churn
churn
Joined: Dec 30, 2010
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December 30th, 2010 at 1:35:31 PM permalink
In Casino Vienna, there is a side bet in BJ. The game is on a 6 deck automatic shuffler. This side bet is allowed as much as the normal bet i.e. if you bet 10 on your box, 10 allowed on this bet. It pays 5/2 if the dealer bust, regardless of the outcome on the original bet.

Last time I played there, I entered with 200 and made that 1.500 in half an hour by playing also side bet however I still wonder the odds on that.

Thanks for the help,
Wizard
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Wizard
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December 30th, 2010 at 2:44:39 PM permalink
I wrote my blackjack appendix 2 for this kind of question. The following table shows the odds for a six-deck game, where the dealer stands on a soft 17, dealer does not check for blackjack (the likely rule in Austria), and wins pay 3 to 2. I assume your 5/2 is "for one" odds.

Card Prob bust Expected value
Ace 0.115473 -0.711318
2 0.353504 -0.116240
3 0.374194 -0.064515
4 0.395805 -0.010488
5 0.418406 0.046015
6 0.422842 0.057105
7 0.261936 -0.345160
8 0.243693 -0.390768
9 0.229242 -0.426895
10 0.212471 -0.468823


So you can see there is a player advantage against a dealer 5 and 6.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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December 30th, 2010 at 2:48:18 PM permalink
I read that differently, that you make the bet up front and that it does pay 5-to-2. When you average the probability of busting from your table, the house edge would be 1.33%.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizard
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Wizard
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December 30th, 2010 at 3:04:34 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I read that differently, that you make the bet up front and that it does pay 5-to-2. When you average the probability of busting from your table, the house edge would be 1.33%.



Under that rule, I agree with the 1.33%. I might add the probability of busting is 28.1921%. You're probably right on the interpretation of the question.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
wernerw
wernerw
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January 1st, 2011 at 4:49:13 AM permalink
Being Austrian, too, I can clear this up:
Mathextremist is right. It is a side bet you have to make up front. So the house edge is 1.33%.

Austrian Casinos still have the european rule (no peak), continuous shufflers as OP indicated. They stand on soft 17, double on any, double after split, resplit Aces, one card only on split aces.

Could not find the correct basic strategy for that here, but I think I got it all by mixing 2 different strategy sheets.

House edge for european rules is .63, since it is double on any I estimate the house edge around .5, which is pretty fair imo.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 1st, 2011 at 8:24:57 AM permalink
Looking at these house edges < 1% for a dealer bust bet, I'm surprised casino managers okayed the bet to be put in.
With the house edge so low in standard blackjack and so many players well-versed in the game, casinos turn to side bets with higher house edges to pump up the table hold.
Also, the count really affects dealer's busting, so the bet described here can be an advantage play for the card counter, especially with an edge of < 1%.

The closest thing I've seen is the "Bust It!" bet that pays on a dealer's bust - IF the dealer busts with three cards only. The house edge on that is between 8.1% to 6.2%, depending on the number of decks, with a variable pay table depending on the card that the dealer busts with. (Busting with a ten pays 3:1, but busting with a six pays 15:1). The bust it bet has a bonus for "crazy eights," busting on three 8's at 50:1, and busting on three suited 8's at 200:1. The third day the bet was at the Fiesta Henderson, a lucky player hit three suited 8's with a dime on the bet - $2,000. A young woman who is just old enough to both gamble and be a break-in dealer hit it. She immediately smootched her boyfriend and cried, saying "it's so beautiful...." fanning her face, - then she ran to the cage with 20 black and cashed out! (Na-HA!)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
wernerw
wernerw
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January 1st, 2011 at 9:17:22 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Looking at these house edges < 1% for a dealer bust bet, I'm surprised casino managers okayed the bet to be put in.
With the house edge so low in standard blackjack and so many players well-versed in the game, casinos turn to side bets with higher house edges to pump up the table hold.
Also, the count really affects dealer's busting, so the bet described here can be an advantage play for the card counter, especially with an edge of < 1%.

The closest thing I've seen is the "Bust It!" bet that pays on a dealer's bust - IF the dealer busts with three cards only. The house edge on that is between 8.1% to 6.2%, depending on the number of decks, with a variable pay table depending on the card that the dealer busts with. (Busting with a ten pays 3:1, but busting with a six pays 15:1). The bust it bet has a bonus for "crazy eights," busting on three 8's at 50:1, and busting on three suited 8's at 200:1. The third day the bet was at the Fiesta Henderson, a lucky player hit three suited 8's with a dime on the bet - $2,000. A young woman who is just old enough to both gamble and be a break-in dealer hit it. She immediately smootched her boyfriend and cried, saying "it's so beautiful...." fanning her face, - then she ran to the cage with 20 black and cashed out! (Na-HA!)



Well, it's not <1%, it seems to be 1.33%. Advantage play is not possible since they use automatic shufflers.

And believe me, at least in the Austrian casino I visit occasionally, I cannot see many "well-versed" players. If I try to compare the skill level to Vegas, I am sure players are more skilled in Vegas than here.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 1st, 2011 at 11:50:00 AM permalink
Quote: wernerw

Advantage play is not possible since they use automatic shufflers.


I guess that a continuous shuffler would be a requirement for the bet's use. A huge disadvantage in many places. Vegas has huge numbers of pitch and shoe games, the vast majority. But, it's an advantage for Shuffle Master, who makes these machines.

The number of side bets for BJ is tremendous, no single bet is really dominant, though Lucky Ladies, Push Your Luck, Bust it, Pair the Square, and Lucky Lucky are prominent. The bad beat progressive bet of MathExtremist was picked up by a distributor and endorsed by Max Rubin.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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