How much longer do counters realistically have?

Quote: SOOPOO

Vulturing is not a direct hit. Someone has to hit that must hit progressive. The coin in to get there is a positive for the casino.
I believe it does have a negative impact, as real APs take that money away from the casino, while ‘regular’ players ‘recycle’ it back to the casino in most cases.

no
yes, there should be a big scores for the slots to be a draw
but the APs are able to scope out when it is advantageous - when the machine is close enough to the big hits
the ploppies - the vast majority of players - don't have that desire or ability
in various ways the machines reveals their potential profitability to the APs
if they wanted to they could completely disguise when the big hit was coming
there could be no clues as there are now
if they wanted to they could make the machine's payouts 100% random and cut way, way down on the free play
if that was done the APs would have no ability to obtain an advantage
but they don't do that - for the same reason they don't completely 86 card counters

for the casinos to draw big players need to believe they can win big - that there is a way for them to do that
a very few can, but the vast majority can't or aren't willing to put in the necessary work to do that -

and the aggregate win of the casinos is much, much greater than the aggregate win of the APs

they're making so much $ they don't need to collar the APs more than they already do

from the link:

"slot advantage play has been a big deal over the last few years. A lot of the older counters have transitioned into that"

and -

"organized groups are using slot advantage play to take millions from properties across the country"

and one more time worth repeating - you didn't seem to get it the first time

CASINOS COULD COMPLETELY END PROFITABLE CARD COUNTING BY DEALING ONLY WITH CONTINUOUS SHUFFLING MACHINES

but they don't do that




https://cdcgaming.com/security-expert-says-slot-advantage-play-costing-casino-industry-tens-of-millions-nationwide/

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Quote: DRich

Quote: TumblingBones

My point here is that I suspect one reason you and I are viewing this issue differently is due to differences in our programming backgrounds. So before debating this point further it might help clarify our past experiences.. Mine is about 30% Assembler, 30% C, 30% Java, and the rest mostly Perl, Python, Fortran, and R. I would also say about 50% of my code had to deal to some degree with event-driven, near-realtime stuff (i.e., ASTs, interrupt handling, etc.) and very unreliable computing/comms environments (e.g., tactical networks). I would be interested in hearing where you are coming from.

I would guess my past was probably 20% FORTRAN, 60% C, and a little of about 10 other languages.

I have no interest in debating credentials, but I will stick to the only point I was trying to make. Show me any computer program that does more than it is instructed to do. Obviously, disregarding compiler bugs which are just doing what they were programmed to do.
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Look at the diagram -https://x.com/0xCygaar/status/1875610062804099203
Read the whitepaper -https://whitepaper.virtuals.io/what-are-virtual-agents

Try to keep up.

Quote: DRich

AI is not some autonomous thing, it is a software program that does exactly what its programmer told it to do.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: DRich

AI is not some autonomous thing, it is a software program that does exactly what its programmer told it to do.

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I have no idea what you are trying to prove with that.

Quote: DRich

I have no idea what you are trying to prove with that.

I think the point is that agents behave essentially autonomously. You can try them online for free, you give them a prompt like "make me a million dollars" and they keep coming up with stuff until they run out of free tokens (the idea being you then start paying). It is entirely autonomous after the initial prompt. So the point is agents don't do what the programmer tells it.

At the moment agents are fairly primitive and would be nowhere close to coming up with an effective system of game protection. They would make a ton of errors. The common argument with this type of thing is that they will get better and better and will one day be perfect. I'm not really sure about that: I use AI a lot and it makes so many errors when trying to do anything difficult I question whether it will ever be capable of doing anything useful without human input.

Ai should use secondary methods. It should cross-check results or use multiple approaches to ensure accuracy. I suppose they are working on that part. Maybe you can’t get it error free, but achieving self-correcting feedback would get us a lot closer.

Quote: rxwine

Ai should use secondary methods. It should cross-check results or use multiple approaches to ensure accuracy. I suppose they are working on that part. Maybe you can’t get it error free, but achieving self-correcting feedback would get us a lot closer.
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The problem with AI is it feeds off data including false data

I am certain any AP could outsmart an AI by simply trying different false data methods until the AI was outwitted.

An example would be the guy in the card counting documentary the Wizard is in where he placed large denom chips in his pants legs so the computer would read the tracking chips and would register large bets while he actually made smaller ones on the actual felt to fool the pit boss

Start throwing false data at AI and watch the hilarity.

I haven’t seen that video but that’s unlikely. At RW Vegas for example the sensors are so weak they are able to pick up the chips only in that specific circle and if the stack is too high it sometimes doesn’t register all chips.

So the guy has it sewed right above his knee and presses it to underneath the table right below his betting circle? The other problem with that is he’d have to first register the chip to his account and then immediately set it up above his knee - if too much time passes the chip is no longer assigned to him. Assuming this would work at all.

The other reason it wouldn’t work is the dealers are constantly checking chip count on the table against what the tracking system displays on the screen. Any disparity is immediately rectified by lifting and dropping the stack until everything gibes.

RW is the only casino at which I play where the bets are tracked automatically.

Quote: darkoz

The problem with AI is it feeds off data including false data

Yeah, that's kind of why I brought it up. A human detecting something may use several methods to try to determine something. . A good counter also does several things to avoid that detection. You can parse them out.

Quote:

I am certain any AP could outsmart an AI by simply trying different false data methods until the AI was outwitted.

An example would be the guy in the card counting documentary the Wizard is in where he placed large denom chips in his pants legs so the computer would read the tracking chips and would register large bets while he actually made smaller ones on the actual felt to fool the pit boss

Start throwing false data at AI and watch the hilarity
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Now that I think about it, the argument that the casinos don't care about small time AP probably not completely true. If you made every ap move obvious every day, would they really leave you alone? I'm not so sure.

Anyone want to just outright tell the casino personnel what you're doing even if it's just some successful tiny skimming? I don't want to test that.

Quote: MDawg

I haven’t seen that video but that’s unlikely. At RW Vegas for example the sensors are so weak they are able to pick up the chips only in that specific circle and if the stack is too high it sometimes doesn’t register all chips.

So the guy has it sewed right above his knee and presses it to underneath the table right below his betting circle? The other problem with that is he’d have to first register the chip to his account and then immediately set it up above his knee - if too much time passes the chip is no longer assigned to him. Assuming this would work at all.

The other reason it wouldn’t work is the dealers are constantly checking chip count on the table against what the tracking system displays on the screen. Any disparity is immediately rectified by lifting and dropping the stack until everything gibes.

RW is the only casino at which I play where the bets are tracked automatically.
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It's in the documentary on Netflix. It's a 90 minute doc. The Wizard gives a few interviews.

He is shown doing it but of course that is easily edited yea or nay.

You would be surprised what an AP can do. I told you I could (and still can) get thousands of dollars in Freeplay with a $25 investment at Baccarat and you don't believe that's possible either. So there you go.

Actually, it would never work at all.

The moment the computer tracking system showed a payout that was different from the chip stack the jig would be up. At RW the tracking system is not used just for tracking bets but also to direct payouts.

I could see it turned into a criminal offense where the player was trying to trick the system into overpaying him, if the casino got sufficiently incensed and ever figured out what was going on.

Just yet another example of D.Oz not thinking things through. But when you have no real world experience with something (I do), that's where theory and reality sometimes diverge, which is the issue I have with a lot of people on these forums.

Quote: MDawg

Actually, it would never work at all.

The moment the computer tracking system showed a payout that was different from the chip stack the jig would be up. At RW the tracking system is not used just for tracking bets but also to direct payouts.

I could see it turned into a criminal offense where the player was trying to trick the system into overpaying him, if the casino got sufficiently incensed and ever figured out what was going on.

Just yet another example of D.Oz not thinking things through. But when you have no real world experience with something (I do), that's where theory and reality sometimes diverge, which is the issue I have with a lot of people on these forums.
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This statement has to be really idiotic.

You telling me that if I placed a $25 chip on the felt and had $2500 in my knees that the dealer would actually pay me $2525 on a winning bet?

Is there any table game in the world where the dealer doesn't actually look at the chips on the table?

It's comments like yours that if the Wizard didn't independently verify you actually played would make everything you say suspect.

And a criminal charge? You kidding?

All the guy has to say is he put $25 on the table in plain view and expected to get paid $25 by the live dealer who would have to be a complete moron to place $2525 in payouts next to a single green chip.

The over all problem is that you constantly open your mouth when you have not only little idea but no personal experience on the topic at hand.

Incessantly.

Go play at a table game at a casino like RW Vegas where rfid chip bet tracking is used then return to enlighten us with something other than unknowing talk.

Quote: MDawg

Go play at a table game at a casino like RW Vegas where rfid chip bet tracking is used then return to enlighten us with something other than unknowing talk.
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No you enlighten us.

Are you claiming that dealers don't verify the chips in front of them?

It's a simple question for a guy who claims to play table games

Quote: MDawg

Actually, it would never work at all.

Good Advantage Players who are persistent, never say never, they attempt to figure out how to beat the system and oftentimes do.


I'm always hearing how this, that, or the other thing can't be done anymore or never could, and yet it's being done.

Im not referring to anything specific but in general gambling situations of all kinds.