Saw a backoff at Mirage.
I was playing blackjack at the Mirage. I play almost exclusively on one table where the rules are as follows: Double Deck, S17, DAS, no surrender, and resplit aces. This is a kind of infamous table. Another forum member posted about it here: DD, S17 and metaphysical viagra. Unfortunately, I didn't run into these ladies, but I did have a couple good winning sessions at the game. The game is almost an unspoken challenge to counters: the penetration makes it very hard to beat, but the rules are just about as good as it gets on the strip, and minimums are $25 most of the time.
One morning I wandered down at about 10:30 A.M., and bought in for $400. Two younger guys were already there playing. Now, my spread is just about pathetic: 1-4 units, which won't make me rich, but it's good enough for me, and by no means do I have advanced blackjack skills. One thing I like about this particular game is that the players are generally good. It is a self-selecting blackjack table.
But after a few minutes observing these guys' play, it was all I could do to keep from laughing. First of all, they completely fit the counter stereotype. One guy was an Asian with longish black hair, who did not say and word and always was intensely focused on his game. The other guy was maybe half-Asian/American, but looked similar and had on a t-shirt that said "got gambling?" on it. His betting was almost exactly correlated to the count. Got Gambling? was spreading $25-$250/$300, and he got a blackjack when he had a big bet out. At one point, insurance was offered, and I thought about jokingly saying, "What's the count, boys?" It was just too funny to watch.
Finally, there was a dealer change, and these guys just continued what they were doing, offering no cover at all. A guy in a suit, who I did not recognize, walked out from behind the pit and asked to speak with the guys for a moment. The dealer had no clue what was going on. I said, "I think they are going to be politely asked to leave." I was almost losing it. The suit took the guys back behind the table for five seconds, then brought them back and said, "Please color them up." They colored up and left. The dealer still didn't know what had happened. He thought it was a language issue.
Meanwhile, I continued playing, chatting with the dealer, and getting a few more high counts. I won a few insurance bets, colored up up $175, and left, having had my entertainment for the day.
Probably not. They had already reviewed the tapes, I'm sure. The casinos are just too careful for it to be non-tipped dealer takes break and player instantly gets 86'd. Surveillance may have phoned, floor or pit may have phoned up and asked for history review. Players club history was checked. Security was probably on standby forty feet away or something.Quote: EvenBobDid the dealer who went on break rat them out?
their pics will be sent around.
Chinese New Year is approaching but not yet formally underway.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMost likely the eye in the sky. Funny I play for over 2 weeks and am never bothered but 2 "asians" play once and get the boot. I did notice alot of asian players at this game, but no counters. This is why I was taught not to be greedy and just blend in.
This brings up an interesting point...when I was reading Burning The Tables... (Ian Andersen) he had a list of stereotypical traits associated with counters. One of them was race and his perspective is that a white person would be suspected of counting before any other race. This doesn't really jive with my experience, as it seems like there are a lot of counters out there who are Asian.
Quote: teddysSo I'm back from my Vegas trip and tying up some loose ends and stories. Here's one:
I was playing blackjack at the Mirage. I play almost exclusively on one table they have where the rules are as follows: Double Deck, S17, DAS, no surrender, and resplit aces. This is a kind of infamous table. Another forum member posted about it here: DD, S17 and metaphysical viagra. Unfortunately, I didn't run into these ladies, but I did have a couple good winning sessions at the game. The game is almost an unspoken challenge to counters: the penetration makes it very hard to beat, but the rules are just about as good as it gets on the strip, and minimums are $25 most of the time.
Meanwhile, I continued playing, chatting with the dealer, and getting a few more high counts. I won a few insurance bets, colored up up $175, and left, having had my entertainment for the day.
I know the table, and I'll say that when the count got high for me at that table, the DEALER pulled the BJ, worse, with the Ace in the hole. When the count was bad, dealer was always showing small cards. I'd have 17, dealer would pull above. It's my double-deck luck lately. I didn't see the ladies or any counters. But I could see the pit wanting to go after counters pretty quickly on that table.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThis brings up an interesting point...when I was reading Burning The Tables..
That book is almost 10 years old, things have changed.
I believe all a casino looks at now in BJ is spread, are
you spreading when the count changes. All the stuff
about race, and disguises, and pretending to drink
booze, and chatting up the pit, all the cover stuff has
gone to the wayside. If you're spreading 10x, you're
gone.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThats why you have to disguise the spread also.
The only way to do that is to not make the
bet when you're supposed to. You'll never
make any real money because it spreads
the variance even thinner.
Quote: EvenBobThe only way to do that is to not make the bet when you're supposed to. You'll never make any real money because it spreads the variance even thinner.
That is one way. Another would be to do the 10x occasionally when the count is not so hot for you and make them think you are simply a whimsical bettor. Another might be to have a confederate step in for you a few times and to have you make a few departures and returns during the night making them think you are so whimsical you change tables and well as bet amounts.
I'd sooner suspect an Asian too. After all, they're better at math than we are.Quote: AcesAndEightsThis brings up an interesting point...when I was reading Burning The Tables... (Ian Andersen) he had a list of stereotypical traits associated with counters. One of them was race and his perspective is that a white person would be suspected of counting before any other race. This doesn't really jive with my experience, as it seems like there are a lot of counters out there who are Asian.
Me? If I have 4 small cards, I sometimes can't add them, and delay the game trying to crunch those numbers. So counting? Forget it!
Not necessarily.Quote: PaigowdanNon-counting Basic Strategy and social players pretty much flat bet.
I'm fairly certain I was momentarily suspected of counting once. It was mid-morning, Mohegan Sun. There was an empty table and I asked the pit boss if the minimum could be dropped down. I forget if it was $15 to $10, or $25 to $15, but he did it.
About 20 minutes later he comes by and makes a comment about my $65 bet. I told him, "I was just on a lucky streak, bumping my bets. And besides, I don't like to play alone. Had the minimum not been lowered, the 4 people next to me wouldn't be here."
He then glanced at the dealer who said, "Yeah, he's doing a standard press progression."
He nodded and walked away.
For the record, I think a LOT of non-counting people follow some sort of pressing progression when they are winning. Not necessarily a majority, but enough that your statement is invalid.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMaybe where you deal at but not where I play nor all over the strip while I was there. I saw MANY ploppies with bigger spreads than mine and they WERE'NT counting.
I found that interesting. I have observed variable spreads quite often from folks I know arent counting. I often vary my bet based on the last hand, though at most its 1-3. Only time i have had the pit boss interested was when we were the only players in the joint.
Quote: teddysOne of the simplest covers is to not start over with your minimum bet on a fresh shuffle. Come big off the top, and don't just perfectly correlate your bets to the count, which is what these guys were doing. I don't think this is a secret to anyone.
It also works to occasionally chase a loss. You can even play it to your benefit and spread more if the count is improving.
of counting to such a degree that its almost not worth
it. It used to be, most of the pit couldn't count, or
couldn't do it well. Now they can and they do it as
well as you do. You can have a sex change operation
and all they'll see is your action.
Quote: EvenBobAll these covers are fine, but they dilute the purpose
of counting to such a degree that its almost not worth
it.
Depends on your unit size. If you're betting big enough and have the bankroll to back it, you can handle more camo because the size of your expected win goes up linearly with your unit size, offsetting the decrease in your win percentage. This is the idea behind Andersen's "Ultimate Gambit" strategy. Yes, I know the book is 12 years old, but I just finished reading it a few months ago, so forgive the references. The theory holds true even if it that exact strategy wouldn't work in practice today (I'm sure it wouldn't).
Quote:It used to be, most of the pit couldn't count, or
couldn't do it well. Now they can and they do it as
well as you do. You can have a sex change operation
and all they'll see is your action.
The point of the disguises isn't to get them to ignore your action - it's to delay the recognition process and hence buy you some time. I've never used a disguise since I've never been backed off anywhere yet, but I understand the idea. It's not like these guys think the disguise is going to magically let them get away with a huge spread and no camouflage, they just don't want to get backed off immediately because their picture is hanging up in the pit. They still have to use all the same cautionary tactics.
Look, I'm not trying to say counting cards and getting away with it is easy. The theory is easy, but as you (and Face and Dan) have mentioned, it's extremely difficult to execute in practice. I just look at it as a challenge...
Quote: EvenBobYou can have a sex change operation and all they'll see is your action.
Quote: AcesAndEightsDepends on your unit size.
Wait... What???
Quote: EvenBobAll these covers are fine, but they dilute the purpose
of counting to such a degree that its almost not worth
it. It used to be, most of the pit couldn't count, or
couldn't do it well. Now they can and they do it as
well as you do. You can have a sex change operation
and all they'll see is your action.
Have you made Nareed aware of this?
Quote: SOOPOOHave you made Nareed aware of this?
I don't count cards. :P
I don't even play blackjack
Quote: EvenBobIt used to be, most of the pit couldn't count, or couldn't do it well. Now they can and they do it as well as you do.
I'm pretty sure very few people in the pit know how to count cards. They may know the basics and understand certain theories, but they aren't counting shoes with you. They DO know how to spot betting patterns, and when they see someone they suspect, they call surveillance, who does the counting. Then they get the call back with the go ahead. But I would guess the majority of pit supervisors couldn't count cards if their job depended on it.
Quote: TiltpoulI'm pretty sure very few people in the pit know how to count cards.
How many does it take in the pit and in surveillance?
Not many. 20 years ago none of them did.
That's pretty much the same as being backed offed, and perhaps even more insulting to the counter's pride. As if the counter would EVER be seen flat betting at the $10 table with the rest of the ploppies :)Quote: darrenfromindyThanks for sharing! What I find interesting is that in the few times I've seen someone "backed off" at Mirage or MGM, they weren't asked to leave the table. They were simply told to pick a table with a minimum they were comfortable with and stick to that level (flat-bets). The floor was very nice about it. I wonder if they had been warned previously?
Quote: teddysThat's pretty much the same as being backed offed
Apparently, he can still not bet when the count is minus.
I recall the scene in The Cooler wherein the Casino Manager is auditioning a croupier on both roulette and blackjack. After a few hands of blackjack the CM asks "whats the count" and receives a response of Minus Nine, the CM suggests that it is instead Minus 8 but the job candidate insists on Minus Nine saying always stick with your first figure, chances are you are right. The CM backs down from any attempt to verify the count leading the narrator to comment that the CM can't count. It was all entertaining but it never really rang true. Why on earth would a dealer have to track the count. A floorman or a surveillance guy might want it determined to verify a pattern of bet spread changes but a dealer is just expected to Dummy Up and Deal and call out exceptional circumstances that his floor man will deal with, not he.
While I agree with your assessment, think about it again. This casino is so bent on taking the gamblers for a ride, that they will actually put so much faith in a "Cooler" that they hire the guy. A casino with that sort of attitude probably would look for BJ dealers that can count.
And remember the other thing: That particular casino wasn't in Vegas, it was in Hollywood - if you know what I mean.
Quote: FleaStiffYeah, but the purpose is to knock him back a bit... they don't much care if he leaves or stays, sulks or not... they just want to knock him out of the raised bets on good counts routine. They've made a note of him ... next time he might get a "anything but blackjack". After that, he will probably get a firmer invitation to leave as soon as he shows up. Casinos are wary of counters but they don't want scenes or insults, they just want to put a damper on the activities of the greedy.
I recall the scene in The Cooler [Ooops... on edit, let me say it was The Croupier] wherein the Casino Manager is auditioning a croupier on both roulette and blackjack. After a few hands of blackjack the CM asks "whats the count" and receives a response of Minus Nine, the CM suggests that it is instead Minus 8 but the job candidate insists on Minus Nine saying always stick with your first figure, chances are you are right. The CM backs down from any attempt to verify the count leading the narrator to comment that the CM can't count. It was all entertaining but it never really rang true. Why on earth would a dealer have to track the count. A floorman or a surveillance guy might want it determined to verify a pattern of bet spread changes but a dealer is just expected to Dummy Up and Deal and call out exceptional circumstances that his floor man will deal with, not he.
