Paying 25¢ to play at the $1 BlackJack table
January 5th, 2012 at 1:26:24 PM
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For those that don't know, some casinos in A.C. (and presumably elsewhere), charge 25¢ to play at the $1 BJ table. That's 25¢ per hand, win, lose or push.
Depending on how much you're betting, it might be better to sit at a 6:5 table - or even one that pays even money for BJ.
But here's a different slant from a real session:
During our recent Christmas trip, my wife sat at that table. I learned this as we were driving home.
I asked her if she knew how terrible that game is. She totally understood that it makes the house edge huge, but she didn't care.
She bought in for $20 and lost the first ten or so hands. Had she been at a regular $10 table, she would have been down $100, and done with blackjack. Instead, she continued to play and started to win a few hands.
When she was done, a few hours had passed, she had a few drinks and was up about $2. And she said it was a lot of fun because the other players were being very social.
And there was none of the "you took the dealer's bust card" crap. If that happened, the response was more like "Oh well, you gave it a shot. I only lost a buck."
As terrible as that game is, it's hard to argue with those kinds of results.
Depending on how much you're betting, it might be better to sit at a 6:5 table - or even one that pays even money for BJ.
But here's a different slant from a real session:
During our recent Christmas trip, my wife sat at that table. I learned this as we were driving home.
I asked her if she knew how terrible that game is. She totally understood that it makes the house edge huge, but she didn't care.
She bought in for $20 and lost the first ten or so hands. Had she been at a regular $10 table, she would have been down $100, and done with blackjack. Instead, she continued to play and started to win a few hands.
When she was done, a few hours had passed, she had a few drinks and was up about $2. And she said it was a lot of fun because the other players were being very social.
And there was none of the "you took the dealer's bust card" crap. If that happened, the response was more like "Oh well, you gave it a shot. I only lost a buck."
As terrible as that game is, it's hard to argue with those kinds of results.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 5th, 2012 at 1:34:42 PM
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If you really have the discipline to stay at the minimum bet, it's not such a crazy thing to kill time with.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
January 5th, 2012 at 2:05:37 PM
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Interesting take DJ. One question: was she down $2.00 net or down $2.00 from gambling but ~$30.00 from table fees?
January 5th, 2012 at 2:12:26 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearWhen she was done, a few hours had passed, she had a few drinks and was up about $2. And she said it was a lot of fun because the other players were being very social.
That is totally my wife's attitude. If she can play for
a couple hours, drink a few Tequilla Sunrises for free,
and break even, she's delighted.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 5th, 2012 at 2:43:00 PM
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She wasn't down, she was UP. Ok, it was only $2, but she was up. And that was net. She bought in for $20, left with $22.Quote: sunrise089Interesting take DJ. One question: was she down $2.00 net or down $2.00 from gambling but ~$30.00 from table fees?
Frankly, had she busted out after 2 hours, she still would have said it was a good 2 hours.
And, she's pretty good about tipping. Not too much, but she takes care of the dealer.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 5th, 2012 at 3:46:11 PM
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So maybe its only the wealthier types that go around squabbling about other player's decisions. Those who can only afford one dollar tables are too poor to be rude or something. I don't know.
Certainly you get the same attitude from males in the Party Pits....extra charges, lower payouts,... so what... great tits!!
Its a question of priorities in life. And a free Tequila Sunrise is indeed a high priority.
Certainly you get the same attitude from males in the Party Pits....extra charges, lower payouts,... so what... great tits!!
Its a question of priorities in life. And a free Tequila Sunrise is indeed a high priority.
January 16th, 2012 at 10:02:05 AM
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You cant beat this game if you are paying a fourth of the wager in a non refundable tax. They pay tax on wagers in oklahoma and what i have seen it is a tenth of what the wager rounding up in the nearest increments of fifty cents. This adds a ten percent losing rate to the payer it makes it impossible to buck ten percent player disadvantage I would avoid these games completly. The highest advantage a player can get through card counting in an unusual circumstance is seven percent that still doesnt beat the ten percent you are out yet alone twenty five percent
January 16th, 2012 at 10:28:00 AM
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I agree that, mathematically, this game is a stinker.
However, as my wife's story shows, it can be a great game to play.
However, as my wife's story shows, it can be a great game to play.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 16th, 2012 at 10:42:26 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearI agree that, mathematically, this game is a stinker.
However, as my wife's story shows, it can be a great game to play.
$5 6:5 BJ is so much better it's not even funny. I'm pretty sure you're expected loss of playing 2 hours at $1 a hand with a $.25 ante is more than playing 2 hours at $5 a hand with 6:5.
If my wife even played 1 hand of the $1 BJ I wouldn't be happy with her. I'm all for camraderie and enjoyment, but that is just too much for me.
January 16th, 2012 at 10:54:22 AM
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There are other issues that just the severity of the "tax". Its the degree to which the player feels driven to it and the degree to which he is aware of its nature and impact. For some people the camaraderie and enjoyment is paramount no matter how stiff that ante bet is. For others, such as at a party pit table, its not the twenty-five cents that they focus on, its the Thirty-Eights they are focusing on. Its sort of like a cover charge at a nightclub ... I hate them but some people pay them willingly.Quote: FinsRuleIf my wife even played 1 hand of the $1 BJ I wouldn't be happy with her. I'm all for camaraderie and enjoyment, but that is just too much for me.
Pay a twenty-five percent "tax" to be one dollar? No. I sure hope I never have to do it. However, I won't say its wrong to do it. I would expect the one dollar blackjack to get great drink comps though!
January 16th, 2012 at 11:55:11 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 16th, 2012 at 1:32:13 PM
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The last time I played at the Hollywood in Tunica they had advertised $1 (No disclaimer or anything), so I figured I'd make my first stop there and play some cheap hands. Of course when I got there I realized it was a $.25 commission, but you didn't have to pay if you bet $5 or more. Needless to say I used my free play, got a comp drink and walked next door to The Resorts to play $2 8 deck and $5 DD with no commission to be seen. They just lost my play.
Hotty Toddy!!!
January 16th, 2012 at 3:01:19 PM
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Quote: jlnoble2400You cant beat this game if you are paying a fourth of the wager in a non refundable tax. They pay tax on wagers in oklahoma and what i have seen it is a tenth of what the wager rounding up in the nearest increments of fifty cents. This adds a ten percent losing rate to the payer it makes it impossible to buck ten percent player disadvantage I would avoid these games completly. The highest advantage a player can get through card counting in an unusual circumstance is seven percent that still doesnt beat the ten percent you are out yet alone twenty five percent
At least in Oklahoma, you get some incredibly player friendly rules that, without the vig, would make the game a player-advantage game (i.e. BJ in a certain suit get 2:1, instead of 3:2 like all others; 6-7-8 and 7-7-7 gets 3:2, suited 2:1; BJ promotions as well). The vig washes away all the player edge EXCEPT at the few where they either pay the vig or have promotional times. Granted, the promotions aren't usually that good, but the rules are about as player friendly as they get (S17, RSA, no Surrender, DAS, DA2) (8-deck and double deck).
A/C and the places that have it don't have those rules at all, so it's MUCH worse.
Quote: rebelaccountantThe last time I played at the Hollywood in Tunica they had advertised $1 (No disclaimer or anything), so I figured I'd make my first stop there and play some cheap hands. Of course when I got there I realized it was a $.25 commission, but you didn't have to pay if you bet $5 or more. Needless to say I used my free play, got a comp drink and walked next door to The Resorts to play $2 8 deck and $5 DD with no commission to be seen. They just lost my play.
To be fair, they DO have a disclaimer, even on the signs, but they are written in such a small print you can't see them, even if you stop. The print ads are a bit more clear about this. Why Hollywood is even going after that customer is a shock to me. Tunica is known for low-rolling deals, and frankly, Resorts has MUCH more at stake than they do (as in, their business is crumbling before their eyes). If you want to talk about deceptive, Resorts advertises $1 craps, but only offers 2x odds. So on points of 6-8 you're going to be better of not taking the odds! I figured they'd at least offer 10x odds, but when I saw the 2x I refused to put a dollar out on any of their tables.
Hollywood used to have the BEST drink... a version of an orange julius. It was basically OJ and whipped cream, but after my first trip to Tunica, I decided it was my favorite place to go because of that drink!!!!!
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
January 16th, 2012 at 3:12:48 PM
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Thanks for the clarification on the Hollywood. I stand corrected. I used to be a Hollywood regular, but I missed a few regular trips because of flood, and the mailouts have never caught up sense.
I totally agree with the craps table being horrible at Resorts, but I really enjoy the guys in the pit at the blackjack tables, overly nice and anytime I've seen problems at the table they go out of the way to keep the players happy. And you can't beat the 1 comp buffet!
I totally agree with the craps table being horrible at Resorts, but I really enjoy the guys in the pit at the blackjack tables, overly nice and anytime I've seen problems at the table they go out of the way to keep the players happy. And you can't beat the 1 comp buffet!
Hotty Toddy!!!
January 17th, 2012 at 3:12:38 AM
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Quote: TiltpoulIf you want to talk about deceptive, Resorts advertises $1 craps, but only offers 2x odds. So on points of 6-8 you're going to be better of not taking the odds! I figured they'd at least offer 10x odds, but when I saw the 2x I refused to put a dollar out on any of their tables.
What's unfair or deceptive about only offering 2x odds? You're being given a very low-cost game at $1 and effectively $3. But to prevent $10 customers from just playing $1 with 10x odds, they capped it. It's still the cheapest game in the house.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
January 17th, 2012 at 5:43:31 AM
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This comes back to the entire gambling for fun versus seriously trying to give yourself the best possible chance to NOT lose your money. I usually do everything possible to play the best game odds wise, yet in the long run, still lose. For smaller stakes, I wonder how much extra stress and pressure we put on oursleves in what should be, a relaxing time? If someone plays a bad game, loses something they can afford and doesnt feel bad about it, more power to them. Isnt that what a vacation should be??
January 17th, 2012 at 6:15:23 AM
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Quote: P90What's unfair or deceptive about only offering 2x odds? You're being given a very low-cost game at $1 and effectively $3. But to prevent $10 customers from just playing $1 with 10x odds, they capped it. It's still the cheapest game in the house.
20x odds is the standard in Tunica. There are a few places that offer 10x odds (Resorts being one of them) and 100x odds (Horseshoe). IMO, it's deceptive in the way Hollywood offers $1 BJ, where you still have to pay the quarter. They advertise $1 craps all over the place, but there's no small print that says only 2x odds. If you offer 10x odds on the "big game," then you're essentially offering worse rules.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
January 17th, 2012 at 7:48:31 AM
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Its always a question of small print versus large print.
When you get to the club will you be seeing the sign about 99 beautiful women and 3 ugly ones for the first time? Or will that sign also be in the advertisement? How large do they have to make the sign when they make the photo of the beautiful women five feet tall?
A strip club wants to emphasize beauty not the technical possibility of ugly women.
A casino want to push their craps game... not emphasize the 2x odds.
A casino wants to push their one dollar BJ... not the casino's virtually confiscatory and pleasure dampening surcharge.
Yet customers expect a certain amount of disclosure of salient features. If everybody in town is generous odds on craps, a casino that is a stingy 2x odds had better own up to it. If everybody in town is offering bottom dollar blackjack but one place imposes a surcharge that annoys many players, there should be some sort of disclosure.
I don't know where the lines should be drawn but casinos may well find out that their customers know!!
When you get to the club will you be seeing the sign about 99 beautiful women and 3 ugly ones for the first time? Or will that sign also be in the advertisement? How large do they have to make the sign when they make the photo of the beautiful women five feet tall?
A strip club wants to emphasize beauty not the technical possibility of ugly women.
A casino want to push their craps game... not emphasize the 2x odds.
A casino wants to push their one dollar BJ... not the casino's virtually confiscatory and pleasure dampening surcharge.
Yet customers expect a certain amount of disclosure of salient features. If everybody in town is generous odds on craps, a casino that is a stingy 2x odds had better own up to it. If everybody in town is offering bottom dollar blackjack but one place imposes a surcharge that annoys many players, there should be some sort of disclosure.
I don't know where the lines should be drawn but casinos may well find out that their customers know!!
January 17th, 2012 at 8:28:36 AM
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Quote: Tiltpoul20x odds is the standard in Tunica. There are a few places that offer 10x odds (Resorts being one of them) and 100x odds (Horseshoe). IMO, it's deceptive in the way Hollywood offers $1 BJ, where you still have to pay the quarter. They advertise $1 craps all over the place, but there's no small print that says only 2x odds.
There is no print that says there are free odds at all, while at that. If you want to play dice with $1 on the line, here you go. Offering any free odds with that was generous already.
If they offered 100x odds, no one would need the "big game" - why bother, just bet $1 and take free odds. Even at 10x odds, it would kill $10 games; $5 plus 10x odds roughly equals $10 plus standard 3x4x5x odds, at half the price. At 2x odds it's already the best option for betting any less than $30/roll.
The game costs you only $0.014 to play at minimum, less than one a pull of a quarter slot. At 30-40 bets resolved per hour, you're paying about $0.5/hour if you play $1+2x odds pass or don't pass only; that's versus $1.25/hour on a nickel slot at a slow 300 spins per hour. Add an occasional $0.5 bet for the dealer and you come to about even with a nickel slot - for a live game with real dealers, chips and dice, that's as cheap as it gets.
Limited odds are just a cannibalization protection so that if you want to bet bigger, you go to the normal table. I don't justify a lot of things "the dark side" does, but in this instance, the advertisement is for $1 craps, not for an opportunity to act smart and just play the minimum plus odds for your desired bet size. I see such a promotion as being aimed at novice or short-stacked players who are intimidated by $10 bet minimum, rather than at medium-rollers looking for the cheapest game.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
January 17th, 2012 at 1:09:21 PM
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I'll give you a little bit; maybe deceptive isn't the right word for the $1 craps. Truth be told, they could offer 20x odds on the table and they'd still be making money on hops, horns and big reds. People will continue to make those bets and that's where they get the long term money anyways....
That being said, when I went over to Resorts to play $1 craps, and saw the 2x odds, I was so turned off I didn't play table games there period. I honestly figured they would have at least 10x odds, more like 20x odds, where I would have played come and odds and those bets like crazy.
Overall, the $1 player doesn't care about odds (and probably doesn't know about them), but the advertisements and such really irk players who, like me, expect the odds to be similar to other games. Trump Plaza in AC has $3 craps with 10x odds, which is both a lower minimum and higher odds offering than many other AC casinos. You don't see them going out of... business... well...
That being said, when I went over to Resorts to play $1 craps, and saw the 2x odds, I was so turned off I didn't play table games there period. I honestly figured they would have at least 10x odds, more like 20x odds, where I would have played come and odds and those bets like crazy.
Overall, the $1 player doesn't care about odds (and probably doesn't know about them), but the advertisements and such really irk players who, like me, expect the odds to be similar to other games. Trump Plaza in AC has $3 craps with 10x odds, which is both a lower minimum and higher odds offering than many other AC casinos. You don't see them going out of... business... well...
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
January 17th, 2012 at 1:53:28 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearAs terrible as that game is, it's hard to argue with those kinds of results.
It's also going to be very hard to repeat those kind of results. If she played 120 hands during the two hours, she will have paid $30 in commissions. Using a standard deviation of $1.15 per hand, the total standard deviation for her session was $12.60. The likelihood that she would break even or better for such a session is about 1 in 100.
I don't think I would identify this as "gambling," as there is virtually no chance to win. If you want to call it "paying the casino for entertainment," so be it. Although I think most of the entertainment from gambling comes from the possibility of winning money, and that possibility doesn't really exist here.
January 17th, 2012 at 1:54:13 PM
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Quote: TiltpoulThat being said, when I went over to Resorts to play $1 craps, and saw the 2x odds, I was so turned off I didn't play table games there period. I honestly figured they would have at least 10x odds, more like 20x odds, where I would have played come and odds and those bets like crazy.
I'm sure you would. But the casino is taking loss on anyone playing only $1 with HA. You're only bringing in 1.4 cents (!) per bet, less than it costs to, well, anything. They are ready to take that loss to bring in players new to craps or table games in general, but not to draw them away from regular limit tables.
So, your level of action being more like $20, you probably went somewhere with $5 craps and played 3x odds (or more). That's still just 7 cents per bet, but with multiple bettors enough for the casino to break even.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
January 17th, 2012 at 3:01:11 PM
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It still comes back to fun versus expecation. The majority of posters on here understand house odds and such and then make a decision to pay. At these odds and rules, a player is making decision to have good time, not expecting to win. Nothing wrong with that and I also think there is nothing wrong with a casino making money off these players. When you add in the drinks and other overhead, they probably are not making much and wishing the player moves to a higher table.
January 17th, 2012 at 6:22:52 PM
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I doubt it. A 25c "ante" table wins about $30 from you hourly.
To match that on a real table, you would have to play at $25 table minimum as an unskilled player with simple strategy (draw to 11 vs 2-6, draw to 16 vs 7-A), or at a $100 table minimum as a skilled player.
To match that on a real table, you would have to play at $25 table minimum as an unskilled player with simple strategy (draw to 11 vs 2-6, draw to 16 vs 7-A), or at a $100 table minimum as a skilled player.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
February 27th, 2012 at 8:46:39 PM
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I have a $1 table in my Pit and we charge $.50/hand. i started it one night to see if i could raise my ante and rev. This table is now packed every weekend. I feel the same way about this game as any self respecteing BJ player...Booo, but for my older crowd, college crowd and the scared to play Tables crowd, this game is a great game to them. Most players end up betting more than the $1 min anyways.
I'm glad your wife had fun. I get stuck playing the Low Limits when i play with my GF and its fun...LESS STRESS.
I'm glad your wife had fun. I get stuck playing the Low Limits when i play with my GF and its fun...LESS STRESS.
"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
February 28th, 2012 at 2:33:54 AM
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I have to accept your numbers since I am so bad at math but I think there is a general agreement that there is a division between the ultra-cheap Blackjack and a lower-level player of what I guess we might as well call "Real" Blackjack.
Whether it be the presence of a Party Pit and a Pole, or it be the presence of an ante of a quarter or something, somewhere there is a dividing line between Surcharged Blackjack for Ignorant Cowards and Real Blackjack. Each player seems to have some sort of awareness of a demarcation.
Its similar to a casino where the craps game is 2x... the players know what is going on even if they don't really ever play more than 2x when they are at a 10x table.
The players know Cheap Casino catering to Cheap Players and the players are generally okay with it. The Cheap Player want to have fun, not arguments. The cheap player wants another free drink for her quarter ante before she staggers up to some new found friends room. The market for a casino is always a mix of the ignorant and the sharpies, the rich and the poor, ... casinos need a mix of customers. Some Black Chip players, Some Green, Some Red, Some White ... and if you make those White Chip Players kick a quarter first, so be it. The Black Chip player may notice but he won't play at that Silly Table. Well, he doesn't have to.
Whether it be the presence of a Party Pit and a Pole, or it be the presence of an ante of a quarter or something, somewhere there is a dividing line between Surcharged Blackjack for Ignorant Cowards and Real Blackjack. Each player seems to have some sort of awareness of a demarcation.
Its similar to a casino where the craps game is 2x... the players know what is going on even if they don't really ever play more than 2x when they are at a 10x table.
The players know Cheap Casino catering to Cheap Players and the players are generally okay with it. The Cheap Player want to have fun, not arguments. The cheap player wants another free drink for her quarter ante before she staggers up to some new found friends room. The market for a casino is always a mix of the ignorant and the sharpies, the rich and the poor, ... casinos need a mix of customers. Some Black Chip players, Some Green, Some Red, Some White ... and if you make those White Chip Players kick a quarter first, so be it. The Black Chip player may notice but he won't play at that Silly Table. Well, he doesn't have to.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:01:56 AM
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Quote: ShiftyRickyI have a $1 table in my Pit and we charge $.50/hand. i started it one night to see if i could raise my ante and rev. This table is now packed every weekend. I feel the same way about this game as any self respecteing BJ player...Booo, but for my older crowd, college crowd and the scared to play Tables crowd, this game is a great game to them. Most players end up betting more than the $1 min anyways.
I'm glad your wife had fun. I get stuck playing the Low Limits when i play with my GF and its fun...LESS STRESS.
Do you own a casino or manage one?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
February 28th, 2012 at 4:19:25 PM
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Quote: 1BBDo you own a casino or manage one?
I am second in charge of Table Games at a Casino
"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
February 29th, 2012 at 4:08:47 AM
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Wow, that's great! I suspect we have many casino employees on this site but very few identify themselves as such. You're certainly one of the higher ranking ones. Welcome!
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
