Poll

1 vote (4%)
3 votes (12%)
21 votes (84%)

25 members have voted

Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
Joined: May 5, 2010
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September 15th, 2011 at 4:16:45 PM permalink
What the heck...

Apparently, any knowledge in your head that may allow you to make a more informed decision about what to bet COULD cause casinos to back you off from playing, since you are probably counting... THE COUNTING FORUM IS ALREADY GOING SO DO NOT BRING THIS UP IN THIS FORUM PLEASE!!

Under that logic, if Blackjack was originally designed to be played as a game of strictly chance (like Roulette, TCP, and Craps), then basic strategy put a kink into that system. A game that would have originally had some sort of higher house edge lost its edge to basic strategy.

Stay with me folks... since this strategy is KNOWLEDGE about a game that gives the player an edge, IS PLAYING BASIC STRATEGY (appropriate to the game you are playing) CHEATING?

My response to follow...
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 4:20:26 PM permalink
Okay, of course it's not cheating... The gift shops sell basic strategy cards (albeit not to rules that the house has necessarily set up). The dealers often times know basic strategy, and casinos teach rules (again, simplified).

However, if counting were considered cheating because it gives the player an edge (NOT GOING OFF TOPIC), then the same rule applies to playing basic strategy perfectly. You have a slight edge over another player, and the game was not originally designed to fit under those rules. BS was developed long after BJ was in the casinos. It's accepted now, but casinos don't like players using perfect BS all the time... they make less money on it...

So, theoretically, a casino could back off a basic strategy player. It wouldn't be in their best interest, but under the logic presented in another forum, it could happen.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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September 15th, 2011 at 4:30:58 PM permalink
1) With baccarat being the major exception, most card games have multiple play strategy options. Hit/stand, raise/fold, which cards to set in Pai Gow poker, which cards to hold in VP, etc.
2) Playing different strategies impacts the probability of winning a given hand. For example, in blackjack, always hitting until you bust will decrease the probability of winning compared to proper basic strategy. Similarly, in video poker, always holding the leftmost card will lead to a lower probability of winning than proper strategy.
3) NRS 465.015 defines "cheat" as altering the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine the amount or frequency of payment in a game (among other things).
4) If you interpret "altering the criteria which determine the frequency of payment in a game" to include making strategic choices in a card-based game, then the logical conclusion is that playing any card game with a strategy is illegal in Nevada.
5) That conclusion doesn't comport with the interpretation of the statutes or the behavior of every gaming operator or regulator in the state, so I submit it is in error. In the alternate interpretation that playing a strategy in a card game is not to be interpreted as "altering the criteria", then playing strategy-based card games in Nevada is permitted, regardless of the strategy used. That's why card counting is not illegal.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:03:13 PM permalink
Playing using perfect basic strategy does not give you an edge.
"What, me worry?"
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
Joined: May 5, 2010
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:07:17 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Playing using perfect basic strategy does not give you an edge.



It absolutely gives you an edge... it doesn't make the game a player advantage game, but counting cards barely does that. But compared to doing whatever, Basic Strategy does give the player an edge.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:13:07 PM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

So, theoretically, a casino could back off a basic strategy player. It wouldn't be in their best interest, but ....

Yeah, theoretically, a casino could back-off / bar a basic strategy player.

But why? Even a player who never makes a mistake will still fall victim to the house edge.

Additionally, the bad press a casino would get would make it an undesirable decision.

After all, to some degree, all players strive to be better, with the goal of eventually playing perfectly.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
Joined: May 5, 2010
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:17:03 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


After all, to some degree, all players strive to be better, with the goal of eventually playing perfectly.



LoL... no they don't... I've seen a LOT of casual players who get mad when people criticize their choices. They play for "fun" not to get better or anything else. THOSE are the players the casinos want, not some strategy player who knows when to double down and when to hit... those BS players (in both meanings of the acronym) are problematic to the casino.

Think about it... that's why casinos can put in 6:5 BJ. They want to make more money. If Basic Strategy had never been invented, then the game would have had a much higher edge, and 6:5 would not exist. Heck, we might have seen the old 12:1 on A-J of spades on single deck games only!
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
Joined: May 10, 2011
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September 15th, 2011 at 6:13:39 PM permalink
It's only cheating if you begin to win.
I heart Crystal Math.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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September 15th, 2011 at 6:23:03 PM permalink
First I'm thinking "now you're getting ridiculous" but later I started wondering if you have PaigowDan and his ilk thinking that you are on to something. [g]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: 典hanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
Joined: May 5, 2010
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September 15th, 2011 at 6:33:51 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

First I'm thinking "now you're getting ridiculous" but later I started wondering if you have PaigowDan and his ilk thinking that you are on to something. [g]



Of course I'm being ridiculous... but where do we draw the line? When the PLAYER has the advantage (i.e. counts are high), if we raise our bet, then we are cheating... But if casinos really wanted to make more money, they would change all games to 6:5... that beats out all problems with counting AND basic strategy players.

So if basic strategy players gain 2% more against the house, it stands to reason that the house COULD back off a basic strategy player. OBVIOUSLY, they could back off the player, b/c they can do what they want. But a pit supervisor REALLY sweating the money could ask a basic strategy player to go to a 6:5 game or not play at the casino.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park

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