Do You Surrender?
Poll
 | 37 votes (84.09%) | ||
| | 4 votes (9.09%) | ||
| | 3 votes (6.81%) |
44 members have voted
Not only do I see other people not surrender but sometimes I get picked on for surrendering my hands. Basically people say stuff like, "Oh, you're going to give up? What's the point of betting if you're going to just let them take half?" It's like they're saying I'm a wuss or something.
So, what are your thoughts on surrendering? And do YOU surrender, and if not why?
The reason I mentally discard the surrender option is that it is just too much baggage to try to have in my mind when I'm trying to figure out how many points I have in my hand, trying to remember to look at the dealer's Up Card before I make my decision and trying to ignore the fact that the whole darn table is playing castenets with their chips and yacking away at a mile a minute.
I've no idea what Percentage of House Edge I am adding when I fail to consider the surrender option.
Quote: HotBlondeSo I'm really surprised to see how often people do not surrender when surrender is allowed and basic strategy indicates it's the best move. I've always been very anal-retentive about sticking to my strategy and basically always do what my strategy chart tells me to do.
Not only do I see other people not surrender but sometimes I get picked on for surrendering my hands. Basically people say stuff like, "Oh, you're going to give up? What's the point of betting if you're going to just let them take half?" It's like they're saying I'm a wuss or something.
So, what are your thoughts on surrendering? And do YOU surrender, and if not why?
Yes, I always surrender when called for and that includes index plays that you won't find on the basic strategy charts. I've been picked on , ridiculed and insulted by clueless players and dealers. My response is usually to just smile and act more clueless that they are. Sure I could explain the math and maybe even convert a player or two but why should I? If everyone used surrender properly it could suddenly disappear and we don't want that to happen.
Ignore the know it alls unless they want to pay you.
I figure the most likely rule I run into when planned upcoming opportunity at a casino becomes reality is 'dealer hits soft 17' btw. I hope to confirm that pretty soon.
But if it's not offered, I stand on 16 unless the dealer has an Ace.
If the strategy says surrender, of course, you surrender.
Do you add up your cards first or look at the dealer's Up Card first?
Determine whether your hand is hard or soft?
I know that under certain circumstances the dealer will move her hand along the area marked Insurance and will do this even if I am alone at the table and have told her I never take Insurance, but I have no idea what the surrender rules are much less what the surrender strategy should be. I've heard of Early Surrender and Late Surrender but I'm somewhat opposed to the word surrender when used in relation to money. Its emotionally sort of like hearing a mugger say "Jack it over".
Quote: FleaStiff
I've no idea what Percentage of House Edge I am adding when I fail to consider the surrender option.
You are adding about 0.1% to the house edge, thus increasing the house edge by between 15 and 25%, depending on the rules.
Quote: FleaStiffIn what sequence do you consider your various options?
Do you add up your cards first or look at the dealer's Up Card first?
Determine whether your hand is hard or soft?
I first look at the up card, I guess, because it shows up first anyway. But I don't really start considering any options at that point.
When I see both of my cards, if they make a pair, I consider splitting first, otherwise if they add to 15 or 16, "surrender" is usually the first thought that surfaces, I glance at the dealer's card again, and, if it says I should, I surrender.
Quote:I know that under certain circumstances the dealer will move her hand along the area marked Insurance and will do this even if I am alone at the table and have told her I never take Insurance, but I have no idea what the surrender rules are much less what the surrender strategy should be. I've heard of Early Surrender and Late Surrender but I'm somewhat opposed to the word surrender when used in relation to money. Its emotionally sort of like hearing a mugger say "Jack it over".
I don't think there is still an Early Surrender game to be found anywhere, so you can just ignore it.
As for the strategy, it is very simple.
In S17 game, you surrender 15 against dealer's 10, and 16 against 9,10 and A. That's it. With H17 you additionally surrender 15, 17, and a pair of 8s against an A (you split 8s against an ace in S17).
Quote: HotBlondeNot only do I see other people not surrender but sometimes I get picked on for surrendering my hands. Basically people say stuff like, "Oh, you're going to give up? What's the point of betting if you're going to just let them take half?" It's like they're saying I'm a wuss or something.
Pay no attention to the people at the table.
I don't play BJ or 21 games, but I do play 3 card poker without making the sucker bets (well, mostly without). I get picked on because of that, sometimes even by the dealer. I ignore them, and remind myself that while I play through $50 for 90 minutes or more, the players picking on me are burning their bankrolls at prodigious rates.
Of course sometimes I get cards that woudl have paid well in the pair+, but in the long run I'm better off making such bets only sporadically. I suppose you've surrendered hands you might have won or pushed (I may be wrong, as I said I don't play BJ), but in the long run you're also better off. Think of that and ignore the ignoramuses around you.
People don't understand that when the EV is lower than -.5, surrender is the best option. Count cards and you'll see why it's even a better option.
Quote: boymimboPeople don't understand that when the EV is lower than -.5, surrender is the best option. Count cards and you'll see why it's even a better option.
This is why I like surrender also. When the shoe is really positive and you have your max bet out, it's great to be able to surrender your garbage to the dealer's 10 and get half that big bet back. I'm not sure what the exact math is but I would think this is a much better EV play than the same play with a neutral or negative shoe.
I like surrender, not so much for the decrease in house edge it offers (about .07%), but for the decrease in variance. Most player-favorable rules in blackjack require you to risk more money and increase your variance. Surrender is one of the few rules that is the opposite.
Quote: teddys
I like surrender, not so much for the decrease in house edge it offers (about .07%), but for the decrease in variance.
I don't know why people keep talking about "decrease in variance" as a good thing. The smaller is the variance, the more likely you are to lose. If the variance was 0, you'd be simply paying about 5 cents to the house for every $10 hand you play.
It's the variance that makes it possible for you to win sometimes (if you are not counting that is).
I try to play an even game (A-5 count or various indexes), so variance is my enemy. If I have a session where I am busting on a lot of 15s and 16s, that is worse than if I could have surrendered those hands. Doesn't make a big difference, but losing less in the short term is always nice psychologically, and helps heal the bankroll.Quote: weaselmanI don't know why people keep talking about "decrease in variance" as a good thing. The smaller is the variance, the more likely you are to lose. If the variance was 0, you'd be simply paying about 5 cents to the house for every $10 hand you play.
It's the variance that makes it possible for you to win sometimes (if you are not counting that is).
Quote: teddysDoesn't make a big difference, but losing less in the short term is always nice psychologically, and helps heal the bankroll.
Losing less is always good - short term or long - and not just psychologically :)
But it is the EV you should be worried about if you want to lose less, not the variance. The variance is as likely to make you lose more as it is to make you win more, so in the end of the day, it's neutral to you. The EV on the other hand only goes one way, and it is your enemy (as long, as it is negative, of course).
Quote: weaselmanI don't know why people keep talking about "decrease in variance" as a good thing. The smaller is the variance, the more likely you are to lose. If the variance was 0, you'd be simply paying about 5 cents to the house for every $10 hand you play.
It's the variance that makes it possible for you to win sometimes (if you are not counting that is).
Not true. Variance is independent of EV. Look at it this way--in a game of, say, roulette, both the house and the player experience the same variance. The difference is that the house's and the player's results are distributed around different midpoints--but the distributions themselves will be identical.
Is is, of course, possible to increase variance at the expense of EV, if there was some reason why you might want to do that. You could split every pair and double down on all hard 8-11 hands, for example.
Refusing to surrender when it is +EV to do so increases variance at the expense of EV.
Quote: mkl654321Not true. Variance is independent of EV.
Here we go again. What's "not true"? Who said it was dependent?
Quote: weaselmanHere we go again. What's "not true"? Who said it was dependent?
You did:
"The smaller is the variance, the more likely you are to lose." That is saying that the variable, loss, is dependent on the variable, variance, which is incorrect.
Here we go again, indeed.
Quote: NareedMaybe they should change the name of the action. Surrender does carry negative connotations. Call it a "half-bet refund," maybe or "50% discount." Something along those lines. Discount and refund carry pleasant connotations.
I think it should be called "show yellow" to embarrass even more people out of it. Maybe that keeps it around for ME.
Quote: mkl654321You did:
"The smaller is the variance, the more likely you are to lose." That is saying that the variable, loss, is dependent on the variable, variance, which is incorrect.
What exactly is incorrect?
If EV is fixed, the smaller is the variance the more is the probability that you result will be close the the EV. If EV is negative, and your result is close enough to it, that means that you lost.
What is incorrect?
Quote: dmI think it should be called "show yellow" to embarrass even more people out of it. Maybe that keeps it around for ME.
If that's your purpose, I suggest "Sucker Bet" :)
Quote: teddysAh, the good old variance versus E.V. argument rears its ugly head once again. Perhaps we can open a new section of the forum for these types of arguments?
I suppose, it is a lot less meaningful and interesting than "how we should rename surrender" or "should I really follow basic strategy even if some people might call me chicken?" kind of discussions. Sorry for derailing such a promising topic.
Quote: NareedIf that's your purpose, I suggest "Sucker Bet" :)
Yes, you have to announce: I'm going to show yellow and take the sucker bet. No hand signal allowed.
Quote: dmYes, you have to announce: I'm going to show yellow and take the sucker bet. No hand signal allowed.
Not bad. Chicken should work as well. No hand signal, just cluck like a chicken :P
Quote: weaselmanWhy even bother to play the strategy if you are going to circumvent it because of your mental blocks or because somebody may decide that you are a wuss? :)
If the strategy says surrender, of course, you surrender.
Many people don't view it as black and white. While I'm sure some can remove all emotion from any gambling for most people I'm guessing it plays a large role. Just the act of knowing you lost the bet feels bad to some people. Especially when the dealer flips over their card and busts.
Even playing 95% of basic strategy gets anyone much better than most random people that just sit down on the table. I tend to double/split on things that BS tells me not to. However when I look at the odds, doubleing on some questionable ones makes me lose .05% I believe off the total odds of BS. For those 5-6 hands that I can double, I believe I'm having more fun and that is the whole point of me sitting on a table in the first place. :)
Oh and the poll is missing my option. :) I surrender on 16 vs 10, 16 vs 9, and rarely anything else.
First I do have to say that looking at the poll I was really surprised at how many people voted that they do surrender based on my experiences at the table. And then I thought that after thinking about that I am on a forum of people who seem to take gambling seriously like me, I lost my surprise.
And yes, it did get off topic. What the heck is EV??? Lol
But yes, it's hard to feel too superior when you're handing over your chips.
is a SURRENDER rule in some games.
Also, it seems like most of the little placard cards don't specifically
mention Surrender. I generally have to ask.
Am I missing something
on how you know if the particular game/table offers Surrender ?
Quote: JohnnyQI suspect that the average strip BJ tourist doesn't even know that there
is a SURRENDER rule in some games.
Also, it seems like most of the little placard cards don't specifically
mention Surrender. I generally have to ask.
Am I missing something
on how you know if the particular game/table offers Surrender ?
I've rarely seen it mentioned if surrender is offered; the only time I've seen it explicitly stated is on one of those awful carny versions of blackjack that have all those "bonuses" (like the ability to surrender) BUT pay even money on blackjacks.
Quote: JohnnyQAm I missing something
on how you know if the particular game/table offers Surrender ?
On the $5 and $10 tables I play at, I have never seen it on a placard. You just have to ask. It's getting more and more rare.
An interesting thing I found: I would often play a $5 table at Tropicana with a continuous shuffle machine, that allowed surrender. According to the Wizard, continuous shuffle on a 6 deck game adds 0.02% to the house edge. Surrender subtracts 0.08% from the house edge.
Last year, I was there and the shuffle machine was broken. I asked to surrender, and I couldn't. The dealer said they only offered surrender tables with machines! I thought that was rather nitpicky.
Quote: JohnnyQ
Am I missing something
on how you know if the particular game/table offers Surrender ?
I usually just try to surrender, and if they let me, I conclude, that it is offered :)
I was once playing at Caesar's for a few hours, surrendering left and right, and then the dealer changed, and when I tried to surrender once more, the new dealer told me I could not do it at this table. I thought about calling the floor person, but decided against it, because it did not seem likely she'd side with me anyway, and I did not want to get the other dealer in trouble.
Quote: dudestupidAccording to the Wizard, continuous shuffle on a 6 deck game adds 0.02% to the house edge.
Are you sure? Where does he say that?
AFAIK, CSMs are supposed to lower the HE.
Quote:Surrender subtracts 0.08% from the house edge.
Last year, I was there and the shuffle machine was broken. I asked to surrender, and I couldn't. The dealer said they only offered surrender tables with machines! I thought that was rather nitpicky.
Surrender becomes much more valuable when you are counting. I am guessing, that's the reason they did not want to have it without CSM.
Quote: weaselmanI was once playing at Caesar's for a few hours, surrendering left and right, and then the dealer changed, and when I tried to surrender once more, the new dealer told me I could not do it at this table. I thought about calling the floor person, but decided against it, because it did not seem likely she'd side with me anyway, and I did not want to get the other dealer in trouble.
I find this very strange. And I could be wrong but I was under the impression that each TABLE has it's own rules and that it's basically static. I noticed that this trip around. The shoe game tables with certain minimums and particular rules were always the same tables and the double deck tables were always that as well, etc. etc.
I would've talked to the floor person. The fact that the new dealer said no after the other one walked away was odd. And even if the first dealer had mistakenly allowed you to surrender when you really weren't allowed to, maybe the floor person would've let you continue since it was what you were already doing (but then again the casinos don't want to lower their house edge lower than necessary).
Quote: HotBlondeI find this very strange. And I could be wrong but I was under the impression that each TABLE has it's own rules and that it's basically static.
Oh, I don't doubt tehy were static. It's just that the dealer I had first must have been used to dealing at a different pit, where surrender was allowed.
Quote:And even if the first dealer had mistakenly allowed you to surrender when you really weren't allowed to, maybe the floor person would've let you continue since it was what you were already doing (but then again the casinos don't want to lower their house edge lower than necessary).
Yeah, right. What are the chances of that? :)
Quote: HotBlondeweaselman, depending on the particular rules at the table you were sitting at, the dealer allowing you to surrender may have given the house a negative edge.
How many tables have you seen with "particular rules" giving you an edge?
Quote:Do you remember if you were winning on that table?
Of course I was winning! All because of the fact they let me surrender! :)
But anyway, I played BJ at MGM Grand. I was looking in particular for stand on soft 17 tables, but did not find any. Most tables though did indicate on their placards that surrender was available. I always surrender when basic strategy indicates so, but in about 3 hours play I did not witness a single surrender by anyone but me.
Quote: HeadlockI was looking in particular for stand on soft 17 tables, but did not find any.
I have found during my last trip that the casinos I played at (MGM included) has tables where the dealer stands on soft 17, but they're usually the higher table minimum tables. The one I found at the MGM were $50 and $100 minimums. They're located in front of the high limits slots room, in the area next to where the sushi restaurant is.
