FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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January 18th, 2012 at 9:40:20 AM permalink
Quote: UltimateHoldem

I've played over 200k Blackjack hands in my short time and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what I would do.

Okay. Right there and then, that is the answer! Even if you normally play 100.00 hands and that guy plays 5,000.00 hands, if you don't know what to do then the fault is that of the dealer.

The dealer's actions bespeak a certainty of the player's intentions. And probably the dealer is correct and probably the player was trying to work a certain advantage after the fact, but its the dealer's fault and the casino takes the loss. Its not just that they want to keep happy some jerk who plays 5,000 a hand, even if he is a shot taker. Its that the cameras are there for a reason and if the cameras do not show the proper hand signal then what on earth are the cameras and the hand signals for.

At a 25.00 table, the dealer would have waited, despite having a sure and certain knowledge of what the player was going to want done. So in some Salon Privee the dealer should wait too.

A shot taker at five grand a shot? Yeah. How do you think he got the five grand in the first place? By going thru life without taking shots?
UltimateHoldem
UltimateHoldem
Joined: Mar 8, 2010
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January 18th, 2012 at 9:51:16 AM permalink
Some interesting discussion, but I think everyone is thinking a bit too deep here. Everyone is acting like the guy got up in the morning and went to the Casino with the intention of trying to rip the place off, it wasn't like that. From what I was seeing he took advantage of a dealer mistake, and then once it worked he dipped his hand in the cookie jar the next chance he got too. Big deal.
Switch
Switch
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January 18th, 2012 at 10:16:08 AM permalink
To me it is clearly a dealer procedure error and the player has taken advantage of that, albeit unethically.

The dealer should confirm a 'split' or 'double' as soon as the player places an additional wager down - even more so after the first time it happened!

I saw a game in a UK casino where the last player had 'hard 7' and the dealer showed a '6'. The dealer automatically dealt to the player (Admittedly she should have waited for a verbal action (no hand action required in UK)) and dealt the player a '10'. The player said that he didn't want the card and that he was thinking of staying on '7' to try and bust the dealer (???lol - 'shot taker' to it's fullest). So, in the end, the dealer had to have the '10' which put her on '16' - she then drew an 'Ace' to make '17'. Had the player played correctly (and truthfully) he would have had '17' as well and tied with the dealer. As it was, he lost a wager he should'n't have and I thought "Serves you right".
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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January 18th, 2012 at 10:17:35 AM permalink
You're right. He probably didn't wake up, intending to cheat the casino.

However, when he saw an opportunity to do so, he took it.

And unlike the guy who passively takes advantage of a major mistake (an overpayment), he actively took advantage of a minor mistake (a dealer who knows basic strategy).
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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January 18th, 2012 at 10:17:43 AM permalink
Interesting story - in the old days my friendly casino used to give the player the first benefit of the doubt (admittedly for less stakes). Personally if splitting I always add and additional bet and move the two bets to the line on either side of the box. The only problem is that you can now split 5s and I was beginning to get fed up with being asked "double or split", so I now always put the second bet on and to the side of the first bet.
Yes there are occasions when the dealer makes a mistake and you know the next card. Sometime I take advantage but usually do what I would have done (e.g. will always hit less than 12 (or double)).
Recently playing three-card poker the dealer would sometimes fail to take my folded bet (even though I pushed the bet with the cards towards him) - sometimes they then look at me quizzically during the payout phase.

Sometime ago I was playing 5-card and noticed that the player next door had a flush and before raising added some money to his original bet. I said nothing but when he did it again a few hands later with a pair of Aces, I put out a marker (so they could see it on the tape), got up, left and mentioned it to the manager. Perhaps I was wrong but I don't like players "cheating".
Switch
Switch
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January 18th, 2012 at 10:24:26 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

...The only problem is that you can now split 5s and I was beginning to get fed up with being asked "double or split"...



That's a good point - everyone (apart from John Patrick apparently) knows that you do not split 5's and that you should double. The fact that the dealer has to ask every time is partly down to the choice but mainly down to people who would take unfair advantage depending on the next card dealt.

It's a little like 99.9999% of us spending extra time going through an airport because of the 0.00001% who would take advantage of a more relaxed procedure.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 18th, 2012 at 11:25:08 AM permalink
Splitting versus doubling on 4's and 5's, a hand signal is required. NEVER assume as dealer, I am surprised.
I'd say, "Show a hand signal, what do you want to do?" once I see a second bet that can be for either a split or double down. Quite often people put a bet out, and just let the dealer assume it one or the other to see the next card for free (a big no-no for a dealer is to assume.) The they say on an ace, "No it was a double down," or on a 6 or 7, "no, it was a split."

Quote: DJTeddyBear

You're right. He probably didn't wake up, intending to cheat the casino.

However, when he saw an opportunity to do so, he took it.

And unlike the guy who passively takes advantage of a major mistake (an overpayment), he actively took advantage of a minor mistake (a dealer who knows basic strategy).


"passively" cheating - or passively taking advantage of an overpayment? Got to love this. Either you don't know, or DO know and don't care, of the status of the money that you put in your pocket.
If you purposely intend to take no action - that is, to let it "fly" - when knowing something, that "no action" reponse IS the action taken, and it ain't really "passive." (A presidential "pocket veto" is such a type of active "passive" action.)

You either know, or don't know, that a payout or action is wrong. You either accept, or refuse to accept and then remark, that a payout is wrong.
If you honestly didn't know what was going on, THEN you passively took advantage of a mistake, because you didn't know.
If you claim, "I didn't know the payout or action was wrong" when it is corrected, - and you're lying about it, that's not passive. You had to have made a conscious decision to say to yourself "I'll TAKE the money!" :)

Quote: CharliePatrick

...The only problem is that you can now split 5s and I was beginning to get fed up with being asked "double or split"...


Do you get fed up being ask to wave off on a 20? Signal Hit on a 9? If there are two or more valid options, even if one is obvious better than another, let us not demand or assume that the dealer is supposed to assume. You stand on your 19, and the next player draws a 2. "Oh, I meant to hit! Call the floor" can be said, and believe me, some people will try. The only hand that requires no further hand signals is hitting and getting to a 21.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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January 18th, 2012 at 11:59:56 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

...Do you get fed up being ask to wave off on a 20? Signal Hit on a 9?...

NO - I usually don't wait and try always to use hand signals - including "stand" on a Blackjack! I think it's easier if you get into a habit of making your intentions clear even if on some occasions when it's obvious what you're going to do. Personally I hate it when (i) having taken a third card, a dealer automatically gives you another if your total is less than 12 before you ask (ii) on hard 17 doesn't at least acknowledge your total before moving to the next player (I'm told it's sometimes correct to hit against an 8).
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 18th, 2012 at 1:35:42 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

NO - I usually don't wait and try always to use hand signals - including "stand" on a Blackjack! I think it's easier if you get into a habit of making your intentions clear even if on some occasions when it's obvious what you're going to do. Personally I hate it when (i) having taken a third card, a dealer automatically gives you another if your total is less than 12 before you ask (ii) on hard 17 doesn't at least acknowledge your total before moving to the next player (I'm told it's sometimes correct to hit against an 8).


I agree: it's the player's option to hit on 17 as it is on 9. When a player says, "what do you think I want to do?" I say "I don't care what you think, I need a signal to proceed, buddy." It's like running a red light at 3AM when no one else is out on the road, you do it by the book to cover your ass. It's generally safe to move forward when a player has a hard 19 or better, and there are some dealers who just crank out hands by running forward if any hand is pat by basic stratgegy dictates.

We used to have a second table games pit where a few dealers dealt in that pit without a floorman being present. I once had a shot taker there, basically trying to run the game with other people on the table. After it passed the point where the other players left because they didn't want to play with that shot taker on the table (he was doing such things as taking three minutes to decide to hit a 14 against a dealer's 8, saying "I can take as MUCH TIME AS I WANT - Na, na-na-na, NA!" and the like...) I finally had him alone heads up.

I fanned the cards on the table and waved off "no action" on the $5 in the betting circle, pushed the bet back and we had a chit-chat.
I said, "no action if you're going to be a jerk. You can't do what you want and run the game on me."
He said, "oh, really now?"
- "yup. If you want to play Blackjack, I'm your boy, but if you're going to pull on my dick, I ain't playing." Said it as plain as day, it was the fact of the matter.
He had this look of surprised on his face, like he never heard this before. Believe me, if a floorman was in the pit, I'd let him handle it, but I didn't, and this was just ridiculous; he wasn't gambling, it was playing mind games, a player saying, "Now watch ME run the game on YOU, na-HAAA!" A total non-starter, his intentions were clear.
So he said, "I don't have to take this." (- while I was openly saying exactly the same thing.) "I can go elsewhere."
I said, "Would it BE that easy? Take Lake Mead to Boulder highway, hang a left, and Joker's Wild is right there. See if they put up with your shit."
He looked at me with his mouth open, took is six nickels ($30), and just left. He didn't go to the other pit and say, "well, I am outraged! Yada Yada Yada. Na, na-na-na, na.." He just up and left. And yes, I was gambling.

The floorman saw the guy leave from the other pit, and said to bring the lid on the table up, take a break and go to craps.
He then said when closing the table, "I saw you two talking. What were you talking about?"
"He asked for directions to McCarran airport, so I told him to hit the highway: take 215 East, and follow the signs. Better than taking 515/95 North and going across Tropicana Avenue to Paradise Road."
"Good job, 'Action Dan.' Excellent Customer Service!"
He knew exactly what was going on. I never did that again, never had to. 99% of the time, a floorman is within reach, just pass it over to them.
Since that time, Orders from Above (Corporate offices) said to basically tolerate as much as you can in terms of this. A sad day. Taking action from shot-takers who simply drive out the other customers is a bad business decision, I feel. The Western closed for a reason, it was a shit house that was allowed to become that way. But for that matter, it was "unclean-able up." People descend to the lowest level possible if they or others plus resources allow them to.

For that matter, if a dealer is allowed to run over game plays by assuming that 4's are split with no sign, applying basic strategy to players' intention on game play, players will see that and then deliberately respond "I wanted to double down" when an Ace is drawn.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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January 18th, 2012 at 3:41:15 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: DJTeddyBear

And unlike the guy who passively takes advantage of a major mistake (an overpayment), he actively took advantage of a minor mistake (a dealer who knows basic strategy).

"passively" cheating - or passively taking advantage of an overpayment? Got to love this. Either you don't know, or DO know and don't care, of the status of the money that you put in your pocket.
If you purposely intend to take no action - that is, to let it "fly" - when knowing something, that "no action" reponse IS the action taken, and it ain't really "passive." (A presidential "pocket veto" is such a type of active "passive" action.)

Dan -

I didn't intend to imply that EITHER form of cheating was "acceptable". It's just that the passive cheat is more of a misdemeanor, while the active cheat is more of a felony.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

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