Most common single BJ Basic Strategy error?
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Ignoring the really dumb errors you see like hitting a hard 14 against a 6 or standing on 15 vs. a 10, what mistake do you see most when you're playing?
]Quote: benbakdoffWith the exception of doubling 10 vs 10 I see these mistakes every time I play and it doesn't take very long. Here's a couple more: Not doubling A7 when appropriate and not using or misusing surrender when available.
I see most of these when Im at work.
1. Not hitting soft 18 against a 9,10,A
2. Not doubling a soft 17 and 18 when appropriate
3. Not soft doubling generally
4. Not doubling an 11 against a 10, A (when dealer hits soft 17)
5. Not doubling a 9 against 3, 4, 5, 6
6. Not splitting 99 against everything but a 7, 10, A.
Perhaps these are just the errors that bother me the most. Tops is soft 18 against a 9, 10, A though- it is like people think they have a good hand at 18.
If it was really a good rule for the house more (all?) casinos would offer it.Quote: IbeatyouracesI get dealers tell me that surrender is a bad rule for the players and a good rule for the house.
Not knowing about surrender is also a biggie. Saved me quite a bit at my last visit. I'd wager just under half of players know about surrender and of that number half consider it throwing money away.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIf it was really a good rule for the house more (all?) casinos would offer it.
It's a good rule for the player because there are situations where a player can gain EV by using the surrender option. Whether or not any given group of players uses or misuses that option isn't relevant.
I think that most casinos don't offer it because most unskilled players would never even consider it. Giving up half your bet to save the other half goes against the grain of most recreational players. They would definitely NEVER surrender again if they found out that underneath that scary 10, the dealer had a 6, and then the dealer busted and paid everybody except that guy who surrendered.
Another common player error is standing on soft 17.
Why does that surprise you?Quote: IbeatyouracesI was actually surprised the other day when a guy hit A7 vs 10 and on the very next hand hit 12 vs 3.
Both are correct according to the strategy card I carry.
Quote: dmA costly error I have seen often is forgetting the double down option after splitting non-A's. Say 11 total after second card against dealer six. Maybe they don't know it's allowed.
Actually, in most casinos, it isn't allowed. Anyone who normally played in a casino that didn't allow it would probably not even realize it if it WAS allowed.
Doubling 10v10 is also often the right play, depending on the rules and count.
Treating 18 as a great hand is perhaps the most common, but followed closely by passive play against 7-8 cards, which often includes even standing on 15v7.
Quote: P90I don't count standing 16v10 to be an error, it's the right move for long 16, it's the right move at ever-so-slightly positive count, so it's often just the right play by default.
Doubling 10v10 is also often the right play, depending on the rules and count.
Treating 18 as a great hand is perhaps the most common, but followed closely by passive play against 7-8 cards, which often includes even standing on 15v7.
It mentioned BASIC strat.
For what it's worth, the standard BS chart tells you to *surrender* 16v10. If you can't surrender in a game that offers it, it means you have 3+ cards, in which case you stand. As such, in any LS game, hitting 16v10 is always an error, except possibly in split hands. But you only split 88 against 10, and even in that rare case, you have 4+ cards out, limiting hitting 16v10 to very few specific compositions.
Charts that tell one to hit 16v10 are true to the methods they have been derived with, but highly misleading, which is a mild form of saying "in error", even though the error is due to the method. Any player with access to LS games should learn to stand on 16v10 if can't surrender, since that is the right play under all but exceedingly rare circumstances.
Quote: P90Yes, but basic strategy is not a codex of laws. It's a set of suggestions that are optimal under default conditions, and there are good reasons they call it basic. With laws, you can say "no matter how little you break it, it's a crime", with systems like BS you can't. Making the right move is never an error, even if it's a non-BS move.
For what it's worth, the standard BS chart tells you to *surrender* 16v10. If you can't surrender in a game that offers it, it means you have 3+ cards, in which case you stand. As such, in any LS game, hitting 16v10 is always an error, except possibly in split hands. But you only split 88 against 10, and even in that rare case, you have 4+ cards out, limiting hitting 16v10 to very few specific compositions.
Charts that tell one to hit 16v10 are true to the methods they have been derived with, but highly misleading, which is a mild form of saying "in error", even though the error is due to the method. Any player with access to LS games should learn to stand on 16v10 if can't surrender, since that is the right play under all but exceedingly rare circumstances.
??? Lacking the ability to surrender, the optimal play is to hit 16 vs. 10. The only exception is if you are playing single deck, and your hard 16 is comprised of three or more cards--then stand. In any shoe game without surrender, hitting is always the best play (assuming, obviously, that you are not counting).
Quote: mkl654321??? Lacking the ability to surrender, the optimal play is to hit 16 vs. 10. The only exception is if you are playing single deck, and your hard 16 is comprised of three or more cards--then stand. In any shoe game without surrender, hitting is always the best play (assuming, obviously, that you are not counting).
Are you positive? While most CDE apply only to SD and fewer to DD games, the exception for S16v10 at 3+ cards is one that applies to shoe games as well, to the best of my knowledge. The relative advantage of hitting over standing under default conditions is so minuscule that it reverses with even such a small touch.
Some of the more detailed basic strategy chart calculators even suggest to stand on 16v10 outright if can't surrender (while hitting in no-surrender games).
Quote: P90Are you positive? While most CDE apply only to SD and fewer to DD games, the exception for S16v10 at 3+ cards is one that applies to shoe games as well, to the best of my knowledge. The relative advantage of hitting over standing under default conditions is so minuscule that it reverses with even such a small touch.
Yep, positive. The 3-card rule only applies to single decks. Which makes sense, since the third card isn't enough to change the composition of a six-deck shoe to a point where you should change the play from "hit" to "stand".
If you think about it, you should be MORE inclined to hit hard 16 against a 10 in a shoe game, all other things being equal. That "strategy calculator" you are using is flawed---particularly, as you point out, when it recommends standing in one instance and hitting in another, identical instance.
Quote: mkl654321Yep, positive. The 3-card rule only applies to single decks. Which makes sense, since the third card isn't enough to change the composition of a six-deck shoe to a point where you should change the play from "hit" to "stand".
I respect the practice of replying from memory alone. But this is a relatively obscure point where it might be worth the while to check with hard data. On this particular matter I've heard of this CDE applying to multi-deck games from every single source I've consulted.
Even Wizard's lists extend the stand long 16v10 exception past SD: https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix3b.html
Quote: mkl654321That "strategy calculator" you are using is flawed---particularly, as you point out, when it recommends standing in one instance and hitting in another, identical instance.
Actually it recommends always standing when can't surrender in surrender-enabled games, and hitting on two cards only in no-surrender games. Since you will rarely face 16v10 H/S choice in surrender-enabled games, and in almost all of those cases standing is better, it's the right recommendation, ignoring the exceptionally rare case for several common ones.
Quote:*One exception is 16v10 with surrender. If surrender is allowed and you have a two-card 16 versus a 10 up, you surrender the hand and never reach this table. So, if you do reach this table, your 16 must be made up of three or more cards or the product of a split, and the other cards are probably small cards. With fewer small cards left, the dealer is more likely to bust. So you stand and hope the dealer busts. The difference is tiny, about .002%. The fact is, if you have 16 against a ten, you are probably going to lose no matter what you do.
Quote: mkl654321Actually, in most casinos, it isn't allowed. Anyone who normally played in a casino that didn't allow it would probably not even realize it if it WAS allowed.
DAS not allowed? It sure is in Vegas. Don't know about the "most". No telling what rules might exist at the NAC's (NA is short for those guys that kicked Custer's butt).
Quote: rdw4potusnot hitting/doubling A7 is very high on my list. So is not hitting 12 against a 2 or 3.
I agree. Especially the 12 against the 2 or 3. Because if they do (like I always do) everyone else will say "it's a bad move." Seems to bring out the most comments from others. Shows everyone else's ignorance.
.Quote: mkl654321Actually, in most casinos, it isn't allowed. Anyone who normally played in a casino that didn't allow it would probably not even realize it if it WAS allowed.
In the Wizard's blackjack survey, DAS is allowed in all but 27 of his 186 rows. It is far more prevalent to be able to Double after split than not.
Quote: boymimbo.
In the Wizard's blackjack survey, DAS is allowed in all but 27 of his 186 rows. It is far more prevalent to be able to Double after split than not.
Yes and no. Most casinos now have some kind of bastardized BJ, like "Party Pit" or "Fun 21", where blackjacks pay even money or some such horrible modification. Most games like that do allow DAS. It's very rare to find a game with decent rules (like, 3:2, S17) that also allows DAS.
Poker Palace
Main Street Station
Fremont (double deck and $3 only)
Hooters (single deck)
Sam's Town
California
The casinos in the list below offer a combination of DAS and no DAS games:
Four Queens (Single and double decks only)*
Golden Nugget (double deck)*
El Cortez (single deck)*
Excalibur*
Fitzgeralds (double deck)*
Binions (single deck)*
Tuscany (single deck)*
Harrah's Corporation
Paris (double deck)*
Planet Hollywood (double deck)*
Caesar's Palace (double deck)*
Ballys (double deck)*
Flamingo (double deck)*
Rio (double deck)*
Note that the MGM group do not have any blackjack games that do not offer DAS in blackjack.
The biggest mistake though is taking even money. I would estimate that 80-90% of all players will take even money in this country.
Quote: clarkacalNot only do most players not hit a soft 18, many grumble and complain when you do.
this....
I thought about writing the dealer up for arguing with me on a live game, but declined. Another dealer got into an argument with me when she told a player to hit hard 13 against a 3. As she was returning from break, I told her that if she didn't want to give correct basic strategy, then she shouldn't do it at all. She threw a fit and stomped back towards her game.
A very close second place is 4/4. Many players believe in the old and inaccurate adage of "Never split anything that begins with F". I've taken massive amounts of crap when I do this as a player. I've had to defend players who split their fours against a five or six. Far more common is the dreaded double down on hard eight. I used to speak up but rarely do anymore because people think I'm a "bad guy for the house".
I think teaching dealers basic strategy would be an excellent idea. Unfortunately, the house would never go for it.
Quote: PGBusterIn my five years in the business in Iowa, I definitely have to say its hitting/doubling soft 18. I was supervising one day and a player asked what the correct move was with A/7. I told the player to hit (It was versus a face card). The dealer began arguing with me, saying the player should stand. Fortunately for me, my shift manager came over and took my side. (I usually carry a copy of the Wizard's BJ strategy card in my pocket. I've also carried his UTH/M-Stud strategy card in my pocket as well).
I thought about writing the dealer up for arguing with me on a live game, but declined. Another dealer got into an argument with me when she told a player to hit hard 13 against a 3. As she was returning from break, I told her that if she didn't want to give correct basic strategy, then she shouldn't do it at all. She threw a fit and stomped back towards her game.
A very close second place is 4/4. Many players believe in the old and inaccurate adage of "Never split anything that begins with F". I've taken massive amounts of crap when I do this as a player. I've had to defend players who split their fours against a five or six. Far more common is the dreaded double down on hard eight. I used to speak up but rarely do anymore because people think I'm a "bad guy for the house".
I think teaching dealers basic strategy would be an excellent idea. Unfortunately, the house would never go for it.
Why are you arguing with dealers in front of the players? Is it possible that the dealer who told the player to hit the hard 13 against a 3 was a card counter? It's the correct play at TC -2 in a shoe game. There are many other index plays including the dreaded doubling of that hard 8.
If a player asks me directly about a particular play, I'll always refer them to basic strategy. If I'm not asked I say nothing. I don't want the pit critters to hear me explaining the game in depth. I prefer to let them keep thinking that they're smarter than me.
Quote: stlcardinalfan28I always stay on a7 no matter what. I feel like people give me looks and I really don't care. I haven't been to the casino much lately though. A little broke. Did win over a grand last week though playing a new game 10-hand hold'em at ameristar st. charles casino. It's a luck game but I think their is some strategy in it too. Blackjack is always my favorite though.
It's your hand and your money and you have the right to play it any way you choose. There is no team, no flow of the cards or no making others lose- just your hand against the dealer's. Most losers like to blame others for their misfortunes.
To limit your losses, strive to play perfect basic strategy.
