Red Flag Winnings

" Indeed, Dan. No matter what the amount or how ridiculously off expectation their winnings, they are theirs. Even if we highly suspected them of counting, they would be backed off but still allowed to keep their cheques. If we make a mistake and leave all the 10's in our Spanish 21 (it happens) and we get killed, they keep their money. If we install the reels backwards and someone hits a $1mm+ j/p (it happened), they get their money. "

Face : Not true as a general statement. Most jurisdictions would do as Colorado did !

DENVER — A Colorado woman who won $42.9 million off a penny slot machine saw her jackpot disappear when the casino said the payout message was an error.

Now Colorado gaming authorities are trying to find out what caused the phony fortune.

The false jackpot message went to Louise Chavez Friday while she was playing penny slots in the Fortune Valley Casino in Central City. The machine announced she'd won $42.9 million – a far richer sum than the posted top prize of $251,000.

Fortune Valley doesn't dispute that the machine told Chavez she'd won millions. But the casino says workers immediately told the gambler the message was an error and reported the mistake to the Colorado Division of Gaming, which regulates casinos.

Chavez says she's owed the full jackpot. The woman told news stations she earns only about $12,000 a year as a home assistant in suburban Denver.

"I just felt like, you know, I was being cheated. I was being cheated out of the money that I won," Chavez told KCNC-TV in Denver.

Colorado gaming authorities say the casino has no legal obligation to pay the $42.9 million. Don Burmania, a spokesman for the division, said the top prize of $251,000 was clearly posted in the casino and that a software malfunction is to blame for the glitch.

Quote: Keyser

In AC they are now banninng people for winning too much in certain casinos, thanks to deregulation.

Has that been reported anywhere or is it sheer anecdote?

Quote: DeadRats

Face : Not true as a general statement. Most jurisdictions would do as Colorado did !

There is a big difference.

1) Meeting conditions for winning a prize offered in a game of chance, with the randomness generator operating incorrectly, such as a reel installed backwards;
2) Being messaged about winning a prize that was never offered in the first place.

In the first case, you receive a prize N for matching symbols XXXXX. These are the rules of the game. IANAL, but I think the payout table might actually constitute a binding contract, which the customer enters with you when playing the machine. The RNG mistake on your part leads to unintended increase in the probability of meeting the payout conditions, but probability is not specified in the contract.

In the second case, you receive a message - which is a one-ended interaction and not a contract. There is no obligation on the casino's part to pay you anything. If the message asked you to insert 10 more coins for a 10% chance of getting your jackpot, then you'd have some claim and a leg to stand on.

With this in mind, as long as it was a software glitch, Behar Merlaku's case is likely to end up in him only pleasing himself - he never entered a contract to get paid if there are ringing bells, or to get paid what the machine tells him. The only contract was to get paid the advertised jackpot sum (presuming there was such, as advertising it is the whole point), and only if there are five jackpot symbols lined up.
His only chance would be if the machine's reels were mechanical and one of them indeed jammed while the RNG selected a jackpot. And that is if a $57 million jackpot was indeed offered, which seems unlikely, and if it wasn't, there is no chance for him.

This again has nothing to do with a machine mistakenly displaying five jackpot symbols or a royal flush for VP; in that case, payout conditions are met.

Quote: Lonesomegambler

Are you using entirely legal methods to win at your game?

Of course. I simply used my eyes and my brain. Over the course of two days.

Quote: Lonesomegambler

And in regards to AC 86'ing legal APs, I'm not aware of this happening (and it's certainly not legal in NJ), but I am aware of AC casinos backing off suspected APs, despite this also being illegal. The suits know that most APs won't fight a back off, so they break the rules with the intention to deny it later when they're called out on it. Eventually, someone will capture it on video and someone will get fired, but that's about it. No big deal either way, in my opinion.

Gaming, once they finally called back, said the decision was up to the casino. No I did not go to the press.
Like I've said, things have changed and they CAN now ban you. It's really simple to prove. Just go to the casino and ask. They will tell you that since they have been deregulated that there are no gaming officials in the casinos. The casinos are now supposed to regulate themselves. If they don't like you're action, then they can kick you out of your room in the middle of the night, and run you out of the casino.

Quote: MathExtremist

What were the circumstances in your scenario and how do they differ from the Merlaku case? In other words, why did your casino pay up right away rather than disputing the jackpot?

Well I wasn't there, so I don't have the full details, but...

It was the week we first opened, third day in if I remember correctly. Some guy plunked $400 into one of the machines and it hit for I think $1.4mm.

Our slot techs attended the machine, and for such a big win, either IGT or Bally's also has to send out one of their personnel. They do their slot verification and find, whoopsie, that the reels were installed incorrectly.

Now I imagine, both from examples posted here and the fact we're NY tribal, that maybe we could've just called foul and withheld payment. I don't know legally what leg we stood on. But I believe (and was hinted to) that it was paid out for customer service and PR reasons. That makes sense to me as it would be a pretty big black eye to a 3 day old operation to already be in the headlines for denying huge jackpots.

If there were other reasons it was paid without delay, I'm unaware of them.

Quote: Keyser

Of course. I simply used my eyes and my brain. Over the course of two days.

You weren't banned because you won too much, you
were banned for using visual ballistics, which the casino
has put in the same category as card counting. And
you were banned for being greedy. Showing up the
second day was a huge mistake, obviously. Did you really
think they were that stupid?

"Visual ballistics?" Now I have to know what you guys are talking about.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

"Visual ballistics?" Now I have to know what you guys are talking about.

VB is where you stare at the wheel until you can determine
where the ball might land next, based on what you've already
seen it do. This is what former biased wheel players have moved
onto now that biased wheels have gone the way of the horse
and buggy. Casinos are hip to them, and as long as they're
losing, which most of them do most of the time, they leave
them alone. If you get greedy, and like, I don't know, come
back for a SECOND DAY, they'll kick you out. Forever.

Quote: Face

Well I wasn't there, so I don't have the full details, but...

It was the week we first opened, third day in if I remember correctly. Some guy plunked $400 into one of the machines and it hit for I think $1.4mm.

Our slot techs attended the machine, and for such a big win, either IGT or Bally's also has to send out one of their personnel. They do their slot verification and find, whoopsie, that the reels were installed incorrectly.

Now I imagine, both from examples posted here and the fact we're NY tribal, that maybe we could've just called foul and withheld payment. I don't know legally what leg we stood on. But I believe (and was hinted to) that it was paid out for customer service and PR reasons. That makes sense to me as it would be a pretty big black eye to a 3 day old operation to already be in the headlines for denying huge jackpots.

If there were other reasons it was paid without delay, I'm unaware of them.

Obviously you're talking about a physical-reel game, so which one of the following was it:
(a) that the reel strips were mis-aligned and didn't show the winning outcome but the machine paid out the progressive anyway, or
(b) the reel strips were mis-aligned and *did* show the winning outcome (when it shouldn't have) but the machine didn't pay out, so the guy took a picture and started complaining?

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: LonesomeGambler

"Visual ballistics?" Now I have to know what you guys are talking about.

VB is where you stare at the wheel until you can determine
where the ball might land next, based on what you've already
seen it do. This is what former biased wheel players have moved
onto now that biased wheels have gone the way of the horse
and buggy. Casinos are hip to them, and as long as they're
losing, which most of them do most of the time, they leave
them alone. If you get greedy, and like, I don't know, come
back for a SECOND DAY, they'll kick you out. Forever.

So anyone who watches a roulette wheel and wins 2 days in a row is going to get banned? Thanks for explaining it. It's amazing more lucky players don't get banned if what you say is true. Oh wait, it isn't.

Quote: MarieBicurie

So anyone who watches a roulette wheel and wins 2 days in a row is going to get banned?

Only if they're winning. And lucky players get banned all
the time. I got banned myself in 2006 for being lucky.

You get banned when you wipe out most of the monthly hold

Quote: MathExtremist

Obviously you're talking about a physical-reel game, so which one of the following was it:
(a) that the reel strips were mis-aligned and didn't show the winning outcome but the machine paid out the progressive anyway, or
(b) the reel strips were mis-aligned and *did* show the winning outcome (when it shouldn't have) but the machine didn't pay out, so the guy took a picture and started complaining?

You know, I couldn't say for sure. I never asked the specifics, I was just told "a guy won the mil on a bunk wheel" and got the explaination I gave above. I'll ask the Day 1'er next time I see them again.

Is there a difference?

Also, back to the guys here getting 86'd - are you familiar with the Federal Innkeepers Law? I don't know it intimately, but in a training course with (that famous Vegas lawyer that works for players) he mentioned how casinos can open themselves up for lawsuits and mentioned this as one of the ways. Something about hotels having to honor a commitment for board. It doesn't apply if you commit a crime, but I wonder how it would apply in Keyser's situation. Sure, they can ban him from gaming without reason, but boot you out of a room in the middle of the night...?

Quote: Face

You know, I couldn't say for sure. I never asked the specifics, I was just told "a guy won the mil on a bunk wheel" and got the explaination I gave above. I'll ask the Day 1'er next time I see them again.

Is there a difference?

Sure -- in one case, the reels showed a winner but the machine didn't pay (because the machine didn't think it was a winner), vs. the other case where the reels showed a loser but then the machine tilted for handpay anyway. In other words, was it a false winner or a false loser?

Sorry, yeah I get win vs loss, but I meant does it affect the story? Is one more impressive than the other?

From what I got, it showed a winner visually but wasn't one in reality. I could be wrong but that's the impression I got. But then again, if it showed and wasn't one, I'd expect some drama between the player and the techs, some additional story pieces in there which weren't mentioned. It'll be a bit before I see this person again, but I'll try and find out.

Quote: Keyser

If they don't like you're action, then they can kick you out of your room in the middle of the night, and run you out of the casino.

Nope. Unless its a comped room, they can't kick you out of the hotel, only the casino.

Quote: Face

Is there a difference?

I think there is. The payout table probably has the strength of a contract, if it comes down to court trial. Winner bells and screens announcements, on the other hand, certainly don't, because (AFAIK, IANAL) there must be reciprocity for there to be a contract. I.e. a document entitling someone to $1M for his overall awesomeness is not a contract and not enforceable, except as a last will, while a written promise to pay someone $1M in exchange for a silver dollar is enforceable.

Quote: Face

Nope. Unless its a comped room, they can't kick you out of the hotel, only the casino.

I was there on a comp.

Of course by now they've sent your pic and described
your action to every casino in AC, and probably PA.
Thats the big thing now. Theres a new documentary
coming out made by a card counter who went all
over the country and recorded it all on his Iphone. He
says if he got barred from one casino, he would get
stopped at the door of the next casino down the line,
and 2 casinos after that he'd last maybe 15min until
they 'made' him from the pic they were sent. Even
if he was wearing a disguise. The future is here..

Quote: EvenBob

Of course by now they've sent your pic and described
your action to every casino in AC, and probably PA.

Even bigger. We get notices from Canada, the Far East, Uruguay...and it doesn't have to be a Tran-level caper. If you do something of note, then a few clicks sends your profile to every corner of the globe. Crazy stuff.

Quote: Face

then a few clicks sends your profile to every corner of the globe. Crazy stuff.

Casinos are cooperating with each other in unprecedented
ways. Just a few years ago it was 'screw the other casinos',
they can have this guy. Now they're warning each other and
keeping in touch about everything. Very depressing for advantage
players.

Quote: EvenBob

Casinos are cooperating with each other in unprecedented
ways. Just a few years ago it was 'screw the other casinos',
they can have this guy. Now they're warning each other and
keeping in touch about everything. Very depressing for advantage
players.

Indeed. It used to be a pride thing. No one would want it to get out that they'd been taken, it was seen as a weakness. Nowadays, you're right on. The level of cooperation between all levels of gaming is at an all time high, and guys like Bill Zender and Willy Allison are leading the surge to get everyone interconnected and working together.

Times they are a'changin'.

Quote: Evenbob

Casinos are cooperating with each other in unprecedented
ways. Just a few years ago it was 'screw the other casinos',
they can have this guy. Now they're warning each other and
keeping in touch about everything. Very depressing for advantage
players.

Sorry, but in recent years, that just hasn't been my experience. As a matter of fact I've seen just the opposite. I see more of the "Well that's just XXX casino. We'd love to have your action here". Casinos are arrogant. Most casinos are very inefficient and communication moves slower than the post office. A good example was the Player Don/ Doug Johnson. He won millions in AC at the various casinos. Another example are those dice sliders/setters that just early this year, took the Wynn for 700k. (By the way, they were exonerated and won their dispute. No charges were filed. Rumor has it that several dealers were fired.) People mistakenly tend to believe that these casinos are high tech spies that are watching your every move at every moment. However, they are not. They are high tech, but they are understaffed. Employees are poorly trained and tend to be hired based on ethnicity rather than skill sets. The casinos are run more like your local water department or post office. If they weren't so poorly run, then many of the so called casino risk consultants wouldn't also be AP players.

With tough times, the casinos are still competing to get players like Don Johnson into the casino to play big. They are willing to give them large rebates on any losses and the best suite in the hotel, despite the warnings. For players like him the plane is on call, and the limo will be waiting for them at the airport.

-Keyser

Quote: Keyser

Sorry, but in recent years, that just hasn't been my experience.

Of course not, it never is. If somebody says black, you
always say white. You always (always!) take the opposite
stance of whatever's said, because you're the reigning
authority. Speaking to you on the phone or in chat, its
one BS statement after another with you. And if you're
caught at it, its a big 'ha ha, I was only kidding you'.
Truth is, I don't believe a word you say. If you told me
the sun was shining I'd look to make sure, because it
probably isn't. (I've known this guy under the 14 other
names he uses on other forums for years. We have history.)

Im sorry Bob but you clearly have me confused with someone else. Regarding my statments they can be verified.

Quote: Keyser

Im sorry Bob but you clearly have me confused with someone else.

LOL!!! Sure I do...

Quote: Keyser

In AC they are now banninng people for winning too much in certain casinos, thanks to deregulation.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Has that been reported anywhere or is it sheer anecdote?

The lack of a response speaks volumes.

I can discretely prove my case. Yes, I was banned there.

So prove it, who's stopping you.
Thats banned for winning too much, BTW.
Prove you were banned for winning too much, not
something else.

Ok, who lives on the East Coast?

deleted

Quote: Keyser

I can discretely prove my case. Yes, I was banned there.

Just curious, why would it have to be discretely? Post here the EVIDENCE of the BANNING and for what reason. Not this......."Joe Smith said I was" routine. (lol)

Ken

Hello......

Quote: Keyser

Another example are those dice sliders/setters that just early this year, took the Wynn for 700k. (By the way, they were exonerated and won their dispute. No charges were filed. Rumor has it that several dealers were fired.)-Keyser

What do you mean, "exonerated" and "they won their dispute?"

Wynn filed a civil suit against them last fall, and to my knowledge it has not yet been resolved.

They may not have been charged (the lady was, however, jailed for a couple days), but being sued for $700,000 is certainly not an exoneration, or the result of winning a dispute.

Plus, while Poker Stars still sponsors the guy, they cut the woman loose and no longer sponsor her.

Please post a link to buttress your claim, as I have been following this issue and would welcome any update in the case, which apparently you claim to have.

Thank you.

Besides, Fernandez has already spent a week in jail and Dabul spent a couple of days there, too.

....and once again, Keyser gets cornered, he'll wait it out til the dust settles, then reappear again. (lol)

Ken

I was told by someone close to the group that gaming had completed the casino/patron dispute and that no charges were filed against the players. I was told that they had ruled on the side of the players. In other words, NO CHARGES WERE FILED AGAINST THE PLAYERS.

The civil suit is a different matter that does not involve criminal charges.

Regarding Mr. Jjj.... I thought he had found a winning system for roulette? He said that he had purchased 50% of an Italian restaurant with his little system. So exactly why is he still trolling and attention whoring on this board? Can somebody please buy the boy a puppy or something, so that he can get the attention that he's needs?

-Keyser

Quote: Keyser

Yes it can be verified. As a matter of fact the pit and the dealers will tell you that they are now 86 ing big winners at the Trump Plaza. I was one of them.

How long has it been since you were banned and have you been back since?

Quote: Keyser

I was told by someone close to the group that gaming had completed the casino/patron dispute and that no charges were filed against the players. I was told that they had ruled on the side of the players. In other words, NO CHARGES WERE FILED AGAINST THE PLAYERS.

The civil suit is a different matter that does not involve criminal charges.

Regarding Mr. Jjj.... I thought he had found a winning system for roulette? He said that he had purchased 50% of an Italian restaurant with his little system. So exactly why is he still trolling and attention whoring on this board? Can somebody please buy the boy a puppy or something, so that he can get the attention that he's needs?

-Keyser

Quote it wrong 500 times, I'll correct you 500 times, not a problem. Yep, 50% owner.......you sound jealous Farnsworth3? Good, you should be. It was 80% (est.) of my winnings and as of January 1st, I'm not longer part owner. I dont play systems, I play methods. BTW......good luck with your gamblers fallacy type of play this weekend. Where are you driving to IN SEARCH OF that bias wheel (cough)? (LMFAO)

Idaho perhaps? Gas prices will be going up soon so you better budget for that.

Ken

1bb,

It was back in July.

I'm


checking out the Potowatami tonight and just left the Horse Shoe Hammond.

Quote: Keyser

1bb,

It was back in July.

I'm


checking out the Potowatami tonight and just left the Horse Shoe Hammond.

Have a good time Herb.

Ken

Quote: Paigowdan

Thanks!
The 10 to 1 spread is a flat-out giveaway, as it is out of the norm. C'mon, now: it is clear that the vast majority of BJ players are flat-betting tourists or yokels, so a spread would be noticed, whether or not it is connected with card-counting guilt. ("Mom! Dan is showing his colors again!....")

Certainly, there is no way to take advantage of counting without a spread, so the flat-bettors are "pointing' to the "potentially' guilty party at the table. I can hear some players think: "Dammit, bet more, buddy, so you can take some heat off me, sheesh!" (You are innocent unless proven guilty, except in a casino...)

I like the BJ variant "2 thru 7" as it has an inherent resistance to card counting.

This conversation fascinates me as I'm an aspiring amateur card counter, especially since there are a couple people on this board from the casino side of it.

It seems like you guys are overestimating how much a bet spread will trigger immediate attention. On my last trip to Vegas I was spreading $25-$250 and was never backed off, win or lose (I had some sessions of both). The key for the "smart counter" (haha) is to hit and run. Be anonymous, don't stay anywhere long, and stay even shorter if you win. By the time the pit boss is suspicious and the eye is watching, you should be gone. I would like to move up to higher stakes at some point, which will mean this strategy will no longer work probably.

I am a rank amateur (only 1 trip to Vegas counting), but this bore out on my one trip. Around my local casinos it seems to be even looser, which doesn't make sense since they are smaller card rooms that can't really handle a lot of variance. I have even started spreading 1-20 here and have yet to receive any heat. I have jumped my bets from $5 to $100 (table limits are $300 here) without so much as a "checks play" from the dealer, and the pit boss nowhere in sight. Now I understand they may not perceive a spread at this low of a betting level to be a threat, but it surprised me.

I don't think the guys are overestimating and you'll realize that once you've played in a variety of casinos. When a skills check is performed on a player, betting spread is one of several things taken into consideration. If that evaluation determines that you are not a threat , you'll be allowed to spread to your heart's content. Most card counters are allowed to ply their "trade" because most of them lose.

Today's modern surveillance software eliminates the staring pit boss in more and more casinos. You can be backed off with no warning and many times it will be when you are losing!

Playing unrated can raise a red flag before you place your first bet. Why would you turn down comps unless you are up to something? Another red flag would be making your base bet at the start of a new shoe after having your max bet out at the end of the previous shoe. This is where short sessions come in.

These things and much more are carefully watched by the casinos which are almost always one up on the players.

Quote: 1BB

I don't think the guys are overestimating and you'll realize that once you've played in a variety of casinos. When a skills check is performed on a player, betting spread is one of several things taken into consideration. If that evaluation determines that you are not a threat , you'll be allowed to spread to your heart's content. Most card counters are allowed to ply their "trade" because most of them lose.

Yeah I'm new to this, so I should have been more careful with my wording - not trying to call out the old timers, especially with casino experience! Just sharing my (very raw) experiences. Apologies if I came off arrogant.

Quote:

Today's modern surveillance software eliminates the staring pit boss in more and more casinos. You can be backed off with no warning and many times it will be when you are losing!

I understand the software that is out there, but based on what I've read and what is feasible with software these days (of which I do know a few things), running a skills check on someone from upstairs is not a quick and easy process, and the eye is not staffed with nearly enough guys to run it on anyone who sits down making big bets. So doesn't the decision to run a software skills check require interaction with the pit? "Hey, this guy is spreading like nuts, start dumping his shoes into XYZ Counter Catcher Software while I keep an eye on him." Sure the pit could communicate this without the player knowing, but it seems the easiest way for them to do so would be to get on the phone, which would be obvious to the player.

From what I've understood about the casino surveillance industry (mostly from books, which could all be wrong and out of date by now), the ratio of guys staffing the video screens to active gaming tables is very low (1:10? 1:50? I have no idea). The guys upstairs don't watch every table closely, but jump from table to table looking for anything suspicious, and other than that take direction from the pit. This seems to make sense, but I could be way off. If you have better info, please enlighten me :) (if you so choose, it's your choice of course to share any info with me).

Quote:

Playing unrated can raise a red flag before you place your first bet. Why would you turn down comps unless you are up to something?

Yep, which is why this strategy won't work for any kind of high-limit betting. I think I'm pretty much hitting the max with my $25-$250 spread. I usually just try to make up some excuse ("nah, if my girlfriend knew I was gambling...") or feign ignorance. I'm not a great actor, which I realize is important to successful counting, so I'm working on it.

Quote:

Another red flag would be making your base bet at the start of a new shoe after having your max bet out at the end of the previous shoe. This is where short sessions come in.

Yep, currently I'm basing my play style on Ian Andersen's section on Green Chip Play from Burning the Tables In Vegas. One of his rules is if you reach your top bet on any shoe, leave at the end of that shoe no matter what, win or lose. This takes discipline since once you get stuck the natural inclination is to try to crawl out of it.

Quote:

These things and much more are carefully watched by the casinos which are almost always one up on the players.

Yep, it's a constant cat and mouse game! I find it entertaining just to think about, really. I'm going to try really hard on my future trips to not get backed off, but we'll see how long it takes, it's kind of inevitable I'm sure.

The pit boss calls surveillance when counting is suspected and they take it from there. You shouldn't read anything into a pit boss being on the phone- it's part of their job. You didn't come off arrogant at all. Keep posting!

Quote: WizardofEngland

How can this person exist? If they play by the rules, they CANNOT be any sort of advantage player by definition. What advantage do they have?

NOT IN EUROPE, of course. WoE, that's why we declared independence, way back, so we could offer FP 100+ in LV, at least. Of course, in those daqys LV was just a brainchild of.....................Ben Franklin? A penny earned at VP is a penny saved to the bankroll? Am I close?

Quote: AcesAndEights

I usually just try to make up some excuse ("nah, if my girlfriend knew I was gambling...") or feign ignorance.

I tell them I won't be there very long, I'm
meeting my wife for dinner as soon as she
calls. Always emphasize the time thing, if
they think you won't play long they won't
want to rate you anyway.

Quote: AcesAndEights

If you have better info, please enlighten me :)

Ask and ye shall receive.

I think it might be you who is underestimating the attention a 10x spread will garner. "Attention" doesn't necessarily mean Pits frantically dialing, a suit over your shoulder, Floormen giving you the stink eye. "Attention" is any member of the casino noting and reporting your actions. Everyone's familiar with the Pit giving you the eye and going to the phone. Still others must obviously assume Surveillance may be watching. But what about the dealer who taps off, goes to the back of house, and informs Table Games management? Or the Security that just happens to notice the piles changing as he makes his rounds? It's not uncommon for guys on the floor to spot something, then report it once they come off on break. Don't assume that just because you don't see the obvious that you aren't already painted. A 10x is more than enough to make me look. Hell, 5x is enough...

The software stuff kills me, being that I'm more old school about most things. Sure, to get a computer analyzed report, it's going to take a while, maybe 4-5 hours best case scenario. But give me a pen and paper, and I can start building a case within a few shoes and in real time. If the shoes happen to come out nicely and I get a good spread of positive, negative, and neutral shoes, I can sometimes peg someone within the hour. That rarely happens, but a person's typical session is enough to give me an idea. If you leave and I have suspicion , then on the shelf you go until you come back. Your pic and details are spread around the department, and once you come back we carry on from where we left off. I'm not meaning to sound puffed up about this, but understand, this is our life. Counting, basic strategy, Il18, all that stuff is what we do day in and day out for years. Sure, we can be beat, and it happens often, but we have all the tools in the world to find you, identify you, and spread your info across the globe. The money you won is yours to keep, but at that point, your game is over.

No problems thus far does not mean you are safe. We had a guy here last year, one of the members of the Hyland count team. Came in all shaved, with different glasses, and about 30lbs lighter than the pics floating around the biz. Still, a guy visually identified him immediately. And...we let him play. We see what he's up to, how he plays, who he may be playing with. Who knows, maybe we identify some new players. Here's a big time counter, and for a few days, maybe he too thought he was OK. Nope. We let him stick around, refresh and add some info to his file, confirm he's still counting, THEN show him the door. Could be you really are off the radar, or could be they've got you pegged and are just building a file.

Good luck to you. If you're doing it for kicks, hell, I do it too. I play mad light ($5-$10) and with a positively sad bet spread (2x), but I can't help but count. It's what I do. If you also do it for kicks, then enjoy it while it lasts. These days, there will be an end.

Quote: Keyser

1bb,

It was back in July.

I'm


checking out the Potowatami tonight and just left the Horse Shoe Hammond.

Ok, I wasn't gonna post but I'm a fair guy. I spotted you kind of easily. You are tall, wear glasses, you had your arms folded for well over 2 hours and you were looking straight at me. (lol) Dont ask me questions, I won't answer. It is TRUE, Keyser was there, thats why I asked what time. Did you even play or just walk around? In terms of the RE machine, I have no idea every inch of the building you were at. Maybe you checked it out, there's no way you could of got a seat, that I know. The Pot is a s**thole, I have never denied that.

Ken

Thanks for the response Face, I really appreciate it. Everything you have written jives with my worldview...I think I have avoided suspicion so far, but as you said it's easy to have suspicion and never know it until you come back later and are 86'd.

I look at it as a hobby for right now, but one that may, over the years, provide me with some supplementary income (perhaps equivalent to the money other people spend on their hobbies).

As much as I sometimes hate my day job, given the current conditions I wouldn't want to depend on counting cards for my income. I know it has been done in the past but it's getting harder and harder, as you well know.

Now poker on the other hand...I'm still learning :).