Illustrious 18 with Surrender
October 30th, 2011 at 1:52:10 PM
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I have a question about what to do when surrender is allowed and you are using the Illustrious 18 indicies for the high-low counting system.
https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/count/highlow1.html
Here is my explicit interpretation of the strategy:
*edit changed "Double" to "Stand" 11/23/11
I am a little confused on how surrendering works with some of the counting indices. For example, “16 Vs. 10” for a count of +0 and “15 Vs. 10” for +4. I assume the strategy is to stand when the count is equal to or higher than the index number? But basic strategy says to surrender (or hit) in both cases. Are you supposed to overide the surrender and stand in each case?
Then also there is the Fab 4 surrenders which give 15 vs 10 for +0 and 15 vs 9 for +2. Again basic strategy is to surrender in both cases. Are you supposed to hit instead if the count is less than these indices?
Thanks in advance for any help.
https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/count/highlow1.html
Here is my explicit interpretation of the strategy:
| Order | Play | Index Number |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Take Insurance | +3 |
| 2 | Stand 16 Vs. 10 | +0 |
| 3 | Stand 15 Vs. 10 | +4 |
| 4 | Split 10,10 Vs. 5 | +5 |
| 5 | Split 10,10 Vs. 6 | +4 |
| 6 | Double 10 Vs. 10 | +4 |
| 7 | Stand 12 Vs. 3 | +2 |
| 8 | Stand 12 Vs. 2 | +3 |
| 9 | Double 11 Vs. A | +1 |
| 10 | Double 9 Vs. 2 | +1 |
| 11 | Double 10 Vs. A | +4 |
| 12 | Double 9 Vs. 7 | +3 |
| 13 | Stand 16 Vs. 9 | +5 |
| 14 | Stand* 13 Vs. 2 | -1 |
| 15 | Stand* 12 Vs. 4 | +0 |
| 16 | Stand* 12 Vs. 5 | -2 |
| 17 | Stand* 12 Vs. 6 | -1 |
| 18 | Stand* 13 Vs. 3 | -2 |
I am a little confused on how surrendering works with some of the counting indices. For example, “16 Vs. 10” for a count of +0 and “15 Vs. 10” for +4. I assume the strategy is to stand when the count is equal to or higher than the index number? But basic strategy says to surrender (or hit) in both cases. Are you supposed to overide the surrender and stand in each case?
Then also there is the Fab 4 surrenders which give 15 vs 10 for +0 and 15 vs 9 for +2. Again basic strategy is to surrender in both cases. Are you supposed to hit instead if the count is less than these indices?
Thanks in advance for any help.
October 30th, 2011 at 2:23:18 PM
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Always surrender when you can, if the BS says so.
The index is for when surrender is impossible, like 3-card 16, or not allowed by the rules.
The index is for when surrender is impossible, like 3-card 16, or not allowed by the rules.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
October 30th, 2011 at 3:02:17 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 30th, 2011 at 4:06:35 PM
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OK, thanks. I wish the Wizard would explicitly put that into the table. He doesn't mention about hitting anywhere.
October 30th, 2011 at 6:32:26 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 30th, 2011 at 10:41:23 PM
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why is 16 vs 9 a hit if below +5?
wizard means hit a 16 vs 9 when it is +4? unbelievable....
wizard means hit a 16 vs 9 when it is +4? unbelievable....
October 30th, 2011 at 10:43:09 PM
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Quote: SafeGamingwhy is 16 vs 9 a hit if below +5?
wizard means hit a 16 vs 9 when it is +4? unbelievable....
sorry, i get it..
November 8th, 2011 at 8:46:28 AM
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Quote: weaselmanAlways surrender when you can, if the BS says so.
The index is for when surrender is impossible, like 3-card 16, or not allowed by the rules.
i think OP is refering to "fab 4" surrender, its easy to get 15 vs 10 with TC less than 0 even with csm if u glance at full table.
also, is "fab 4 surrender" only for late surrender and dealer peek for blackjack?
we should ignore fab 4 if early surrender is allow and no hole card rule? 14 vs 10 a little tricky here...
November 8th, 2011 at 9:32:12 AM
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In case it is not clear, go by the Fab Four table is surrender is an option. Otherwise, go by the ILL-18 table. My table never said to double on a hard total. It says to double or stand on a true count greater or equal to the index value. It should be obvious what the best choice is. If not, perhaps a good book on blackjack is in order.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 8th, 2011 at 6:55:52 PM
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i refer to BS in no hole card rule, and fine points to surrender in appendix that we should surrender a hard 14 vs 10 if no hole card rule or early surrender is allowed.
however fab 4 table says only surrender a 14 vs 10 at +3 or greater, which is very abnormal to get in a 4 deck csm machine where we are not counting , just by glancing at tables cards.
i cant find anything that indicate whether fab 4 is "only" for late surrender and hole card rule or not.
if fab 4 is for any rule, then shouldnt the norm is to hit a 14 vs 10 ? in no hole card rule and early surrender is allowed.
however fab 4 table says only surrender a 14 vs 10 at +3 or greater, which is very abnormal to get in a 4 deck csm machine where we are not counting , just by glancing at tables cards.
i cant find anything that indicate whether fab 4 is "only" for late surrender and hole card rule or not.
if fab 4 is for any rule, then shouldnt the norm is to hit a 14 vs 10 ? in no hole card rule and early surrender is allowed.
November 15th, 2011 at 8:00:58 AM
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Yes, it says to double or stand (or split) on a true count greater than or equal to the index value. It does NOT say anything about just hitting.
It does not make any distinction about soft or hard hands. I assume that none of the Illustrious 18 applies to soft hands.
I am not sure why anything in Blackjack should be "obvious" especially when you are trying to learn something. Why not go the extra small step and avoid confusion?
It does not make any distinction about soft or hard hands. I assume that none of the Illustrious 18 applies to soft hands.
I am not sure why anything in Blackjack should be "obvious" especially when you are trying to learn something. Why not go the extra small step and avoid confusion?
November 15th, 2011 at 10:06:17 AM
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Quote: paisielloYes, it says to double or stand (or split) on a true count greater than or equal to the index value. It does NOT say anything about just hitting.
It does not make any distinction about soft or hard hands. I assume that none of the Illustrious 18 applies to soft hands.
I am not sure why anything in Blackjack should be "obvious" especially when you are trying to learn something. Why not go the extra small step and avoid confusion?
it really does say "otherwise hit" .......
just change your last 5 column to stand instead of double will do.
yes its hard hand, only double Ace can be soft 12,
maybe after few weeks of play in casino, u will reply to this tread saying,
omg , its really obvious not to double a hard 12 or Ace pair against a 5 when tc is +10. joking.. actually its not so obvious in 13 vs 2 and 13 vs 3 in ILL18, some might be confuse its double a soft 13 vs 2.
November 16th, 2011 at 9:33:51 PM
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Now I am even more confused. Ibeatyouraces (above) says it should be "hit". You are saying "stand". Basic strategy would be to "stand".
I would think you follow basic strategy until the count equals or exceeds the index number and then you make a change. Therefore I think Ibeatyouraces is correct.
Which one is it?
I would think you follow basic strategy until the count equals or exceeds the index number and then you make a change. Therefore I think Ibeatyouraces is correct.
Which one is it?
November 16th, 2011 at 10:27:57 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 17th, 2011 at 6:35:17 AM
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Apparently index numbers 14 thru 18. See my original post.
November 17th, 2011 at 6:44:14 AM
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Quote: paisielloNow I am even more confused. Ibeatyouraces (above) says it should be "hit". You are saying "stand". Basic strategy would be to "stand".
I would think you follow basic strategy until the count equals or exceeds the index number and then you make a change. Therefore I think Ibeatyouraces is correct.
Which one is it?
gosh.... try to read again, it says u should split/double/stand if count equal or greater, otherwise hit....
or if u want to rephrase, should be, hit if count is lesser, otherwise split/double/stand.
go ahead and hit a 12 vs 5 when tc is +50(as u said, exceeds the index number, u make change), maybe u max bet when tc is+50 and u burst 10 times in a row then u realise omg i should hit only when tc is -3 and below. joking XD
its fine, a forum is meant for us to ask question and discuss, i think.
November 17th, 2011 at 7:26:51 AM
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Quote: SafeGaminggosh.... try to read again, it says u should split/double/stand if count equal or greater, otherwise hit....
or if u want to rephrase, should be, hit if count is lesser, otherwise split/double/stand.
go ahead and hit a 12 vs 5 when tc is +50(as u said, exceeds the index number, u make change), maybe u max bet when tc is+50 and u burst 10 times in a row then u realise omg i should hit only when tc is -3 and below. joking XD
its fine, a forum is meant for us to ask question and discuss, i think.
What count do you use?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
November 17th, 2011 at 7:41:02 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 17th, 2011 at 9:49:14 AM
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OK what you say makes sense.
I still feel that it confusing though. For the first 13 index numbers, you follow basic strategy until the count reaches or exceeds the index number and then you deviate from it. The last five index numbers you deviate from basic strategy until the count reaches or exceeds the index number at which point you follow basic strategy.
I still feel that it confusing though. For the first 13 index numbers, you follow basic strategy until the count reaches or exceeds the index number and then you deviate from it. The last five index numbers you deviate from basic strategy until the count reaches or exceeds the index number at which point you follow basic strategy.
November 17th, 2011 at 9:50:54 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesYou would HIT those hands when the TC is equal to or LESS than the index number. You NEVER double a hard hand no matter the count.
I agree but that is not exactly what you said the first time. Therefore my confusion.
November 17th, 2011 at 2:11:03 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 17th, 2011 at 2:33:06 PM
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OK, but can you understand why putting it that way without explanation would potentially confuse someone?
I appreciate you taking the time to respond anyway.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond anyway.
November 17th, 2011 at 6:45:54 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesIn my reply, I meant that those 4 indices should say hit and not double.
very confusing, should say stand instead of hit...
November 17th, 2011 at 6:59:19 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 23rd, 2011 at 8:14:12 PM
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And what do you do when the count goes higher? Say +1?
November 24th, 2011 at 8:28:25 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 24th, 2011 at 12:41:38 PM
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OK, what you are saying makes sense and I follow your logic. But then if the instruction for the I18 reads as follows:
"The player should stand/double/split if the True Count equals or exceeds the Index Number, otherwise hit."
Then I think the index numbers 14 thru 18 should say "STAND" since you yourself are "saying the more likely you stand on stiffs".
"The player should stand/double/split if the True Count equals or exceeds the Index Number, otherwise hit."
Then I think the index numbers 14 thru 18 should say "STAND" since you yourself are "saying the more likely you stand on stiffs".
November 24th, 2011 at 12:48:30 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
November 26th, 2011 at 9:46:09 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesCorrect and I see where the confusion was. But you HIT those hands when the index is LESS THAN the number indicated.
Yes and LESS THAN way of thinking about is probably easier to remember now that I think about it.
June 30th, 2013 at 4:07:06 PM
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| Order | Play | Index Number |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Take Insurance | +3 |
| 2 | Stand 16 Vs. 10 | +0 |
| 3 | Stand 15 Vs. 10 | +4 |
| 4 | Split 10,10 Vs. 5 | +5 |
| 5 | Split 10,10 Vs. 6 | +4 |
| 6 | Double 10 Vs. 10 | +4 |
| 7 | Stand 12 Vs. 3 | +2 |
| 8 | Stand 12 Vs. 2 | +3 |
| 9 | Double 11 Vs. A | +1 |
| 10 | Double 9 Vs. 2 | +1 |
| 11 | Double 10 Vs. A | +4 |
| 12 | Double 9 Vs. 7 | +3 |
| 13 | Stand 16 Vs. 9 | +5 |
| 14 | Hit 13 Vs. 2 | -1 |
| 15 | Hit 12 Vs. 4 | +0 |
| 16 | Hit 12 Vs. 5 | -2 |
| 17 | Hit 12 Vs. 6 | -1 |
| 18 | Hit 13 Vs. 3 | -2 |
| Order | Play | True Count |
|---|---|---|
| 16 | Hit 12 Vs. 5 | -2 |
| 18 | Hit 13 Vs. 3 | -2 |
| 14 | Hit 13 Vs. 2 | -1 |
| 17 | Hit 12 Vs. 6 | -1 |
| 2 | Stand 16 Vs. 10 | +0 |
| 15 | Hit 12 Vs. 4 | +0 |
| 9 | Double 11 Vs. A | +1 |
| 10 | Double 9 Vs. 2 | +1 |
| 7 | Stand 12 Vs. 3 | +2 |
| 8 | Stand 12 Vs. 2 | +3 |
| 1 | Take Insurance | +3 |
| 12 | Double 9 Vs. 7 | +3 |
| 3 | Stand 15 Vs. 10 | +4 |
| 5 | Split 10,10 Vs. 6 | +4 |
| 6 | Double 10 Vs. 10 | +4 |
| 11 | Double 10 Vs. A | +4 |
| 4 | Split 10,10 Vs. 5 | +5 |
| 13 | Stand 16 Vs. 9 | +5 |
