Creating 8-deck BJ game for friends at a party: looking to create ruleset for 0.00% edge game

[thread edited for clarification]

I bought a shoe and blackjack layout recently. My friends love playing blackjack while I deal over a few drinks, so I figured I'd give them a good game to play. We won't use cash chips (I'm not the "house", I'm just dealing), so I don't care about counting or anything like that.

I'm lazy and don't want to shuffle all the time, so I'm going to utilize an entire 8-deck shoe. I want to offer a game with a realistic expectation of 0.00% using perfect basic strategy. Using the Wizard's calculator, I have the following rules: S17, DAS, RS to 4 hands, RSA, HSA, late surrender, 3 to 2. My realistic edge is 0.12%.

What other stuff can I add to the game to lower the house edge just enough to where it's at 0? Would simply adding early surrender do the trick, or would it send it too much into player +EV? I kinda wanted to add it, as tens and aces aren't fun to be up against, haha. I'm also considering five/six-card charlie, suited blackjacks, triple down, etc.

Additionally, I also want a rule set, still using eight decks, with an absurd player edge, which I'll adopt when everybody's drunk. Any good suggestions? How high can I get the player edge using realistic casino rules?

On another note, can I get an explanation on "Player loses only original bet against dealer BJ"? If the dealer has blackjack, doesn't the dealer peek for it, and subsequently all action is killed before the player has the chance to split or double down? Why is this worth .10%?

Thanks a lot.

Use Spanish 21 rules without the 10s removed.

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I guess I should have been clear that this is completely for fun. Any gambling will be player against player, primarily chip counts. We'll probably bet a flat amount on who will have the most chips at the end of each shoe. I'm not a house, I'm a dealer, and I could probably even participate as a player AND dealer simultaneously if we use European rules.

I looked up Spanish 21's house edge with the 10s still in play: https://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/spanish21.html - a player edge of 1.49%? That's a bit high for the main game. Or is it only that high due to all of the game's weird bonuses? I'm not very familiar with Spanish 21. At first, that sounded like a good idea, but I don't want to deal with bonuses and other weird rules that won't matter at all to my players.

I still wanted the rules for A) a perfectly neutral 8-deck game and B) and broken (for the player) game. While it won't mean much my players, it does to me.

Can't, for whichever reason(s), because some may be card-counting while others not.

Quote: Garnabby

Can't, for whichever reason(s), because some may be card-counting while others not.

None of my friends are card counters. This is a casual environment. Even if they were, that doesn't change what I'm looking for. I'm asking for the numbers on the game using basic strategy.

What's with the hostility? :/ I figured a blackjack expert could give me an answer with little effort. I don't think I've done anything wrong.

Quote: Funbox

I'm asking for the numbers on the game using basic strategy.

Well, if no one is to play it, then you still can't. Very unlikely that anyone can find such rules to exactly theoretically even it out.

Quote: Funbox

What's with the hostility? :/ I figured a blackjack expert could give me an answer with little effort. I don't think I've done anything wrong.

Just giving you an honest answer.

Use a normal, realistic, generous ruleset. You don't need to get to an exactly 0.00% house edge. Even a .1-.2% house edge will allow your players to win with just normal variance. You really don't need to worry about a large skew towards the house with the limited games and hands you are dealing.

You could add a Charlie rule which would make things more fun, I think, or 7-7-7/6-7-8 bonus, double on any number of cards, hit and/or double on split aces, etc. I wouldn't recommend a surrender rule 'cause that doesn't really make the game more "fun" (who thinks it is fun to surrender?) Maybe even something crazy like 2-for-1 on "Black Jack" blackjacks. Be creative with it.

I tried to get a blackjack game going with friends with me as the house (a la The Wizard) but they are too smart for that. They only want to play poker :) Hazards of hanging out with students . . .

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I think its fun to surrender. Better to lose at a 75% rate as opposed to a 76% rate or more. Good way to learn BS.

Yes, but you're a blackjack nerd :) Most aren't.

(And I've prospectively already backed you off from my game ... heh)

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If you're unable to get perfect rules, you could have a game with a 1% house edge, force them to flat bet "10" and refund them a buck every ten hands. In reality, anything around .1% should pass as good enough.

Thanks to Paigowdan, I got a simple answer to my question, for those who are curious.

A fair 8-deck game:

Stand on soft 17
Double after split
Resplit any pairs four times
Hit split aces
Late surrender
3-2
Blackjack all in a certain suit [choose a suit beforehand] pays 2-1.

He suggested diamonds, but one fun thing I can do is offer the person cutting the card to choose ahead of time which suit he wants to pay 2-1 for Blackjacks before the shoe begins.

That fulfills my nerdy desire to create a fair game.

Now, I wanted to create an absurdly player-favorable game, using only rules found in actual casinos. I have this right here as a guide: https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/rule-variations.html - How high can I get the player edge without the game being a huge, stupid gimmick?

Can I use the exact numbers on this page to figure out the edge added by using these rules, using simple addition (or, uh, subtraction)? Or is it not that simple?

I still also want to know what "Player loses only original bet against dealer BJ" means, assuming action is killed the instant the dealer flips over the ace and a ten. Doesn't this only apply to European rules? When do you have the chance to add more to your original bet? What's with the .10%?

No one else has mentioned it, but it sounds like NONE of your friends will be playing perfect basic strategy.

So even if you come up with a set of rules that, ideally, reduces the house edge to zero, you, as the house, will STILL have a house edge... and probably a decent sized one that that.

Expect to see some of your friends not doubling when they should, doubling when they shouldn't, taking insurance when they shouldn't, etc.

I acknowledge all of this, but I think mathematically where others don't. It's to my own betterment to know that I am offering a game that expects 0%, even if I get more due to poorer play from my opponents. I don't want to feel like a "casino". I accept others' ignorance - if I get an edge there, so be it, but it's not due to the circumstances of the game.

As to comments such as "just for fun".... you are gravely mistaken if you think everyone is going to play and 'come out even' by the end of the night or whatever. This is gambling, and it doesnt work like that, not ever. Your friends should know there will be winners and losers. Have you prepared yourself to deal with somewhat bemused winners but also very, very angry friends? ex-friends?

I deal the mc parties all the time using the following ruleset. When I do and the players come close to basic strategy-believe me they usually don't want to do the right thing-I have seen fewer than 5 go down 15 units when flat betting. Benefit is that it is easier to deal and no confusion of "1-suit 2-1 BJs" which you will appriciate if you are having a few. We only use 4 decks so using 8 should flatten it a little. I think I had this clocked at about -2% HE here on the board.


S-17
2-1 BJ, all suits
Split any 2 (no split of Q-K, even though both are 10)
Unlimited re-splits, including As
One card on split As
no surrender (too confusing for newbie players and dealers alike)
5 card Charlie (optional)

If you were to hire me to do a party and say to "make it fun but real" this is the rules I would place. If you wanted the players to get a little more advantage I'd add in the 5 Card Charlie.

The five-card Charlie is a bit too unusual, - VERY rare, and is virtually unknown to players, - to use to even up the edge.
NO casino currently uses that mechanism, as that mechanism is very alien.

The suited BJ in one suit to even the house edge IS well known via Superfun-21, as a very standard game mechanism.

And it has a LOT of flexibility:
1. You can use TWO suited BJ's at 2:1 for a dramatic increase in player egde....
2. You can use ONE suited BJ, AND THEN further limit it to AK or AQ of that suit, - to make it a very fine and narrow house edge/player edge mechanism...
3. You can also reduce/eliminate unused features such as surrender or "split aces to four hands out (unlikely), and STILL get flexibility to zero-in on a 0.00% house edge!

The "suited 2:1 Bonus" on Blackjacks was first thought out by (the sadly late) Howard Grossman of SuperFun-21 as a brilliant mechanism to finely-tune house edges on that game - for purposes such as this! It has HUGE lattitude (ALL BJ's pay 2:1) for a HUGE increase in player edge, to a VERY NARROW and SLIGHT player edge ("ONLY Diamoind BJ's with an AK pay 2:1).
You can add and subtract a 4.0% range, down to a 0.02% range - just by limiting an easy-to-remember 2:1 Blacjkack payout range!
Thanks to Howard Grossman [RIP!]

- you can add or eliminate complex and confusing BJ features that FEW people use or will likely see ("split aces to four hands" "hit aces after splitting" "late surrender") that just confuscate the game...
- by stating "2:1 bonus on suited BJ's", and adjusting it to two suits to increase player edge, or limiting it within ONE suit by making it "diamonds with AK only", etc.

1. KEEP that base game simple and easy to remember and play by removing obscure features that no one will use or remember!, and
2. Adjust the games Blackjack payouts adding tiny or larger amount of 2:1 suited BJ payouts.

A good 0.0% game is this:
1. 2 decks to 8 decks;
2. DAS, DOA - as in standard Blackjack! Split to 4 hands, one card after spltting Aces. SAME AS ALREADY PLAYED!
3. KEEP the game as simple and as standard as we love and know! The same as we love and know! NO confounding extraneous rule crap! Lose surrender and ANY oddball stuff!
3. H17 - as in standard BJ!
4. Only adjust the BJ's: SUITED BK'S PAY 2:1

Same great game!
Same regular rules we ALL play by!
ALL suited BJ's pay 2:1, else non-suited BJ's pay 3:2
0.0% house edge!
Same game with NO fancy shit to learn

The suited Blacjkack adjustment keeps ALL the basic rules the same.
And it can be finely tuned as need, in an easy to remember and implement fashion.
For any simple and easy BJ game you want, and for any house edge you want, including 0.0% to 5.5% to -4.9%.

1. Select simple standard rules that everyone ALREADY PLAYS BY: DAS, DOA, H17. That's the limit for the "same game" blackjack!"
2. Add "any suited BJ" pays 2:1.
3. You got your basic 0.0% game.
4. Now make the phone calls and set up the game.

Quote: Funbox

What other stuff can I add to the game to lower the house edge just enough to where it's at 0.

I wouldn't add anything strange or unusual or not likely to be encountered in a "real" game in a casino. To make it a pleasant game amongst friends who enjoy Blackjack ... make it an ordinary rule set such as might be found in the high limit room of a good Strip casino. Don't go for 0.0 house edge by adding strange stuff. Get as close to 0.0 as is reasonable without adding unusual items.

Keep the game very simple - with simple basic rules so that people may and will PLAY an easy game.

Keep all the basic rules the same as in the casinos, as they already know.

Adjust a few basic Blackjack payouts on "easy to remember" suits, to adjust the house edge to exactly what you want it to be.

Do not add any obscure rules ("you may surrender a hand, if it is against a dealer's 7, 8, 9, or 10, but not an Ace - and if it is a Tuesday and it is raining.")

So Keep the rules VERY SIMPLE: 8 decks: DOA, DAS, dealer hits S17, Blackjack pays 3:2. That is it.

That is your goal of elegance and simplicity on the game, so that people will want to play it.

Adjust the house edge to as close 0.00% by adjusting the Blackjack payout on 2:1 suited BJ payouts.
House edge too high? Pay 2:1 on all suited blackjacks
House edge too low? Pay 2:1 on one suited blackjacks.
Still too low?: pay "black" suited blackjacks 2:1.

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