Poll

1 vote (4%)
3 votes (12%)
21 votes (84%)

25 members have voted

Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 4:16:45 PM permalink
What the heck...

Apparently, any knowledge in your head that may allow you to make a more informed decision about what to bet COULD cause casinos to back you off from playing, since you are probably counting... THE COUNTING FORUM IS ALREADY GOING SO DO NOT BRING THIS UP IN THIS FORUM PLEASE!!

Under that logic, if Blackjack was originally designed to be played as a game of strictly chance (like Roulette, TCP, and Craps), then basic strategy put a kink into that system. A game that would have originally had some sort of higher house edge lost its edge to basic strategy.

Stay with me folks... since this strategy is KNOWLEDGE about a game that gives the player an edge, IS PLAYING BASIC STRATEGY (appropriate to the game you are playing) CHEATING?

My response to follow...
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 4:20:26 PM permalink
Okay, of course it's not cheating... The gift shops sell basic strategy cards (albeit not to rules that the house has necessarily set up). The dealers often times know basic strategy, and casinos teach rules (again, simplified).

However, if counting were considered cheating because it gives the player an edge (NOT GOING OFF TOPIC), then the same rule applies to playing basic strategy perfectly. You have a slight edge over another player, and the game was not originally designed to fit under those rules. BS was developed long after BJ was in the casinos. It's accepted now, but casinos don't like players using perfect BS all the time... they make less money on it...

So, theoretically, a casino could back off a basic strategy player. It wouldn't be in their best interest, but under the logic presented in another forum, it could happen.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
MathExtremist
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September 15th, 2011 at 4:30:58 PM permalink
1) With baccarat being the major exception, most card games have multiple play strategy options. Hit/stand, raise/fold, which cards to set in Pai Gow poker, which cards to hold in VP, etc.
2) Playing different strategies impacts the probability of winning a given hand. For example, in blackjack, always hitting until you bust will decrease the probability of winning compared to proper basic strategy. Similarly, in video poker, always holding the leftmost card will lead to a lower probability of winning than proper strategy.
3) NRS 465.015 defines "cheat" as altering the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine the amount or frequency of payment in a game (among other things).
4) If you interpret "altering the criteria which determine the frequency of payment in a game" to include making strategic choices in a card-based game, then the logical conclusion is that playing any card game with a strategy is illegal in Nevada.
5) That conclusion doesn't comport with the interpretation of the statutes or the behavior of every gaming operator or regulator in the state, so I submit it is in error. In the alternate interpretation that playing a strategy in a card game is not to be interpreted as "altering the criteria", then playing strategy-based card games in Nevada is permitted, regardless of the strategy used. That's why card counting is not illegal.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MrV
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:03:13 PM permalink
Playing using perfect basic strategy does not give you an edge.
"What, me worry?"
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:07:17 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Playing using perfect basic strategy does not give you an edge.



It absolutely gives you an edge... it doesn't make the game a player advantage game, but counting cards barely does that. But compared to doing whatever, Basic Strategy does give the player an edge.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
DJTeddyBear
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:13:07 PM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

So, theoretically, a casino could back off a basic strategy player. It wouldn't be in their best interest, but ....

Yeah, theoretically, a casino could back-off / bar a basic strategy player.

But why? Even a player who never makes a mistake will still fall victim to the house edge.

Additionally, the bad press a casino would get would make it an undesirable decision.

After all, to some degree, all players strive to be better, with the goal of eventually playing perfectly.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 5:17:03 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


After all, to some degree, all players strive to be better, with the goal of eventually playing perfectly.



LoL... no they don't... I've seen a LOT of casual players who get mad when people criticize their choices. They play for "fun" not to get better or anything else. THOSE are the players the casinos want, not some strategy player who knows when to double down and when to hit... those BS players (in both meanings of the acronym) are problematic to the casino.

Think about it... that's why casinos can put in 6:5 BJ. They want to make more money. If Basic Strategy had never been invented, then the game would have had a much higher edge, and 6:5 would not exist. Heck, we might have seen the old 12:1 on A-J of spades on single deck games only!
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
CrystalMath
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September 15th, 2011 at 6:13:39 PM permalink
It's only cheating if you begin to win.
I heart Crystal Math.
odiousgambit
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September 15th, 2011 at 6:23:03 PM permalink
First I'm thinking "now you're getting ridiculous" but later I started wondering if you have PaigowDan and his ilk thinking that you are on to something. [g]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: 典hanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 6:33:51 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

First I'm thinking "now you're getting ridiculous" but later I started wondering if you have PaigowDan and his ilk thinking that you are on to something. [g]



Of course I'm being ridiculous... but where do we draw the line? When the PLAYER has the advantage (i.e. counts are high), if we raise our bet, then we are cheating... But if casinos really wanted to make more money, they would change all games to 6:5... that beats out all problems with counting AND basic strategy players.

So if basic strategy players gain 2% more against the house, it stands to reason that the house COULD back off a basic strategy player. OBVIOUSLY, they could back off the player, b/c they can do what they want. But a pit supervisor REALLY sweating the money could ask a basic strategy player to go to a 6:5 game or not play at the casino.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
buzzpaff
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:00:07 PM permalink
I have seen 6 or 7 players backed off for counting in Colorado. All while the minimum bet and maximum bet allowed was $5.
Never underestimated the stupidity of some pit bosses.
EvenBob
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:11:33 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

It's only cheating if you begin to win.



Exactly! Like we used to say when I played BJ,
the best cover is losing. They'll let you count
and lose all day long.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
DonPedro
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:20:58 PM permalink
As many of us have seen, the 6/5 tables packed and the 3/2 tables empty, when they are right next to each other

Or the H17 tables packed and the S17 tables empty

How many players actually walk through all the BJ tables and play the best game ? I would say almost none, how many know BS -almost none.

All the casinos back home are h17 shoe games, which I am trying not to play anymore !! In fact around here no one has a clue about BS ,all they care about is the side bet( might as well play slots). They will bet more on the side bet then their hand, and not even care about it .

Even the dealers play this bet, I would say I am the only 1 I see not playing it. Depending on which side bet version it is around a 4-10 % HE.

What I am getting at is, 99.9 % of the players have no concept of what a good or bad game is , which is fine. That has made many a casino !!

Who am I to tell them, they need to learn the game.

Less than 1 % of players actually know a good game vs a bad game and can at least play BS and lose less.

I am sure there are a few people that can make $$$$ at this game, I have not seen one , nor am I one ! Although I study the game and work to develop my skills, and have had many good nights at the tables , but also many bad ones. I have been playing around a year and I know I have a long ways to go !!

I somehow doubt that if a player could execute his count flawlessly, execute the I18, kelly bet, had a decent BR, play w/ good cover. He would at least play w/ a small edge or at least even w/ the casino, which to me is 100 X better than playing a game where the HE does not change or still much higher than BJ.

Why would I play a 1-5 % HE game , when I know even the worst BJ game is a better bet ?

Will I ever make this game a career, hell no !! Will I have fun playing, downing as many free drinks as I can, harrassing dealers/pits as much as I can ( all in good fun, of course ) being rowdy at the table, playing a better game than 99.9 % of players, and still lose $$$, HELL YAH I WILL !!!

See you at the tables, learn the game and have fun !!!!
" If I had the money and the drinking capacity, I'd probably live at a blackjak table and let my life go to hell." Don Pedro
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:24:51 PM permalink
My last visit to Blackhawk, I saw 6-5 packed with DD 3-2 on either side of it. That why a game inventor should not base his decision to proceed with a game solely based on the usual posters on this forum. Doubt any of them has ever played a single hand of 6-5 BJ.
Any Dissenters ?
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:30:05 PM permalink
Quote: DonPedro

All the casinos back home are h17 shoe games, which I am trying not to play anymore !! In fact around here no one has a clue about BS ,all they care about is the side bet( might as well play slots). They will bet more on the side bet then their hand, and not even care about it .

Even the dealers play this bet, I would say I am the only 1 I see not playing it. Depending on which side bet version it is around a 4-10 % HE.



So, under the logic presented, would it not be in the casino's best interest to back off a player who is playing basic strategy? You are taking up a seat at a <1% house edge, while the players around you are easily playing at a 4+% HE. Eventually, the casinos could say those who are playing basic strategy are cheating... especially ones who are playing perfect basic strategy, as they are not likely to make those high house edge side bets.

Under the "House Rules" logic (and Nevada statute), the casinos COULD argue the player is cheating, and thus back them off...
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
EvenBob
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:32:21 PM permalink
I've said before I got kicked out of the Klondike
in 2006 for using BS. I won about $300 in half
an hour and they asked me to leave the casino.
Its winners they hate, not counters or system
players.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
DonPedro
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:35:46 PM permalink
Actually I have, I did not even know it was 6/5 , played 1 hand and left !! kind of sneaky, no sign, and I was drinking of course .

My 1 hand , 400 bet, get 2 8 's vs 4 , split, get another 8, split. Catch a 2 and 3, on the 1st split, double of course, end up w/ 17 , 19, and 18 , I think

Dealers busts, a 2G hand :), drunker than drunk !! tossed the dealer a few tokes and left.

Of course , I gave it back w/ my wild betting, when will I learn ??? But actually ended the weekend of debauchery (sp) even , I will take that any day !!!:)
" If I had the money and the drinking capacity, I'd probably live at a blackjak table and let my life go to hell." Don Pedro
buzzpaff
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:38:00 PM permalink
Perhaps I should have said SOBER poster. LOL
DonPedro
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September 15th, 2011 at 7:52:48 PM permalink
:) you are a very informed poster, I appreciate your insight !!
" If I had the money and the drinking capacity, I'd probably live at a blackjak table and let my life go to hell." Don Pedro
pacomartin
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September 15th, 2011 at 8:01:55 PM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

Think about it... that's why casinos can put in 6:5 BJ. They want to make more money. If Basic Strategy had never been invented, then the game would have had a much higher edge, and 6:5 would not exist.



I must question this assumption. As casino games go, blackjack was always a pretty low house edge game. Even people who have never read a basic strategy card often figure out the most basic assumptions: For hard hands - Hit when dealer stiff and player stiff, don't hit when player pat, double on 10's and 11's except against high cards, and double if you would only take one card.

This approximation to basic strategy still leaves a fairly low house edge.

I don't think casino management was sweating the basic strategy players. They simply view blackjack as a low margin game, and they wanted to make it higher. Considering the massive drop in blackjack revenue, I think they screwed up.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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September 15th, 2011 at 8:15:12 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I must question this assumption. As casino games go, blackjack was always a pretty low house edge game. Even people who have never read a basic strategy card often figure out the most basic assumptions: For hard hands - Hit when dealer stiff and player stiff, don't hit when player pat, double on 10's and 11's except against high cards, and double if you would only take one card.



To you, me and everybody on this forum, these are foregone conclusions. But I don't think the average player sees it that way... I should say, the average tourist casino player who only knows Blackjack is a "beatable" game. It's easy for us to say that people always played the game that way before basic strategy, but what seems obvious to us now would not necessarily have been obvious back then.

My grandma loved blackjack... she taught me how to play when I was three years old, and taught me, what I thought at the time, were the correct basic strategy moves. While generally she was right, she was SOO wrong about so many moves, what seemed logical at the time turned out to be incorrect.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
buzzpaff
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September 15th, 2011 at 9:18:24 PM permalink
Everybody sort of knows Basic Strategy now. But only thanks to Ed Thorpe. John scarne was a reputed expert on gambling but his
strategy for BJ was a mess.
MrV
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September 15th, 2011 at 9:21:15 PM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

It absolutely gives you an edge... it doesn't make the game a player advantage game, but counting cards barely does that. But compared to doing whatever, Basic Strategy does give the player an edge.



Semantics.

Playing pass line with odds gives a better "edge" than betting Big Red.

I was referring to gaining the advantage, or "edge" over the house.

Sure, basic strategy is better than playing blind, but the house still has the edge over the player.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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September 15th, 2011 at 9:24:11 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Everybody sort of knows Basic Strategy now. But only thanks to Ed Thorpe.



Thorpe was just in the right place at the right time.
He didn't invent counting, far from it. He was just
one of the few people in the country who had access
to a mainframe computer and was interested in
gambling. All he did was prove counting works with
the computer and he came up with a workable card
counting system. Big deal, it didn't take a genius to
do that. His giant inflated ego forced him to write a
book about it, he was too frightened to make a million
off it first before he opened his big mouth.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
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September 16th, 2011 at 1:30:33 AM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

since this strategy is KNOWLEDGE about a game that gives the player an edge ...

Gives the player an edge as compared to the other more ignorant players, but he is not playing against those other players, he is playing against the house and even with absolutely perfect Basic Strategy, he still has no edge against the house.

A player who is a homosexual and therefore immune to the distractions of a beautiful woman in a low cut dress has something in his head that sets him apart from the other men playing Blackjack but he is not cheating the house by sitting there trying to beat the dealer.

A woman who can consume an endless variety of drinks and remain stone cold sober is not cheating just because she plays blackjack in a casino that provides her with free drinks so as to alter her betting habits.
weaselman
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September 16th, 2011 at 6:45:24 AM permalink
I think, by Dan's logic, playing basic strategy is definitely cheating - the casino, obviously, does not want you to do that, they'd prefer you play badly and lose more, and his definition of "cheating" is doing something the casino does not want you to do. Ergo, basic strategy is cheating. And so is not not betting on sucker side bets.

And yes, you absolutely can be backroomed or backed off for doing this ... or for any other reason (apparently, not in NJ any more, which is nice, but, as Dan put it earlier, Vegas is not NJ).
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
buzzpaff
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September 16th, 2011 at 7:57:29 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Thorpe was just in the right place at the right time.
He didn't invent counting, far from it. He was just
one of the few people in the country who had access
to a mainframe computer and was interested in
gambling. All he did was prove counting works with
the computer and he came up with a workable card
counting system. Big deal, it didn't take a genius to
do that. His giant inflated ego forced him to write a
book about it, he was too frightened to make a million
off it first before he opened his big mouth.



Is there any particular reason you despise Ed Thorpe ? I did not like his paranoia about being cheated by dealers. But he did write a great book and never proclaimed to be a genius. Give the man his due. His book and explanation of basic strategy turned the tables on casinos. After it came out, many casinos restricted doubling, splitting etc. Only when total revenue including slots tumbled did the casinos back off.
Gee. all Ed did was write a book.
dm
dm
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September 16th, 2011 at 8:53:47 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman

I think, by Dan's logic, playing basic strategy is definitely cheating - the casino, obviously, does not want you to do that, they'd prefer you play badly and lose more, and his definition of "cheating" is doing something the casino does not want you to do. Ergo, basic strategy is cheating. And so is not not betting on sucker side bets.

And yes, you absolutely can be backroomed or backed off for doing this ... or for any other reason (apparently, not in NJ any more, which is nice, but, as Dan put it earlier, Vegas is not NJ).




They probably don't care for you to release loud farts, either. So does that make the gas release cheating? Basic strategy does NOT
rely on changing deck composition.
thecesspit
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September 16th, 2011 at 9:22:57 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

All he did was prove counting works with
the computer and he came up with a workable card
counting system. Big deal, it didn't take a genius to
do that.



90% of genius is doing something no-one else has done, instead of sitting around afterwards going "damn, that was obvious, why didn't I do that!".
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
buzzpaff
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September 16th, 2011 at 9:35:41 AM permalink
AMEN !!!!
weaselman
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September 16th, 2011 at 11:10:07 AM permalink
Quote: dm

They probably don't care for you to release loud farts, either. So does that make the gas release cheating?



By Dan's definition, absolutely!

Quote:

Basic strategy does NOT rely on changing deck composition.


So what? Who said something has to rely on changing deck composition to be cheating? Holecarding does not rely on it either. Card counting in turn does not alter the game probabilities ...
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
EvenBob
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September 16th, 2011 at 3:41:44 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

Is there any particular reason you despise Ed Thorpe ? His book and explanation of basic strategy turned the tables on casinos.



He never tried to make any money from it.
He just wanted recognition from the math
community. Many of the card counters at the
time begged him not to write the book and
ruin the game for them. But Thorp's ego just
couldn't stand it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
avargov
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September 16th, 2011 at 3:50:36 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

He never tried to make any money from it.
He just wanted recognition from the math
community. Many of the card counters at the
time begged him not to write the book and
ruin the game for them. But Thorp's ego just
couldn't stand it.



Where do you get this shit Bob?
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
EvenBob
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September 16th, 2011 at 4:03:27 PM permalink
Quote: avargov

Where do you get this shit Bob?



Shit? Its fact, look it up. Thorp didn't invent
card counting, he heard about it and set out
to prove the math behind it. Players had been
counting in Europe for decades, and they were
in Vegas in small numbers and Thorp interviewed
some of them for his book and they begged him
not to write it. Again, look it up.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
avargov
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September 16th, 2011 at 4:13:28 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Shit? Its fact, look it up. Thorp didn't invent
card counting, he heard about it and set out
to prove the math behind it. Players had been
counting in Europe for decades, and they were
in Vegas in small numbers and Thorp interviewed
some of them for his book and they begged him
not to write it. Again, look it up.



Perhaps you could post some links. I spent about 5 minutes or so looking, and all I could find was praise for Thorpe. Even that he is in the Blackjack HOF. Not to mention praise that all counters basically owe the trade to Thorpe.

So again I ask, where do you get this shit Bob? Of course I am completely disinterested in counting or blackjack, so I really don't give a fuck, but I do wonder how someone can have such insight on so many subjects? I thought MKL left a few months ago,guess thats why you didn't like him, he stole your thunder.
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes." ~ William Gibson
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