Card counting and Chicago area blackjack

A couple questions on Chicago area blackjack...

1) Is card counting illegal in Illinois?

2) Has anyone been backed off a table in the Chicago area, or banned from a property for counting?

Quote: INkyatari

A couple questions on Chicago area blackjack...

1) Is card counting illegal in Illinois?

2) Has anyone been backed off a table in the Chicago area, or banned from a property for counting?

As far as I am aware, Card Counting (in your head) is not illegal anywhere, as oposed to using a device such as an iPhone app (illegal) but mere unwelcome by the casinos.

Do not gamble in Illinois, go over to NW Indiana. I went down to Joliet, went to both the casinos there, and walked out without even betting after looking at their BJ and VP games. Illinois casinos must pay higher taxes, so they adjust accordingly. I don't know what it is now, but the house edge for BJ was like 50% higher in Illinois than in Indiana (all within an hour of Chicago I'm talking here).

card counter in illinois is not illegal but the casino they can lower their max bet

I live in the area and can only attest to the following casino's. I mainly play craps- but have at least 70hrs of BJ play at GV and maybe 20 at Rivers-- this should be fairly accurate. All Chicago craps (with exception of Hollywood in aurora) have 100x odds if you have a hot shooter and a big bankroll.

Grand Victoria (Elgin, IL)- They have some hand dealt, all of which is 6:5 (maybe they have some at 3:2 in HL @ -200 to 300per). The shoe games are 3:2 8 deck usually 50-60 penetration. No RSA, double on anything, no surrender and I think split up to 3 times. I have never seen anyone backed off their but they do watch pretty close and dealers will announce "black in play" if a player isn't normally betting that big. I played craps with a guy who was up 6 or 7k in the HL room and said it was pretty obvious he was counting but never bet more than 3x the min which was 300 when he was playing. Most of the tables are maxed at 100x table min. Most of the 3:2 games will be 25, 50 or 100 at peak hours, maybe 10-20 during non peak. I think they always have at least one 8 deck table at $25 that is hand shuffled if that matters to you. The others are all SM shufflers, no CSM. Appx 35-40 miles west of Chicago proper.

Rivers (Des Plaines, IL) I have never seen hand dealt there but also haven't gone into the HL room either. I think the rules are the same at Rivers and all are 3:2. The mins are consistently higher as it is busier due to proximity to O'Hare and the City. I have only been during the day once (for lunch) and played for 20 minutes and the min was 15 on 3 tables and the rest were 25 or 50. I have never seen anyone backed off - most players when I played looked to be in town on business. The pit doesn't seem to monitor the players too much, mainly the break in dealers at the $25 who had a tough time with payouts on side bets, counting their hand and once taking an extra bust card for herself. I cant recall ever seeing a hand shuffle but could easily be wrong about that. Close to O'Hare and 25 mins to downtown -lots of hotels within walking distance and many more a very short cab ride away.

I guess if I were an AP I would favor Rivers and would just want to look like a business tourist (blue suit). GV normal clientele is not as upscale and If I wanted to look like a business tourist I would dress in khakis and company logo golf shirt and look like a manufactures rep. GV has an active poker room with some very good players so I imagine they watch those guys so I would suggest not looking like one of those guys if I were really worried about heat. If you are playing for a living you might appreciate that all IL casino's are NON SMOKING. The IL casino's cant give out free alcohol but coffee, soda and hot chocolate are free inside the casino.

I haven't played the NW Indiana casino's as neighborhood trumps smoking and and a few basis points of HE.

You had me at 50% penetration. Had me running for the door that is.

You may never see a back off here. Some may count for fun and some may attempt to break even but no serious for profit counter is going to play that 8 deck game. You didn't mention H17, which I'm assuming, so we're looking at typical Atlantic City rules made much worse with the half shoeing of every shuffle.

Although the high limit room may have better rules, the guy you mentioned just had some meaningless short term success. He won't last if he's using what I understand to be a 1-3 spread.

I don't know why the short sightedness of casino managers continues to amaze me but it does. They install ASMs, which they pay rent on, to increase the hands per hour dealt only to defeat their purpose by using 50% cuts.

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Yes, I am currently shocked at the volume of good games out here in the hinterlands of Las Vegas compared to the rest of the country. Pays to go where the most competition is.

Had my first losing session at counting doing a puny spread of $5-$50. Think I was off on a few insurance bets (won 2, lost to 2 BJs when I thought the count was too low). Of course, the other players got all the BJ's. Tough to find a table where people are constantly coming in or out unless you play $25. Colored up with a $150 loss after an hour. Not terrible by any means.

Quote: teddys

Yes, I am currently shocked at the volume of good games out here in the hinterlands of Las Vegas compared to the rest of the country. Pays to go where the most competition is.

Had my first losing session at counting doing a puny spread of $5-$50. Think I was off on a few insurance bets (won 2, lost to 2 BJs when I thought the count was too low). Of course, the other players got all the BJ's. Tough to find a table where people are constantly coming in or out unless you play $25. Colored up with a $150 loss after an hour. Not terrible by any means.

That was the same spread I used when I was learning too. Weird that pushing out 10 red chips seemed like such a big deal...felt like I was putting a big sign around my neck, "HEY I'M COUNTING CARDS LOOK AT THIS FIFTY DOLLAR BET!"

I thought you had done some low-stakes counting in the past Teddy? Anyway, good luck in the future. Never good to look at short-term results, but I'm sure I don't need to tell you that :).

Quote: 1BB

You had me at 50% penetration. Had me running for the door that is.

A week ago I played bJ for a bit after playing craps at GV. 3 of us at the table and the dealer commented at the yellow card that we don't need to hurry as the machine is still shuffling! I said bravo to him and the pit guy that it was some weak-ass penetration. He actually cut the next deck deeper but not enough to make it worth anyone's while I'm sure. I don't play a lot of BJ in IL because it is almost always a loser of a break even to barely up grind. And yes Dealer hits soft 17
I save most of my BJ for Vegas. Craps rules are better here with the exception of paying the comm upfront on Buys.

Just noticed this thread, I frequent rivers quite a bit. That being said I have played at almost all the tables at one point or another. On the main floor all but one of the tables the dealer hits on soft 17. The only table that doesn't is the only one facing the craps tables near the north entrance. Normally it is $50 min, busy nights it is $100 min. All the tables in the high limit room are $100 min and dealer stands on all 17, there is a side private room also that is open to the public if not in use by high rollers that is $200 min. As for number of decks per shoe, that depends on the side bet in play, all 21+3 games are six deck shoes, lucky lucky side bet games are eight deck shoes. Deck penetration is about 75%, dealer lays cut card length wise across the top and where it reaches is where the shoe is played to. When cutting the person must cut at least a deck and a half. As far as I know, you are only allowed to play two hands, and if you are playing more than one hand you have to play double min bet. Unless there before like 1pm the table mins are $25 by the south entrance and along the carnival games. Towards the north entrance it is $50 mins. They have about four tables that use a CSM which are located near the carnival games. High limit room has four tables, and the floor has about eighteen. As for card counting I have never seen anyone get harassed and have sat next to someone blatantly talking about counting and playing as a counter would, no one even took notice of him. Hope this all helps, also all tables pay 3-2 for blackjack.

Empress had the best blackjack around, but the casino is now Hollywood. If I play blackjack in Illinois, it's Harrah's in Joliet. They have some hand shuffle tables and the minimum was only 15. The only other place to get a hand shuffled game is the odd table in the high limit rooms at 100 minimum. I've never seen a 6:5 table. They are usually 8 decks and dealer hits 17. I have had success at the tables where I cleared 2000 over a period of time playing a hit and run type of game where I was playing for less than a shoe and walking away at some limits I set for myself. As for backing off, it's going to be subtle. Either by bringing in a dealer known to expose dealer hands, misplay hands and causing a stir for the PB. Don't expect anything great.

Note: I haven't played blackjack in Illinois since 2009-2010, but when I go to Harrah's every 6 months I always walk around and look at the tables, and the information provided is 3 months old at the time of posting.