What should the pit boss have done?
The dealer had 12 and of course the next card was a 9, giving him a 21. Of course we're all just saying WTF just happened? Why did you skip him?
Pit boss comes over and says the hand stands as played. She even had the gall to ask the man at 3rd base if he would like the option to split his aces now (facing the inevitable 21). I had busted out, so it didn't affect me, but I felt I needed to advocate for this timid guy. This seemed like a massive injustice...who cares that it was only $25 BJ table? The dealer made a mistake, and the player should never lose because of it. After a bit more argumentation from me, the pit boss offered to declare it a misdeal. The other players in the hand accepted.
What should she have done? The guy had split aces every time -- along with any other split-appropriate hands -- and was reaching for chips to split again. I felt that the 9 should have moved over to his ace, and the next card should have been dealt to him, before the dealer finally resolved his hand.
Almost always, a player can split aces up to four hands - and will always do so.
Clearly the player was reaching to put out another split bet, and there was verbal player notification of the situation, too.
Any player who was clearly and blantantly "run over" or "bulldozed" by the dealer, - under multiple player protests and against allowed rules - while the player clearly wanted to split again - the house should:
1. Pay the table of existing hands remaining.
2. Give the dealer a write up warning, ("back to schooling - don't do that again - wait for player response and action") and
3. Reshuffle the deck with an apology to the table.
When the player does indeed wave off, and stays, and is backed by a surviellance review, then it does go against the players as a bad break, and that cannot be protested.
But in this scenarion, 100% dealer fault.
Pay and Apologize. And reshuffle.
Quote: PaigowdanAnd reshuffle.
Why the reshuffle?
Quote: PaigowdanNo - this is wrong. Pay the table - and a casino cop/lackey I am saying this. It goes to the players.
Almost always, a player can split aces up to four hands - and will always do so.
Clearly the player was reaching to put out another split bet, and there was verbal player notification of the situation, too.
Any player who was clearly and blantantly "run over" or "bulldozed" by the dealer, - under multiple player protests and against allowed rules - while the player clearly wanted to split again - the house should:
1. Pay the table of existing hands remaining.
2. Give the dealer a write up warning, ("back to schooling - don't do that again - wait for player response and action") and
3. Reshuffle the deck with an apology to the table.
When the player does indeed wave off, and stays, and is backed by a surviellance review, then it does go against the players as a bad break, and that cannot be protested.
But in this scenarion, 100% dealer fault.
Pay and Apologize. And reshuffle.
Thanks for chiming in on this, Dan. I was dumbfounded that the pit boss was such a bitch. I've never had any problem with a pit boss paying the table on a dealer error, or otherwise erring on the side of the player. One time, at the same property, a dealer had an ace up and didn't even offer anyone insurance before looking and flipping over a blackjack. I understand that dealers may be in a hurry and "expect" people to speak up if they want insurance, but the fact that he didn't even look at anyone or hesitate pissed me off, so I raised and issue with it and the dealer "got in trouble." I felt a little bad, except he was a prick.
This dealer, on the other hand, was an experienced dealer and had made no other mistakes prior to that point. A write-up wouldn't have mattered, as he kept mentioning how he only had 17 more days until retirement. If I had been involved in the hand, I don't know how far I would have taken the issue, but I may have asked them to review tape. Is a player allowed to protest to someone above the pit boss? What recourse do we have with a stubborn or rude pit boss? I'd like to know so that I have ammo for the future.
From that point on, an argument can be made "the following cards are not what I am supposed to be getting/supposed to be dealt/etc." A valid point.
Done on every BJ game (and a pain in the as on an eight-deck shoe, unless table argrees to a burn card with floorman's okay!!)
Not done on a CSM - doesn't matter there.
When the dealer has acted on a players hand in a manner other than in the manner reasonably indicated by the players hand signal, the pit supervisor may direct the hand to be played as dealt, or may require the player to choose between the options of:
Standing and playing the hand as dealt;
Taking a push; or
Taking additional cards after all other players have acted on their hands. The decision must be made by the player before the dealers hand is exposed.
Quote: buzzpaffAnd then there is this Colorado Gaming Rule.
When the dealer has acted on a players hand in a manner other than in the manner reasonably indicated by the players hand signal, the pit supervisor may direct the hand to be played as dealt, or may require the player to choose between the options of:
Standing and playing the hand as dealt;
Taking a push; or
Taking additional cards after all other players have acted on their hands. The decision must be made by the player before the dealers hand is exposed.
In this case "...the decision must be made by the player before the dealer's hand is exposed" was an impossibility, so he would likely be left to the other options I guess?
Quote: seviay
This dealer, on the other hand, was an experienced dealer and had made no other mistakes prior to that point. A write-up wouldn't have mattered, as he kept mentioning how he only had 17 more days until retirement.
Dealers who are waiting to retire or leave, and are so burnt out from years of dealing, often have a "minimal compliance" or "screw this" attitude. What are they going to do? Fire a retire and wealthy dealer from a job that pays $7.25 plus tips? - can't scare them - they should have positive attitudes of integrity until the day hand in their badge and uniform. Some dealers get walked off upon notification to prevent this all.
Quote: seviayIf I had been involved in the hand, I don't know how far I would have taken the issue, but I may have asked them to review tape. Is a player allowed to protest to someone above the pit boss? What recourse do we have with a stubborn or rude pit boss? I'd like to know so that I have ammo for the future.
Contact the Gaming Commission/Gaming Control Board of the jursdiction of that casino. (Nevada Gaming, Missouri Gaming, Washington State Gamblers' Commission, etc. - all google-able on the Internet.
In a letter/email, you write up a detailed account of ALL events accurately - as a statement - be truthful! - so that it matches up and lines up with the surveillance tape account of that table's session. Surveillance WILL have to have that video tape upon demand for the Gaming commission, or the house will be heavily fined (as in "heads will roll") and known players playing on player cards will be comped, re-imbursed, and apologized to. Few actually do this!
Standing and playing the hand as dealt;
Taking a push; or
Taking additional cards after all other players have acted on their hands. The decision must be made by the player before the dealers hand is exposed.
Quote: seviay
Pit boss comes over and says the hand stands as played. She even had the gall to ask the man at 3rd base if he would like the option to split his aces now (facing the inevitable 21). I had busted out, so it didn't affect me, but I felt I needed to advocate for this timid guy. This seemed like a massive injustice...who cares that it was only $25 BJ table? The dealer made a mistake, and the player should never lose because of it. After a bit more argumentation from me, the pit boss offered to declare it a misdeal. The other players in the hand accepted.
What should she have done? The guy had split aces every time -- along with any other split-appropriate hands -- and was reaching for chips to split again. I felt that the 9 should have moved over to his ace, and the next card should have been dealt to him, before the dealer finally resolved his hand.
I'm assuming because the pit boss did offer the re-split after the fact that Resplitting of Aces is allowed... In the Midwest, most casinos do NOT offer RSA (Missouri and some Illinois casinos being the lone exceptions). In those casinos, the scenario you just said would have happened. Obviously, the dealer was trained and this wouldn't have been the issue, but I could see a new dealer coming out from the Midwest making that mistake. Some of them go so fast on split aces you barely have time to react.
Quote: PaigowdanDealers who are waiting to retire or leave, and are so burnt out from years of dealing, often have a "minimal compliance" or "screw this" attitude. What are they going to do? Fire a retire and wealthy dealer from a job that pays $7.25 plus tips? - can't scare them - they should have positive attitudes of integrity until the day hand in their badge and uniform. Some dealers get walked off upon notification to prevent this all.
Contact the Gaming Commission/Gaming Control Board of the jursdiction of that casino. (Nevada Gaming, Missouri Gaming, Washington State Gamblers' Commission, etc. - all google-able on the Internet.
In a letter/email, you write up a detailed account of ALL events accuractly - as a statement - be truthful! - so that it matches up and lines up with the surveillance tape account of that table's session. Surveillance WILL have to have that video tape upon demand for the Gaming commission, or the house will be heavily fined (as in "heads will roll") and known players playing on player cards will be comped, re-imbursed, andf apologized to. Few actually do this!
Makes sense on all points. So, should this happen to me in the future, I should note time, date, dealer, pit boss, number of players, how the hand played out, what the protests and discussions were before/after the misdeal, etc., correct? Since I lost the hand prior to the mistake, I don't have a dog in the fight so to speak, but since I play a lot of blackjack in Vegas, I want to make sure I am ready to take a stand.
Thank you once again, Dan. Cheers!
You have no idea how painful it is for me to admit it.
OUCH !!!!
Quote: buzzpaffYes and the other options are the same. Player never gets being paid as an option GRRR.
Players have huge recourses, if the casino is actually wrong. I detailed how you fight back myself.
They [GOOD players] just don't KNOW this and how to act on this.
I am equally for punishing dirtbags against the casino side as I am against the players' side. I see an "variable ratio" - for lack of a better description - but I am against ALL nasty crap being pulled.
Quote: TiltpoulI'm assuming because the pit boss did offer the re-split after the fact that Resplitting of Aces is allowed...
Yes, RSA up to 4x. Lack of training, lack of sleep, learning under different rules, marital problems, etc., aren't valid excuses to me. And nonchalance by pit bosses only exacerbates the problem. This all rubbed me badly enough that I am considering giving other casinos my business for a while...
Quote: TiltpoulI'm assuming because the pit boss did offer the re-split after the fact that Resplitting of Aces is allowed... In the Midwest, most casinos do NOT offer RSA (Missouri and some Illinois casinos being the lone exceptions). In those casinos, the scenario you just said would have happened. Obviously, the dealer was trained and this wouldn't have been the issue, but I could see a new dealer coming out from the Midwest making that mistake. Some of them go so fast on split aces you barely have time to react.
if that's the case, the casino dealer was just needlessly rude by not explaining the RSA rule before going forward.
Again - attitude.
Again - Dealers should know the rules of the tables that they are dealing! And explain them - announce then - as a courtesy
You'd need a copy of the BJ table's rules to really make a call on this.
Quote: Paigowdanif that's the case, the casino dealer was just needlessly rude by not explaining the RSA rule before going forward.
Again - attitude.
You'd need a copy of the BJ table's rules to really make a call on this.
Yeah I got that from the post... just wanted to make sure. There is no excuse for the rudeness and how everything else played out. I can understand how the mistake COULD have been made, under different circumstances
Quote: seviayDan, I think we crossed paths on posting. Re-split was allowed up to 4x, because that actually happened at the table and we asked for clarity. If additional re-splits weren't allowed, I wouldn't have even raised a fuss about how this hand played out.
If that was the rule:
1. Dealer is wrong. AND
2. Dealer had a very bad attitude about it all. Unacceptable! Doesn't matter if he's three minutes from retiring to Hawaii! Leave with grace, and not discgrace!
3. It's Gaming-reportable.
4. It's Casino house report-able.
5. Notify casino and or Gaming.
6. Get an Apology and a decent comp.
7. And you help fix the problem by putting people on notice.
Help solve a problem that is both a thorne is gamblers' feet and in casino's feet.
MAKE this industry a little better because you took positive action.
Quote: buzzpaffI know you have better things to do probably, but Dan is right. Failing to do so, you encourage rudeness. You have my thanks ( whatever that's worth ) if you follow up!
The big problem I have is that I played 5 long sessions, and I'm not entirely sure I could get the names/times correct. I feel I might be dismissed if I said "I played blackjack some time on Saturday evening, between 11pm and 5am, and the following happened..."
How much detail do I need to be able to make the proper point? I will gladly write to the casino as a starting point, and I will happily follow up with the gaming commission if need be. I had one friend at the table with me, but unfortunately, we did not know the gentleman who was at 3B.
With all of your help/blessings, I will happily write anyone you think needs to know.
I have always found them to appreciate the feedback and compensate me.
I also fill out comment cards for good service. Usually ask that employee to read it and drop it in the box if possible
Give you full name and card number if you know it!
Quote: buzzpaffDon't worry about the details. Just write or email corporate, Give them a chance to prove you should return to their casino again.
I have always found them to appreciate the feedback and compensate me.
I also fill out comment cards for good service. Usually ask that employee to read it and drop it in the box if possible
Give you full name and card number if you know it!
OK, this isn't an attempt to flame, but it happened at the MGM Grand. What do you (Buzz/PGD) recommend as the course of action? Just write a generic email address for the property? If I'm going to get anyone's attention, I'd like for it to come off as a concerned and loyal customer, not a whiny loser. I know of a host at the property, and he actually helped me with the reservation for this trip, but I don't feel that involving him is the appropriate avenue...at least not for now. Agree?
What casino was it? Is it possible they use the no replitting aces rule?
Quote: Wizard's Blackjack pageSplitting after splitting is allowed; however, resplitting aces is often an exception.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI didn't read the entire thread, but in the original post, there was no mention of the re-splitting aces rule.
What casino was it? Is it possible they use the no replitting aces rule?
MGM Grand ... 4x max re-split, as I understood it.
It seems unlikely that the MGM Grand would allow re-splitting aces.
If I remember, I'll stop by there next week to ask.
House Rules:
Single: No surrender, 1 card on Ace
Double: No soft 17, Split Aces 4 hands
I would indeed involve the host. Even if it is something that he can't do anything about his input is valued as to your history with the casino. If it involves your relationship to the casino, it should involve the host. Even if it wasn't your hand, if its pissed you off, get the host aware of it.Quote: seviayI know of a host at the property, and he actually helped me with the reservation for this trip, but I don't feel that involving him is the appropriate avenue...at least not for now. Agree?
If you were pissed off enough to bang out a few posts then you were pissed off enough to let the host know what happened and why you are pissed off.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThat didn't answer the question.
It seems unlikely that the MGM Grand would allow re-splitting aces.
If I remember, I'll stop by there next week to ask.
DJ, how did that not answer the question?
DJT: Where was it? Do they allow re-splitting of aces?
Sev: MGM Grand, yes they allow re-splitting up to 4 hands.
If you're asking about re-splitting aces, I'm not going to give their rules for re-splitting 8s...
Quote: FleaStiffI would indeed involve the host. Even if it is something that he can't do anything about his input is valued as to your history with the casino. If it involves your relationship to the casino, it should involve the host. Even if it wasn't your hand, if its pissed you off, get the host aware of it.
If you were pissed off enough to bang out a few posts then you were pissed off enough to let the host know what happened and why you are pissed off.
Okay, will do...I'll let you all know what, if anything, happens as a result. Thanks!
Quote: seviayThe big problem I have is that I played 5 long sessions, and I'm not entirely sure I could get the names/times correct. I feel I might be dismissed if I said "I played blackjack some time on Saturday evening, between 11pm and 5am, and the following happened..."
How much detail do I need to be able to make the proper point? I will gladly write to the casino as a starting point, and I will happily follow up with the gaming commission if need be. I had one friend at the table with me, but unfortunately, we did not know the gentleman who was at 3B.
With all of your help/blessings, I will happily write anyone you think needs to know.
I wish you the best of luck on your complaint. It sounds like maybe you will talk to a host and let them know about the problem.
In the future, you may want to call the shift manager over. I did that one time, explaining away from the table that I would not play at the casino again if the problem wasn't solved. He took care of it, and gave me a comp for the trouble. (FYI, it was a similar situation, the dealer gave the player a card when they clearly waved it off, the pit boss told the dealer to burn the card, and the resulting hand left me with a loss when I should have had a push. Everybody else lost either way. The pit boss said no dice on mine, and when I threatened to leave, he gave me the "Who cares?" speech.)
I have one fear for you now that this is WELL after the fact. 1) You'll be branded a troublemaker. There are places in your account history that can flag pit personnel to watch you carefully. If you're a card counter, or even close to it, it may not be in your best interest to get extra, unwanted attention. If you have no intention of playing at MGM Grand again, then make sure you state that... but then you can NEVER play at ANY of those properties again. Otherwise, just leave that part out of it... I saw in an earlier post where you said you might not play there again... empty threats get NOWHERE, and probably leave you with less...
As for being a card counter, I am definitely not that. I simply play for fun/recreation/escape and attempt to make the proper plays to reduce house advantage as much as possible. I can't imagine anyone flagging me for questionable behavior, because I rarely vary my bets by more than 2x, and I am always polite to dealers and pit bosses, not to mention that I tip waitresses and dealers generously/appropriately depending on your perspective.
Anyways, I am always reluctant to write letters like this, because I don't want to come off as a whiner, nor as someone who is looking for some freebies. Truthfully, I don't think I would have written them except for the "encouragement" from Buzz and Dan.
I have e-mailed the host, and I am about to e-mail the customer service address. Updates to come.
A mighty poor host if he doesn't thank you for bringing it to his attention. From your description of events, you are not the only victim.
<<<
Honestly, the best thing to do is fill out a survey online about the experience and or contact the Gaming Commission.
I have no control over the operations portion of the casino. While few, there are stories like this that Ive heard over the years. While I apologize for the experience, there is not a lot I can do about the situation.
>>>
IMO, this is not your battle. Dealers make mistakes as does the pit. This is not worth your time. All casino dealers and pits make mistakes. Your choices are to not play at that casino (probably a wise choice) or to live with it.
But honestly, what would you have done if the dealer with the 12 pulled a 10? Would you have complained to the pit then?
Quote: boymimboWhile the pit boss was wrong, she did declare it a misdeal and there was no financial liability for the other players. You were not the player affected. Another player was. The pit boss should have elected to deal the 9 as the next split ace and move the hands back or declare the entire hand a misdeal. I don't think the answer would be to declare that all players win!
IMO, this is not your battle. Dealers make mistakes as does the pit. This is not worth your time. All casino dealers and pits make mistakes. Your choices are to not play at that casino (probably a wise choice) or to live with it.
But honestly, what would you have done if the dealer with the 12 pulled a 10? Would you have complained to the pit then?
I stand by my assertion that a player should never suffer on account of a dealer mistake. Had the dealer pulled a 10, I still would have been annoyed with his mistake, but everyone makes mistakes. The part that rubbed me wrong was the smug attitude of the pit boss. As far as the part about me being unaffected, the misdeal threw off the entire order of the shoe (whether for better or worse). Regardless, as I stated previously, I would not even bother alerting the casino except for the "encouragement" by Buzz and Dan.
