Stripping and riffling dealers.

After returning from my unwelcomed loss at the black jack tables in Las Vegas this late fall, (80% loss rate, two black jacks over 3 days play and few successful double opportunities), I am wondering if anyone has information or a link to information regarding automatic shufflers. This was the first time I played in a game in which the cards were shuffled automatically and, to my discomfort, under the table. I guess I miss watching the dealer strip and riffle. I am wondering about the mechanics of these machines and how random the outcome is? Has this ever been measured? Also, can the casinos control any part of the process? I was sorry to see these machines being used everywhere—more hands per hour + bad rules = bigger profits. Happy Holidays.

Quote: robbiehood

After returning from my unwelcomed loss at the black jack tables in Las Vegas this late fall, (80% loss rate, two black jacks over 3 days play and few successful double opportunities), I am wondering if anyone has information or a link to information regarding automatic shufflers. This was the first time I played in a game in which the cards were shuffled automatically and, to my discomfort, under the table. I guess I miss watching the dealer strip and riffle. I am wondering about the mechanics of these machines and how random the outcome is? Has this ever been measured? Also, can the casinos control any part of the process? I was sorry to see these machines being used everywhere—more hands per hour + bad rules = bigger profits. Happy Holidays.

I have no trust for these machines. My history with them is similar to yours. I will not play on them. Michael claims the house edge is slightly lower with auto shufflers, becaue of some fancy bottom of the deck math, but I semi-unjokingly say they cheat. I think they have the ability to keep the count low (not that yu can count using them, but a low count still hurts you even when you aren't counting).

Here is a reference echoing my concern - "preferential shuffling" as described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting

"Several automated systems have been designed to aid detection of card counters. The MindPlay system scans card values for the entire deck after shuffling just prior to play. The ShuffleMaster Intelligent Shoe system scans card values individually as cards exit the shoe. Software called Bloodhound and Protec 21[25] allows voice input of card and bet values, which is used to determine the player edge. A more recent innovation is the use of RFID signatures embedded within the casino chips so that the table can automatically track bet amounts.[26]

Automated card-reading technology has known abuse potential in that it can be used to simplify the practice of preferential shuffling—having the dealer reshuffle the cards whenever the odds favor the players. To avoid liability concerns, some blackjack protection systems have been designed to refrain from sending data over the network until the shoe has ended.[27] Other vendors consider real-time notification to surveillance that a shoe is "hot" to be an important product feature.[28]"

If a dealer can be "signaled" to reshuffle on a hot deck, I see no reason why an autoshuffler can't just shuffle up cold decks all night long.

RFID enabled chips have nothing to do with the cards.

Persi Diaconis, former magician but now a Stanford statistics professor, is one of the authorities on "random" events such as card shuffling. The firm that manufactures the devices hired him and he said shuffling seven times was fine but don't ever shuffle an eighth time.

I don't think I lose due to frequent or premature shuffling. I just lose cause I can't add and I'm playing a game with a negative expectation.

I prefer hand shuffles, only because it provides a minute to run to the restroom, chat with the dealer, keep my eye out for the waitress, or to merely stretch my legs.

However, I will not sit at a table that does continuous shuffling.

Quote: FleaStiff

RFID enabled chips have nothing to do with the cards.

No, but it has everything to do with a card counter's betting strategy.

Face it. Nobody bets the same amount every hand. But only card counters consistantly increase their bet when the shoe is hot.

RFID chips, combined with scanners, can tell the difference between random bets, martingales, reverse martingales and card counters.

If the purpose is to alert security that someone is potentially card counting, and not to alert the pit to shuffle early, then I have no problem with it.

I have never played on a continuous shuffle table. I am wondering about the automatic shuffling machines, which seem to be everywhere now.

I remember reading that in my statistics class. Didn’t he add: six is one less than necessary but eight is one more than necessary.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: FleaStiff

RFID enabled chips have nothing to do with the cards.

No, but it has everything to do with a card counter's betting strategy.

Oh, okay. I understand now. Yes, the RFID chips would more promptly and more reliably alert the casino than a surveillance operator or floorman might. I see no way around it. Ofcourse nowadays I understand that most cardcounters do NOT vary their bets much, they merely give a signal to a confederate.

Automatic shufflers are there to (1) prevent card counting (2) deal more hands per hour (3) prevent other ways of cheating (seeing the cut-card, etc). The normal auto shufflers uses five decks. It deals a fair game. There's no reason for the auto-shuffler to cheat as it has the guaranteed HA since it can't be hacked by counters. I've played on the autoshufflers as sometimes it's the only game available at the red chip demonination.

Shufflemaster has produced a machine that detects card values on single deck deals and also keeps tracks of cards dealt from a shoe (and is used exclusively in bacarrat where the player physically deals, to prevent cheating)

But in blackjack in a shoe game, technically, the dealer shouldn't be able to shuffle until he reaches the cut card. If you find that the dealer does a shuffle before that point, it's time to leave.