Illustrious 18 ??? BS Deviations ??

I play DD, 4D, and sometimes 6D.

Pen in the DD is at most 60 %. they deal a deck and 1/4

And the 4D/6D they cut 1-2 decks out .

My question is this, if BS strategy was designed for 1 full deck , what good does the BS strategy deviations/indices do ?When there is always at least a deck or more to be played. I guess the composition of the deck(s )remaining could affect some, but in most cases there are plenty of cards left to be played w/ a few good and bad cards.

If I am going to lose , I guess I would rather take the hit or stay according to BS, as there is at least a deck left to be played .

There are no SD tables around here that are decent, their rules give it more of a HA then the shoe games.

Comments ?

There are separate Basic Strategies for multiple decks and for single decks. The Wiz has these in great detail on wizardofodds.com. Generally, you are a bit less aggressive in doubling and splitting in multiple deck BS, and a few strategy tweaks that you see in one-deck BS, such as standing on 77 or a 3-card 16 vs. 10, no longer apply.

There would be some very tiny value in being prepared to switch to single-deck BS if and when you got down to one deck or less in play, but that would only be a few hands in DD, and basically never in a shoe game.

Quote: mkl654321

...There would be some very tiny value in being prepared to switch to single-deck BS if and when you got down to one deck or less in play, but that would only be a few hands in DD, and basically never in a shoe game.

I don't understand that part of your post, mkl. Doesn't single-deck BS assume the standard set of 52 cards? Getting down to 52 cards left (if there were sufficient penetration) in DD or a shoe wouldn't change things from the way it was in the beginning, unless you were counting, would it? Please explain if I missed something. Thanks.

Quote: Doc

I don't understand that part of your post, mkl. Doesn't single-deck BS assume the standard set of 52 cards? Getting down to 52 cards left (if there were sufficient penetration) in DD or a shoe wouldn't change things from the way it was in the beginning, unless you were counting, would it? Please explain if I missed something. Thanks.

Assuming, let's say, a four-deck shoe, if three decks are dealt, the remaining 52 cards would be equivalent to a single deck at that point. I could be wrong on this, and the Wiz would be able to say for sure, but I don't see how there would be any practical difference between a 208-card shoe where 156 cards were randomly removed, and an original deck of 52 cards. Sure, the remaining 52-card slug would almost never have the exact same composition as a fresh 52-card deck, but those various compositions would have that average (if that's the word) composition. So if I stood on 77 vs. a 10, it would be because I KNEW there were only two 7s left in a single deck, but with the 52-card slug, it would be because I perceived that the average (expected) number of 7's remaining in the slug would be two.

I could be totally wrong here, though--but in any case, there wouldn't be much value in learning to switch over to single deck BS.

I appreciate the explanation, mkl. I don't think I agree, but I go along with the notion that the Wizard is probably better to answer this than either you or I. My suspicion is that the 52-card residual "slug" that you mention is more representative of the first 52 cards in a 4-deck shoe than it is of a standard deck. I would play it the same as the first cards from the shoe (again, assuming no card counting).

Quote: DonPedro

My question is this, if BS strategy was designed for 1 full deck , what good does the BS strategy deviations/indices do ?When there is always at least a deck or more to be played.

Basic Strategy is developed for every set of rules, every number of decks. You don't need to remember separate SD/DD strategy, just the few changes. Never surrender 15, surrender 77 (common sense as your primary out, 7, is depleted), stand on long 12, double 8 vs two weakest, double soft vs three weakest, do the infamous double on A8, that's all you need.

It may appear to be a lot to remember, but there are a lot of cases in counting and CDE when you make the same exceptions, so you end up grouping them. For instance, single-deck changes can be remembered as just "maximum doubling, minimum surrender, hotter deck". If you have good visual memory, it's easier to just memorize the tables for different games and counts, then just flip them in your mind like pages. I'm personally much more fond of this approach than a list of rules, it especially helps if you don't have a single place to play at.

Quote: Doc

I appreciate the explanation, mkl. I don't think I agree, but I go along with the notion that the Wizard is probably better to answer this than either you or I. My suspicion is that the 52-card residual "slug" that you mention is more representative of the first 52 cards in a 4-deck shoe than it is of a standard deck. I would play it the same as the first cards from the shoe (again, assuming no card counting).

Well, I just realized that one of my examples was wrong--the average number of 7s left in the slug, if two were in the player's hand, would be 3.5, not 2. Which pretty much suggests that any strategy adjustments made based on the presence or absence of certain cards wouldn't be valid. I still want to know if that would also put the kibosh on using single deck BS--for example, you double on 11 vs. 10 in single deck BS (but not in multi-deck BS), largely because a 6 and a 5, or a 7 and a 4, etc. are out of the deck. That wouldn't be as significant with a 52-card slug (1/4 as significant, precisely).

As you say, the Wiz can tell us, but I have the feeling that a 52-card slug shouldn't be expected to behave as a single deck after all. I am intuiting that the reason for that is similar to the reason why autoshufflers are slightly better for the player than hand-shuffled shoes.

Quote: mkl654321

As you say, the Wiz can tell us, but I have the feeling that a 52-card slug shouldn't be expected to behave as a single deck after all.

In terms of switching to SD strategy as you suggested back in your original post, I think that would only solve half the problem. Say the perfect strategy for cards 1-52 in a DD game is different than the strategy for cards 53-104. So ideally you memorize two different strategies and then switch over (you could memorize 10 different ones if you want, using smaller blocks, only limited by your ability to memorize). The problem is that the basic strategy table for a DD game already factors that in. It's the strategy for the deck as a whole, at the start, halfway through, and through the end, making the best average plays. So deviating only towards the end means you're actually playing sub-optimally at the beginning, since you're making plays then that are designed for the average situation and not just the early ones. To play optimally you'd need to reject the "average basic strategy" and memorize a new one for the first half and a different one for the second.

Now that said, I doubt, as MKL says in his most recent post, that the halves or whatever of the DDs actually are significantly different, and if they were I REALLY doubt there is an advantage to learning multiple strategies for different levels of play through the DD.

Quote: sunrise089

... Now that said, I doubt, as MKL says in his most recent post, that the halves or whatever of the DDs actually are significantly different, and if they were I REALLY doubt there is an advantage to learning multiple strategies for different levels of play through the DD.

If the halves of the double deck are different (or the 1st 52 cards of a shoe are different from the last 52) in such a manner as to justify a changed strategy, then it has to be because of just which cards have been removed from the set. To me, appropriately making such an adjustment requires card counting -- if you haven't kept track of what cards have been played, there is no logical reason to change your strategy.