelf or "current queue." According to discountgambling.net/playcraps/ the shuffler used at Viejas has 18 shelves. However, at the end of the day, card counting on a CSM is not worth the bother, unless you're doing so to test for a fair shoe, or practice keeping up with the count. If you have the inclination to count cards, I recommend doing it on a hand-shuffled or automatic shuffler (the kind where the dealer alternates between two shoes, dealing one, while a machine shuffles the other) game.