New game at Binions..... Burn blackjack
August 2nd, 2011 at 9:45:59 PM
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There is a new blackjack game at Binion's, called burn blackjack
It is played out of an eight deck shoe, automatic, not continuous shuffler. For what it's worth, it seemed to be two decks cut.
The rules are: If the dealer has a 10 up, he first checks for blackjack. If he has a suited blackjack with a 10 up, the blackjack is discarded and the rules are as below...... this seems to negate 1/8 of the dealers blackjacks.
If the dealer has a 10 up and does not have blackjack, the dealer then checks again, and if he has a hard 20, he discards those two cards, and then "all subsequent dealer hand are discarded until the dealer ends up with two cards that up not both 10 value cards or a blackjack- the hand is then played out as in the regular game"
additionally, player may elect to double on any number of cards.
A dealer total of 22 will push or remaining hands except blackjack. [Mike blackjack switch, or power blackjack]
Blackjack pays 1 1/2 to 1, you can double on any number of cards, even after splitting. One card on split aces.. I don't think you can re split aces.
Can somebody run the numbers on this game, and also the basic strategy, house advantage etc.
It is played out of an eight deck shoe, automatic, not continuous shuffler. For what it's worth, it seemed to be two decks cut.
The rules are: If the dealer has a 10 up, he first checks for blackjack. If he has a suited blackjack with a 10 up, the blackjack is discarded and the rules are as below...... this seems to negate 1/8 of the dealers blackjacks.
If the dealer has a 10 up and does not have blackjack, the dealer then checks again, and if he has a hard 20, he discards those two cards, and then "all subsequent dealer hand are discarded until the dealer ends up with two cards that up not both 10 value cards or a blackjack- the hand is then played out as in the regular game"
additionally, player may elect to double on any number of cards.
A dealer total of 22 will push or remaining hands except blackjack. [Mike blackjack switch, or power blackjack]
Blackjack pays 1 1/2 to 1, you can double on any number of cards, even after splitting. One card on split aces.. I don't think you can re split aces.
Can somebody run the numbers on this game, and also the basic strategy, house advantage etc.
August 2nd, 2011 at 10:04:11 PM
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If this game proves to be a good new game getting a lot of action, that's automatically done via the Wizardofodds.com.
I don't think somebody would spend the time and write up a math report for you on your request or demand for it, if your are not the Nevada Gaming Commission who needs it, even to post it at this site for our enjoyment and interest. Gaming mathematicians generally charge a worthy fee for their efforts to produce or to see their reports, and they are generally not released until a game is very thoroughly established after a field trial, and Mike Shackleford deems it worthy to be released on his gaming math site. We assume that such a report was done for the Nevada Gaming commission - for the game to be approved for play in a Nevada Casino, such as Binions.
Maybe you can contact the distributor of this game, and see if they send you a free copy of this math report.
I don't think somebody would spend the time and write up a math report for you on your request or demand for it, if your are not the Nevada Gaming Commission who needs it, even to post it at this site for our enjoyment and interest. Gaming mathematicians generally charge a worthy fee for their efforts to produce or to see their reports, and they are generally not released until a game is very thoroughly established after a field trial, and Mike Shackleford deems it worthy to be released on his gaming math site. We assume that such a report was done for the Nevada Gaming commission - for the game to be approved for play in a Nevada Casino, such as Binions.
Maybe you can contact the distributor of this game, and see if they send you a free copy of this math report.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 2nd, 2011 at 10:15:28 PM
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Quote: sg49
Can somebody run the numbers on this game, and also the basic strategy, house advantage etc.
Contact Switch (a member of this forum), he is the inventor of this game. Also blackjack switch, power blackjack and Neverbust Blackjack.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
August 2nd, 2011 at 10:37:45 PM
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If Geoff wants to post math online before his distributor, okay.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 3rd, 2011 at 2:37:00 AM
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I'm distributing my games in Nevada and I haven't got a problem divulging the house edge which is:-
0.80% (no resplit Aces) and 0.73% (resplit Aces allowed)
Both with 8 decks, player doubles on any number of cards, DOA, DAS
0.80% (no resplit Aces) and 0.73% (resplit Aces allowed)
Both with 8 decks, player doubles on any number of cards, DOA, DAS
August 3rd, 2011 at 6:57:04 AM
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Quote: SwitchI'm distributing my games in Nevada and I haven't got a problem divulging the house edge which is:-
0.80% (no resplit Aces) and 0.73% (resplit Aces allowed)
Both with 8 decks, player doubles on any number of cards, DOA, DAS
Seems fair - a little more fun than regular BJ, a little more expensive than regular BJ.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 3rd, 2011 at 8:59:43 AM
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You can expect a page on that game on my Odds site later this month.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 4th, 2011 at 12:46:55 AM
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Right now, just Binion's? any more casinos in NV or SoCal?
Enjoyed the game and thanks for response
Enjoyed the game and thanks for response
August 4th, 2011 at 3:24:00 AM
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Quote: sg49Right now, just Binion's? any more casinos in NV or SoCal?
Enjoyed the game and thanks for response
It's on trial until September. Eureka Casino, Mesquite, also has the game.
August 4th, 2011 at 7:49:54 AM
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Great opportunity for a cheating dealer !!!
August 4th, 2011 at 8:44:35 AM
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Quote: buzzpaffGreat opportunity for a cheating dealer !!!
How? Dealer has to reveal their hand at the end of the round.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
August 4th, 2011 at 9:29:22 AM
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By tipping off a player whether he has a stiff under that 10. Plus dealers have gotten sloppy I am sure since intro of mirror to peek under at 10 or A. Current system only lets a dealer know when under that 10, there is an A or not. He has no idea of the hole card value. In this game the dealer must protect the hole card from being seen by a player at his table. Or shades of the movie " Casino",
from a SPOOK at another table.
Not telling SWITCH anything he does not know!
from a SPOOK at another table.
Not telling SWITCH anything he does not know!
August 4th, 2011 at 9:51:33 AM
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By placing the cards in a particular angle, the dealer can use a peeker to check whether the hole card is "Ace or non-Ace" (with a '10' up-card) or "10 or non-10" (with an 'Ace' up-card).
So there are no additional security issues with the hole card in this game.
So there are no additional security issues with the hole card in this game.
August 4th, 2011 at 9:57:52 AM
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Right you are.
August 4th, 2011 at 10:36:35 AM
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Quote: SwitchBy placing the cards in a particular angle, the dealer can use a peeker to check whether the hole card is "Ace or non-Ace" (with a '10' up-card) or "10 or non-10" (with an 'Ace' up-card).
So there are no additional security issues with the hole card in this game.
Also, 10 or non 10 with a 10 up, if I'm reading correctly and 20s are discarded in some cases? So both top corners of the holecard would be checked in that case? Still not a security issue, but unusual.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 4th, 2011 at 12:30:57 PM
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Quote: rdw4potusAlso, 10 or non 10 with a 10 up, if I'm reading correctly and 20s are discarded in some cases? So both top corners of the holecard would be checked in that case? Still not a security issue, but unusual.
Correct, a 10-value card is checked both ways in the peeker.
August 7th, 2011 at 9:26:17 PM
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next question...is the intent that the dealer burns all suited BJ or 10 up BJ?
August 7th, 2011 at 9:26:59 PM
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meant 10 up suited bj
August 7th, 2011 at 9:46:57 PM
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Quote: sg49next question...is the intent that the dealer burns all suited BJ or 10 up BJ?
Dealer burns all hard 20s (not ace-9), and ten-up suited blackjacks.
I played this one today too. It seemed to take ages for the dealer to get a hand to burn. As I waited I saw the dreaded dealer 22 several times.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 8th, 2011 at 7:19:43 AM
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21 Burn Blackjack is an exciting multi-hand Blackjack that allows you to play up to 3 simultaneous hands with a BURN card option.
Saw this when I googled burn blackjack. Even more interesting was the following description for " face cards "
Aces count as either 1 or 11, dressed cards as 10, and remaining cards according to their number values.
Saw this when I googled burn blackjack. Even more interesting was the following description for " face cards "
Aces count as either 1 or 11, dressed cards as 10, and remaining cards according to their number values.
August 8th, 2011 at 7:29:23 AM
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Quote: WizardI played this one today too. It seemed to take ages for the dealer to get a hand to burn.
When trying simulations of the more gimmicky VP games (Ace Invaders, Chase the Royal, Quick Quads, Dream Card, etc) I've noticed at first all I do is wait for the gimmick/special feature to kick in. And in the meantime you can lose an awful lot of simulated credits...
Anyway, it seems gimmicky table games, even BJ-based, are no different. It's good to know that.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
August 8th, 2011 at 8:28:38 AM
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I think the waiting to get a hand that pays is why Let It Ride is slowing fading away!
August 8th, 2011 at 9:11:35 PM
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The card says under rules: dealer burns 20 and suited 20s .........................not 10 up suited bj's.
August 8th, 2011 at 9:16:48 PM
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Quote: Wizard
I played this one today too. It seemed to take ages for the dealer to get a hand to burn.
in an infinite deck, shouldn't a dealer get a 10/10 twenty 16/169 of the time? [4/13 x 4/13]
I played this one today too. It seemed to take ages for the dealer to get a hand to burn.
in an infinite deck, shouldn't a dealer get a 10/10 twenty 16/169 of the time? [4/13 x 4/13]
August 8th, 2011 at 9:58:03 PM
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Quote: sg49in an infinite deck, shouldn't a dealer get a 10/10 twenty 16/169 of the time? [4/13 x 4/13]
Yes. I think I went through about five decks waiting for one.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 12th, 2011 at 7:56:53 AM
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Played again yesterday...fun game, but rules card and pit bosses interpretation of same is very inconsistent..... interested in seeing analysis
August 12th, 2011 at 8:29:08 AM
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Quote: WizardQuote: sg49in an infinite deck, shouldn't a dealer get a 10/10 twenty 16/169 of the time? [4/13 x 4/13]
Yes. I think I went through about five decks waiting for one.
You also get a slight advantage around 20% of the time when the dealer has a 10 up and reveals that they do not have 20.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:41:49 AM
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Quote: buzzpaffI think the waiting to get a hand that pays is why Let It Ride is slowing fading away!
I agree. But at the same time, it's odd that MS Stud seems to be picking up steam. MS Stud is basically the same game in reverse, isn't it?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 13th, 2011 at 8:59:26 PM
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what is the house advantage of the 22 push in games like this and switch, as opposed to the 48 card Spanish deck?
August 15th, 2011 at 7:30:35 AM
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In this game, should basic strategy be to stand on 16 and maybe 14 or 15 if a dealer has a 10 up? With a 10 up, a dealer can only have a 2 thru 9 under, and on 5 of those 8, [2,3,4,5,6] , you would stand. Looking forward to wizard's results. I used wizard's BJ switch basic strategy as a basis on this question
August 23rd, 2011 at 10:37:00 PM
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Hi Wiz-
Have you had a chance to score this game....Love to see what you think
Have you had a chance to score this game....Love to see what you think
September 1st, 2011 at 8:08:00 PM
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what do you think you should split vs a 10 in this game?
September 1st, 2011 at 8:13:17 PM
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Quote: sg49Hi Wiz-Have you had a chance to score this game....Love to see what you think
Yes. I have not had a chance to write it up yet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 2nd, 2011 at 2:10:55 PM
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Okay, your wait is over. Please preview my new page on Burn 20 Blackjack.
As always, I welcome comments, corrections, suggestions, all that jazz.
As always, I welcome comments, corrections, suggestions, all that jazz.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 2nd, 2011 at 5:40:15 PM
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Rule 5:
"Player may double any first two cards. Play may not double after splitting. "
It should read "Player may not double after splitting."
The house edge hypotheticals at the end, do I understand correctly there would be a player advantage if BJ paid less (6:5)? My inner gambler says that can't possibly be right.
"Player may double any first two cards. Play may not double after splitting. "
It should read "Player may not double after splitting."
The house edge hypotheticals at the end, do I understand correctly there would be a player advantage if BJ paid less (6:5)? My inner gambler says that can't possibly be right.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 2nd, 2011 at 7:17:44 PM
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Players may double after splitting at Binions.
Mike, rules 3 & 5 need to be amended - please check email.
Mike, rules 3 & 5 need to be amended - please check email.
September 2nd, 2011 at 10:23:36 PM
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Quote: NareedThe house edge hypotheticals at the end, do I understand correctly there would be a player advantage if BJ paid less (6:5)? My inner gambler says that can't possibly be right.
No. The hypotheticals add to the house edge. 0.63% + 1.37% = 2.00% House Edge.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
April 10th, 2012 at 10:45:56 PM
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Is this game still live at Binions? Is it anywhere else?
April 10th, 2012 at 10:59:08 PM
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Quote: PokeraddictIs this game still live at Binions? Is it anywhere else?
Yes. No.
April 13th, 2012 at 11:46:23 AM
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Hi Switch, this is your game right? I had a couple of questions.
It looks like it is an 8 deck game now even though the original reviews were 6 deck, is that true?
The dealers were cutting more than half of the deck out. Is this correct or was this a dealer error?
If a dealer pitches a suited blackjack, and gets another one, does it stay? What about if he gets a hard 20 after a suited BJ?
Is Burn 20 in a test run or is it fully approved?
The dealers were hard for me to understand and I did not want to slow the game down asking a bunch of questions.
It seemed like a fun variation where a lot of players made some pretty obvious mistakes. Thanks in advance for your time.
It looks like it is an 8 deck game now even though the original reviews were 6 deck, is that true?
The dealers were cutting more than half of the deck out. Is this correct or was this a dealer error?
If a dealer pitches a suited blackjack, and gets another one, does it stay? What about if he gets a hard 20 after a suited BJ?
Is Burn 20 in a test run or is it fully approved?
The dealers were hard for me to understand and I did not want to slow the game down asking a bunch of questions.
It seemed like a fun variation where a lot of players made some pretty obvious mistakes. Thanks in advance for your time.
April 13th, 2012 at 11:45:39 PM
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Hi Pokeraddict, to answer your questions:-
Yes, it's my game, installed into Binions last July.
It can be either 6 or 8 decks - up to the casinos.
More than 1/2 the deck or 1/2 the shoe? If it's more than 1/2 the shoe then this is either new procedures or maybe you had a dealer who was cutting extra thick?
If the suited 'Blackjack' is with the 10 on top then it is burned along with all subsequent 20's and 'Blackjacks'.
'Burn 20' is fully approved in Nevada.
It's not the easiest game to explain quickly but it doesn't take long to get used to it. Most changes in strategy come when the dealer shows a 10 but hasn't got 20 - you split 2's, 3's, 7's and 9's along with doubling 10 and standing on Soft 18.
Yes, it's my game, installed into Binions last July.
It can be either 6 or 8 decks - up to the casinos.
More than 1/2 the deck or 1/2 the shoe? If it's more than 1/2 the shoe then this is either new procedures or maybe you had a dealer who was cutting extra thick?
If the suited 'Blackjack' is with the 10 on top then it is burned along with all subsequent 20's and 'Blackjacks'.
'Burn 20' is fully approved in Nevada.
It's not the easiest game to explain quickly but it doesn't take long to get used to it. Most changes in strategy come when the dealer shows a 10 but hasn't got 20 - you split 2's, 3's, 7's and 9's along with doubling 10 and standing on Soft 18.
April 14th, 2012 at 2:28:34 PM
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More than 1/2 the deck or 1/2 the shoe? If it's more than 1/2 the shoe then this is either new procedures or maybe you had a dealer who was cutting extra thick?
Both of the dealers cut extra thick. One cut over half of the shoe out. The front of the shoe was probably 3.5 of the 8 decks. The other dealer was probably between 4-4.5. I thought it was really odd to toss an 8 deck out there and deal only half of it +/- before a reshuffle. I thought it might have to do with how counting this game would come with more advantages than just a real game. I guess you are saying it was a dealer error.
If the suited 'Blackjack' is with the 10 on top then it is burned along with all subsequent 20's and 'Blackjacks'.
Thank you for explaining that to me. The dealers could not. A player said if the dealer had any suited blackjack it was burnt, but if they tossed it and got a hard 20 it stayed. The dealers were stumbling on the game, although one was fairly competent, he was slow to make sure he did it right. It was hard to understand a couple of them.
The game seems very interesting. I would prefer to not play it at Binions though. I am sure you will keep us posted if you get it installed in other places.
Both of the dealers cut extra thick. One cut over half of the shoe out. The front of the shoe was probably 3.5 of the 8 decks. The other dealer was probably between 4-4.5. I thought it was really odd to toss an 8 deck out there and deal only half of it +/- before a reshuffle. I thought it might have to do with how counting this game would come with more advantages than just a real game. I guess you are saying it was a dealer error.
If the suited 'Blackjack' is with the 10 on top then it is burned along with all subsequent 20's and 'Blackjacks'.
Thank you for explaining that to me. The dealers could not. A player said if the dealer had any suited blackjack it was burnt, but if they tossed it and got a hard 20 it stayed. The dealers were stumbling on the game, although one was fairly competent, he was slow to make sure he did it right. It was hard to understand a couple of them.
The game seems very interesting. I would prefer to not play it at Binions though. I am sure you will keep us posted if you get it installed in other places.
April 14th, 2012 at 5:35:42 PM
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The game is slightly more vulnerable due to the nature of the 'Burn 20'. I advised on around a 2/2.5 deck cut-off. Maybe the pit boss took it on himself to cut thicker as he felt that you knew what you were doing?
I found that there was a vast difference between both dealer aptitude as well as pit friendliness depending on the time and day of the week that you played.
As far as other installations go then although I really like the game, as well as another variant of mine, 'Power Blackjack', I think that 'Free Bet Blackjack' will take priority amongst the 3. Even though that game won't be on trial until June, the feedback has suggested that it is the one most likely to succeed.
Look out for that one at The Golden Nugget soon :-)
I found that there was a vast difference between both dealer aptitude as well as pit friendliness depending on the time and day of the week that you played.
As far as other installations go then although I really like the game, as well as another variant of mine, 'Power Blackjack', I think that 'Free Bet Blackjack' will take priority amongst the 3. Even though that game won't be on trial until June, the feedback has suggested that it is the one most likely to succeed.
Look out for that one at The Golden Nugget soon :-)
April 14th, 2012 at 5:40:03 PM
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Hey, it's 1:40 in the AM over there, isn't it. LOL
April 14th, 2012 at 6:02:07 PM
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Quote: SwitchThe game is slightly more vulnerable due to the nature of the 'Burn 20'. I advised on around a 2/2.5 deck cut-off. Maybe the pit boss took it on himself to cut thicker as he felt that you knew what you were doing?
I found that there was a vast difference between both dealer aptitude as well as pit friendliness depending on the time and day of the week that you played.
For one deck there were two other people playing $15-$25. They left at shuffle. I was betting the minimum $10 most bets just soaking the game up, I was hardly a threat. I don't think the boss was even watching. Perhaps the other people were beating them up before I got there. They colored maybe $700 between them, but they could have been there all day spewing and made a minor comeback. They were a complete fail at BS for even a regular BJ game (they doubled a lot of soft hands in bad spots, and loved doubling 9 in the wrong places), much less the advanced play this needs.
I will look forward to your other games.
April 14th, 2012 at 6:04:40 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffHey, it's 1:40 in the AM over there, isn't it. LOL
That's nothing Buzz - I'm an all-nighter. Will probably get to sleep around 4.00/4.30am - it is Saturday night afterall :-)
